The Winds of Winter (610)

[Teddybrown]

Well everybody seems to have covered everything, but I am still picky.
Arya gets all the way from Bravos to Riverrun, Jamie gets all the way from Riverrun to Kingslanding. How come Briene & Podrick haven't turned up in Winterfell yet? They left Riverrun well before Jamie did.

I was discussing this with a friend today, but its like Littlefinger. He just appears where he is needed sometimes...

[SoulReaver]

so what's the deal with Varys anyway?

he can teleport? what's the distance between Dorne & Mereen?

he's evil now? conspiring with those who destroyed one of the very few good houses
(tbh I can only think of 2 good houses - Starks & Martells)

there's already an evil top game player (Petyr) we don't need the other top player to be evil too

[Looney]

HOLD THE PHONE!

Isn't it possible that Lyanna Stark was already preggers by someone like Robert Baratheon when she was taken by Rhaegar Targaryen? (Just saying - black hair, got burned, knack for fighting.)

So I haven't said anything about this season, but it has definitely been my second favorite, or maybe even favorite, season to date. I am sorry to see so many characters go in this episode, (I recently me Eugene Simon and Julian Glover at a Con and they didn't even remotely let on about their fates), and I am still having a bit of trouble wrapping my head around the Tommen thing, but I still loved it.

[Jeffer]

Here's a good article that talks about the travel time of people through Westeros http://www.theverge.com/2016/6/28/12...les-time-warps but basically all this stuff isn't happening at the same time and they just cut out the traveling parts because it would be boring to watch people make camp for 4 episodes.

[Skydiver]

And since they rarely mention 'it's been X many months since.....' The viewer doesn't always know how much time has elapsed.

If GRRM had done the same thing then the last 2 books could have just been one

[SoulReaver]

ok so that would explain the "teleporting" thing - but not why Varys suddenly seems to have gone rogue. we don't need another Petyr

[Kenton-Atlantis]

I really have so many questions still. I thought episode was great and overall a good season. The Hound really is my fav character I loved the seen where he gets his revenge even if he didn't get to use the Axe lol

[Skydiver]

I don't think Varys has gone rogue. He and Tyrion are working some angle, just from two sides.

[SoulReaver]

but considering that Ellaria's poised to become the new most hated character & that Varys is helping her (apparently) I got the impression that scene was meant to reveal Varys' true nature or something

[Traianus Augustus]

Varys' ultimate goal since the first season is a Targaryen restoration in Westeros and he's always worked behind the scenes to make it happen. In season 1 he secretly met with Illyrio Mopatis to coordinate a Dothraki invasion led by Khal Drogo while the Starks and Lannisters fought each other. Drogo's untimely death stopped that plan in its tracks.

At this point Varys knows that Daenerys' armies will need a secure location in Westeros to land and organize for the conquest. The North is too far away from King's Landing and the Lannisters could easily bottleneck their forces at the Twins. Littlefinger is lord of the Vale of Arryn and Varys certainly doesn't trust him. Casterly Rock is Lannister controlled territory. And before his murder at the hands of Arya, Walder Frey, lord of the Riverlands and the Twins, was a vassal to the Lannisters.

Dorne is the logical choice as Ellaria and the Sand Snakes are openly hostile to the Lannisters. Dorne is also very close to the Crownlands and King's Landing. Add into the mix an alliance with a revenge-minded Olenna Tyrell of Highgarden, and now Varys has just secured a large chunk of southern Westeros as the landing point of Daenerys' armies.

Now, the question becomes whether or not this alliance can hold together long enough to defeat Cersei.

As for the episode, I was on the edge of my seat the entire time. The execution of Cersei's plot against the High Sparrow was brilliantly done. The High Sparrow had become so drunk on his own power that he failed to realize what was happening until the Sept was blowing up under his feet. I felt really bad for Margery and Loras and I was actually hoping that they'd somehow escape, but alas it was not to be.

Littlefinger finally lays his cards out: he wants to put himself on the Iron Throne with Sansa at his side. At least at this point Sansa has matured enough to know not to put any trust in him. I've read that a lot of reviewers read her meaningful glace with him at Jon's coronation as a seed of betrayal against her brother (cousin). I don't think that's the case. I think it was more a look of fear, as she knows Littlefinger is fully capable of doing anything to get what he wants and she fears he will move against her and Jon.

I wonder what will become of Jaime in the coming season. This last season saw his relationship with Cersei become increasingly strained. Now with their children gone and Cersei gone off the deep end, will he stay by her side?

[Jeffer]

but considering that Ellaria's poised to become the new most hated character & that Varys is helping her (apparently) I got the impression that scene was meant to reveal Varys' true nature or something

I don't think Ellaria wants to do anything more than get revenge on the Lanisters(which let's be honest so does 90% of westeros). Varys sees an opportunity to have 2 powerful houses backing Dany (3 if you count the Greyjoy's.) Varys has always had the best interest of the kingdom in mind rather than his own self interest.

[SoulReaver]

I don't think Ellaria wants to do anything more than get revenge on the Lanisters

by killing 3 good people & ending one of the few good houses she's proving no better than the Lannisters (Tywin also was a utilitarian)

[SoulReaver]

also has Varys even thought of the Targaryen madness? what if he ends up with yet another mad king where's the good of the kingdom then?

[Traianus Augustus]

by killing 3 good people & ending one of the few good houses she's proving no better than the Lannisters (Tywin also was a utilitarian)

Everything Ellaria has done has been to hurt the Lannisters directly. It didn't matter to her whether or not Doran, Trystane, and Myrcella were good people. Doran and his son were not interested in attacking the Lannisters and were even on the way to a political alliance with Trystane betrothed to Myrcella. As far as Ellaria was concerned Doran was selling Dorne out to an enemy and needed to be eliminated, along with Trystane.

We have to assume Varys is well aware of her actions given his nature as a spymaster. All that matters to him at this point is that Ellaria controls Dorne and she is a sworn enemy of the Lannisters, making her a natural ally in Daenerys' coming invasion.

That being said, Dorne is very independent, even during the Targaryen reign. So we'll have to see how Ellaria will handle having to bend the knee to Daenerys when the dust settles. It's possible Varys has prepared for dealing with her should she prove treacherous.

[Traianus Augustus]

also has Varys even thought of the Targaryen madness? what if he ends up with yet another mad king where's the good of the kingdom then?

I'm sure Varys knows about the Targaryen madness and is keeping an eye on her. Even Tyrion is quick to point out when she's behaving like the Mad King. However, Daenerys hasn't shown the obvious warning signs as she does pull herself back when her advisers point out what she's doing. That's not to say that she won't develop it later in life, as her father's madness developed over a period of several years in middle age. We'll have to see.

With the revelation that Jon Snow is Rhaegar's son, if Daenerys does go insane, Varys may switch gears try to install him on the Iron Throne.