Something Nice Back Home (410)

[knowles2]

first off, what's with Jack & the drugs/booze combo ? (it's his business & his life, but I'm just wondering - surely talking to Hurley or visions of his old man wouldn't have made him suicidal...)

also, nobody else picked up on the fact that the mercs were still alive & well when they were supposed to be, u know, dead ? (after Ben set Cerberus loose on them)

Nope not surprise, Wigmor no fool and would of known the weapons at Ben disposal and came up with counter measures, I was expecting the majority of them to survive. This been a game Wigmor and ben been playing for to long to be defeated by smokey. , plus ben new he was not going to wipe them out, as he was eager to leg it of Jakub cabin. I have always suspected Smokey is not as powerful as we have been led to believe, seem to have a bigger bark than actual bite.

[majorsal]

I really don't like the way Jack treats Kate either. I think he wants her to be something that she's not, and even though she tries to be, ultimately she'll fail because that's not who she is. That's why I've always enjoyed her relationship with Sawyer, because as messed up as Sawyer is, he likes Kate just the way she is.

when i think about it, kate kind of irks me too because she *lets* him treat her that way. she's more honest and herself with sawyer, but she gets nervous and wants to please jack and then he starts being judgmental... i like kate with jack the most, even though i like kate and sawyer together too. i think kate and jack can make a better couple, because there's more stability when combining their personalities. i think sawyer would almost be pushing those bad girl tendencies and push kate to not liking him.

argh, this woman can't win! just combine sawyer and jack's personalities and they'd make a person mate for kate!

but kate needs to really let loose with jack and stand up to him BIG time. if she doesn't, he'll run over her, even though he's really not a bad guy.




sally

[majorsal]

Remember Jack's relationship with Sarah, and how that ended. He's a compulsive fixer, and if everything is going right in his life ("Just because I'm happy doesn't mean that this isn't real, Hurley") he self-destructs so that he has something to fix.

He seems to be self-destructing with Kate now (in the flash-forward), and for no particular reason. Obviously the ghost of his father is pushing him toward the edge, but I have yet to see what makes "The Beginning of the End" Jack into "Through the Looking Glass" Jack. Maybe its the actual conversation with Ghost Dad that we haven't seen yet.

Maybe Ghost Dad makes him feel guilty for leaving people behind on the island and lying about their deaths in the plane crash, and convinces him that he has to go baack.

do you notice that jack's is creeping towards being like his father? he's on his way to being an alcoholic, he can't make his relationships work, he's...




sally

[SoulReaver]

Nope not surprise, Wigmor no fool and would of known the weapons at Ben disposal and came up with counter measures, I was expecting the majority of them to survive. This been a Wigmor and ben have been playing the game to long, to be defeated by smokey. , plus ben new he was not going to wipe them out, as he was eager to leg it of Jakub hut. This may be suspect smokey is not as powerful as I believe, seem to have a bigger bark than actual bite.

ah...so basically they either bestowed nigh-supernatural abilities upon Widmore's mercs, or they simply retconned the power of Cerberus and now made it about as dangerous as tobacco smoke (and superfluous to the show. talk about smoke & mirrors)

bummer I hope not, that kinda plot device would put even SG1 to shame :/

[KatG]

Remember Jack's relationship with Sarah, and how that ended. He's a compulsive fixer, and if everything is going right in his life ("Just because I'm happy doesn't mean that this isn't real, Hurley") he self-destructs so that he has something to fix.

I guess compulsive fixer sounds better than control freak, but it's pretty much the same. And yes, he is self-destructing his relationship with Kate, because for the first time in a long time he is happy and that just won't do for Captain Hero Jack.

first off, what's with Jack & the drugs/booze combo ? (it's his business & his life, but I'm just wondering - surely talking to Hurley or visions of his old man wouldn't have made him suicidal...)

See above. Jack likes to fix or control things. Because he can't seem to do that he medicates himself. His father was an alcoholic, and that kind of thing tends to run in families. Some of the worst addicts are those who watched their father/mother do the same thing.

when i think about it, kate kind of irks me too because she *lets* him treat her that way. she's more honest and herself with sawyer, but she gets nervous and wants to please jack and then he starts being judgmental... i like kate with jack the most, even though i like kate and sawyer together too. i think kate and jack can make a better couple, because there's more stability when combining their personalities. i think sawyer would almost be pushing those bad girl tendencies and push kate to not liking him.

argh, this woman can't win! just combine sawyer and jack's personalities and they'd make a person mate for kate!

but kate needs to really let loose with jack and stand up to him BIG time. if she doesn't, he'll run over her, even though he's really not a bad guy.




sally

No. Jack's not a "bad" guy, but he's not a "good" guy either. He's way to messed up. And I seriously don't think Kate will ever be truly happy with him, because she'll always feel like she has to prove herself to him.

[YodaMate]

Poor Jack, history repeats itself. What's interesting here is that it's not entirely Jack's doing ; the Island is using his flaws to break him, to make him want to return.

The manipulations have been as precise as the incisions Juliet made to heal him, making perfect use of Jack's shortcomings. An actual rational conversation with his father at this stage would've been counter-productive to the Island's goal ; instead, Jack is haunted and believes he is going crazy. Hurley was the perfect messenger in this instance.

Jack's problem is that he is still a Man of Science. And he is missing much of the information that we possess, he doesn't know that Smokey is a shape-shifter and is fond of taking on the form of dead people. He still knows too little about the Island to realise what's going on. And he lacks the Faith (in himself or otherwise) to suspect that anything else could be going on besides stress and insanity.

An interesting twist raised in this episode : we've seen Locke use drugs to communicate with the Island before, but it is possible that certain medications can prevent the Island from communicating ? That could potentially explain Jack's far future addiction, his need to acquire the drugs. Of course, the Island could be choosing not to reveal itself when Jack/Hurley are drugged up in order to trick them.

Jack has his destructive tendencies pre-prepared, but it does take two to tango. Kate was correct to take offence at Jack's paranoia, but she was wrong to insist that Jack trust her and not reciprocate by letting her fiance know the truth. That she would honour her obligations to Sawyer over complete honesty with Jack tells me that she still has feelings for Sawyer.

The love quadrangle has emerged clearly this season. Juliet loves Jack. Jack loves Kate but can't bring himself to trust her fully in the present or future (remember, on the Island Jack still doesn't know what her crime was). Kate, meanwhile is genuinely torn between Jack and Sawyer and she is attracted to both of them in different ways for different reasons. Which leaves both of them wondering, is it simply a matter of who is available at the time, that when she becomes angry at one will she simply return, perhaps inevitably, to the other ?

Further complicating the matter, is that Ben loves/obsesses with Juliet. This adds a very dangerous element to the mix and creates a love pentagon. And in the last two episodes, we've seen Sawyer being very protective of and sweet towards Claire. Could we soon be seeing a love hexagon on Lost ?

On the whole this episode, though chock-full of moments with small clues and insights, was a comparative slow-down after last week's adrenaline, focusing more on character development. It felt like it was introducing the elements coming into play for the end of the season : the romantic entanglements (which will be fundamentally affected by Rescue), Miles' refusal to even make contact with Keamy and Frank's fear of the mercs (indicating that Keamy's mandate may include killing some of the freighters), the Island's supernatural forces starting to make its moves.

It's a shame the writer's strike didn't start a week later, because if i were to choose where to split this season into two, i would split into the first 9 and the back 5.

[Darren]

As far as Jack/Kate and their future goes, as huge of an episode as this is for Jack/Kate shippers, I think it bodes rather well for a happy ending for Kate and Sawyer. Jack is controlling and self-destructive, and as much as she loves him I don't see Kate wanting to put up with it for a lifetime. Right now (flash-forwards) she's in the mindset that they are never going back to the island, so (presuming Sawyer is still there and alive) she's never going to see Sawyer again.

Over the next two seasons,

Spoiler:

when they do try and get back to the island,

Kate and Sawyer's eventual reunion may be her real happy ending.

[majorsal]

No. Jack's not a "bad" guy, but he's not a "good" guy either. He's way to messed up. And I seriously don't think Kate will ever be truly happy with him, because she'll always feel like she has to prove herself to him.

yeah. this is why she needs to stand up to him, or (in his mind) he might not respect her the way she deserves. she needs to say to him, 'take me the way i am or shove it.' that might get the ball rolling. (i at first spelled ball as 'baal'. )




sally

[majorsal]

As far as Jack/Kate and their future goes, as huge of an episode as this is for Jack/Kate shippers, I think it bodes rather well for a happy ending for Kate and Sawyer. Jack is controlling and self-destructive, and as much as she loves him I don't see Kate wanting to put up with it for a lifetime. Right now (flash-forwards) she's in the mindset that they are never going back to the island, so (presuming Sawyer is still there and alive) she's never going to see Sawyer again.

Over the next two seasons,

Spoiler:

when they do try and get back to the island,

Kate and Sawyer's eventual reunion may be her real happy ending.

oy, i don't like this. i just don't think sawyer's good for kate, anymore than jack's control issues are good for her either. but i think jack would be a better companion, if he'd ever get over his 'issues'.

~think of a future with kate and sawyer; can you really see 'him' wanting to settle down and give kate (and aaron) a stable future? i don't.~




sally

[KatG]

oy, i don't like this. i just don't think sawyer's good for kate, anymore than jack's control issues are good for her either. but i think jack would be a better companion, if he'd ever get over his 'issues'.

~think of a future with kate and sawyer; can you really see 'him' wanting to settle down and give kate (and aaron) a stable future? i don't.~




sally

Actually I can. I have to agree with Darren. In the end, I think Kate's better off with Sawyer. The island has changed him. He's not the same Sawyer that crashed. He's softer and more caring. Hence his concern for Kate when they were in the cage and his concern for Claire when in the Others camp. Ultimately I think Sawyer just wants Kate to be happy, whatever that entails.

Jack on the other hand seems to have changed for the worst. It's as if the island has magnified all his control tendencies until he's out of control.

Maybe it's because I've seen what "control freaks" can turn into. There's a very thin line between needing to control everything and everyone around you and physical abuse and sometimes it doesn't take much to push someone over that line. Drugs and alcohol added to the mix just makes it that much more likely. I see Jack as a ticking time bomb just waiting to explode.

So given the choice between Sawyer and Jack, I say Kate should choose Sawyer.

[majorsal]

Actually I can. I have to agree with Darren. In the end, I think Kate's better off with Sawyer. The island has changed him. He's not the same Sawyer that crashed. He's softer and more caring. Hence his concern for Kate when they were in the cage and his concern for Claire when in the Others camp. Ultimately I think Sawyer just wants Kate to be happy, whatever that entails.

Jack on the other hand seems to have changed for the worst. It's as if the island has magnified all his control tendencies until he's out of control.

Maybe it's because I've seen what "control freaks" can turn into. There's a very thin line between needing to control everything and everyone around you and physical abuse and sometimes it doesn't take much to push someone over that line. Drugs and alcohol added to the mix just makes it that much more likely. I see Jack as a ticking time bomb just waiting to explode.

So given the choice between Sawyer and Jack, I say Kate should choose Sawyer.

i wish they wouldn't have done with this jack, just like they've 'tarnished' locke a bit too. it's hard to root for someone when you want to slap them first.



sally

[LoneStar1836]

Jack on the other hand seems to have changed for the worst. It's as if the island has magnified all his control tendencies until he's out of control.

I agree.

I like the character, but Jack definitely has personality problems that being on the island has exacerbated. He was forced to take a leadership role when they crashed and eventually got to the point that he felt the need to make practically all the decisions because he felt responsible for these people...to the point that it became an obsession.

It's obviously not going to work out between he and Kate as evident by last season's finale. He apparently forces them to go their separate ways.

I agree with Darren that she will probably eventually end up with Sawyer. And that's probably not a bad thing for her as she has changed her life for the good since getting off the island. She doesn't need Jack's problems dragging her back down. Though Sawyer has problems of his own back in the real world so I suppose we'd have to see how that played out first before they had any kind of happy ending off the island.

[KatG]

i wish they wouldn't have done with this jack, just like they've 'tarnished' locke a bit too. it's hard to root for someone when you want to slap them first.




sally

I know. I liked Jack in the beginning, and I do think his motives were good in trying to "fix" things, but he's just become someone that I really don't like anymore. Like you, I'd really like to slap him silly.

[KatG]

I agree.

I like the character, but Jack definitely has personality problems that being on the island has exacerbated. He was forced to take a leadership role when they crashed and eventually got to the point that he felt the need to make practically all the decisions because he felt responsible for these people...to the point that it became an obsession.

It's obviously not going to work out between he and Kate as evident by last season's finale. He apparently forces them to go their separate ways.

I agree with Darren that she will probably eventually end up with Sawyer. And that's probably not a bad thing for her as she has changed her life for the good since getting off the island. She doesn't need Jack's problems dragging her back down. Though Sawyer has problems of his own back in the real world so I suppose we'd have to see how that played out first before they had any kind of happy ending off the island.

Exacerbated. Yes. That's the word I was trying to think of last night and just couldn't quite grasp.

And if Kate can work out a deal after what she did, surely Sawyer can too. Of course they might both be stuck in one place for the next 10 years, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. And we know that Sawyer is very good with Aaron too.

[Nyarlathotep]

I must say Kate is starting to annoy me now... she used to be a strong character but all she seems to do now is pine after Jack, cry over Jack, worry about Jack...

Anyway, I guess it will all come to a head sooner or later and we'll see her kicking ass again.