The Wolf and the Lion (105)

[magictrick]

I really don't remember that conversation between Robert and Cersei in the novel, but either way if it was added then it was a great touch - I really enjoyed it.

Everything else I recall happening but it was epic to see it play out on the screen

Great job portraying the creepiness that is the Vale.

[Celandine]

In Jaime's case meanwhile these nutty Starks have just dragged his beloved brother off for no good reason. Wouldn't you be angry and want to get him back?

I could argue that case by saying if Jaime hadn't pushed Bran off the tower to cover his indiscretion, none of this would have happened. Catelyn wouldn't have seen fit to follow Ned to King's Landing with the knife and thus upon her return to Winterfell, capturing Tyrion thinking he was the cause of the attempted murder of her son. To me, it all goes back to the crazy Lannisters.

About this episode though.. The power of TV disclosing secrets...not good. When reading the book, I had no idea whom Arya saw in the dungeons talking. All that was said was a 'wizard' and a man with a 'yellow forked beard'. I could only guess who they might be, but now it was certainly revealed through the ep. Not too happy about that. I liked a little intrigue and the fun of trying to figure out who it might be.

Also, many scenes seemed to be added or were changed...

-The last scene of Jaime confronting Ned. Jaime never laid a hand on his sword, but in the ep he was the one fighting hand-to-hand with him.

-Lysa's son Robert was supposed to be this frail, sickly thing in the book but he seemed healthy and just as nutty as his mother. That's it.

-The bit with King Robert and Cersei talking privately with each other. As far as I know, not in the book. Was it necessary to add this for the viewer to understand how bad their marriage was? I dunno.

Why change things up so much?

[MattSilver 3k]

Also, many scenes seemed to be added or were changed...

-The last scene of Jaime confronting Ned. Jaime never laid a hand on his sword, but in the ep he was the one fighting hand-to-hand with him.

-Lysa's son Robert was supposed to be this frail, sickly thing in the book but he seemed healthy and just as nutty as his mother. That's it.

-The bit with King Robert and Cersei talking privately with each other. As far as I know, not in the book. Was it necessary to add this for the viewer to understand how bad their marriage was? I dunno.

Why change things up so much?

Because it's a TV show, not a book. There's only so much that can be taken from the book's dialogue before other scenes have to be added to bolster the exposition for viewers of the show only - and yes, they exist, so don't have a heart attack. So what if Jaime and Ned had a little swordfight? It adds to their rivalry, it's always fun to have two main characters go at each other, and Jaime stabbing Jory openly like that only serves to add to his evil-ness, so... Lysa's son doesn't look sickly or frail, but I think mentally unstable and emotionally stunted comes across a lot better than a bit of makeup would, so who cares.

And no, the scene between Robert and Cersei was not in the book, but, according to the producers, they wanted to explore a scene with those two just sitting down for one moment.

So. FREAKING. What.

The book has POVs of certain characters. The show is not restricted to that. It can move outwards and set up things differently. It's not a direct adaptation, but pretty damn close enough compared to every other book to movie/TV adaptation ever made, so "Why so many changes?" Because they can, and they are, it's not hurting anybody, and, shock and horror, but we're not reading a book and things need to be presented differently.

Get over it.

Does that answer your question?

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

I could argue that case by saying if Jaime hadn't pushed Bran off the tower to cover his indiscretion, none of this would have happened. Catelyn wouldn't have seen fit to follow Ned to King's Landing with the knife and thus upon her return to Winterfell, capturing Tyrion thinking he was the cause of the attempted murder of her son. To me, it all goes back to the crazy Lannisters.

Certainly Jaime is not a very nice character, but Catelyn wasn't very sensible in seizing Tyrion in broad daylight and inflaming the situation. She's just ignited a conflict between the Starks and Lannisters in which quite a few people have died already.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

About this episode though.. The power of TV disclosing secrets...not good. When reading the book, I had no idea whom Arya saw in the dungeons talking. All that was said was a 'wizard' and a man with a 'yellow forked beard'. I could only guess who they might be, but now it was certainly revealed through the ep. Not too happy about that. I liked a little intrigue and the fun of trying to figure out who it might be.

And how is the show supposed to pull that off? In the book it's from her POV, and she has never met the two men. In the show we the viewer do know these people, and even if they obscured their faces, their voices would have been recognisable, especially Roger Allam's who has a distinctive voice.

-The last scene of Jaime confronting Ned. Jaime never laid a hand on his sword, but in the ep he was the one fighting hand-to-hand with him.

Much more dramatic on screen to have this fight between them, especially since they've been confrontational with each other in previous eps.

-Lysa's son Robert was supposed to be this frail, sickly thing in the book but he seemed healthy and just as nutty as his mother. That's it.

Not every actor they cast will be the same. Syrio Forel is bald in the books, in the series he has a lot of hair. They will never be able to match every description of each character in the book, whats most important is that they caput the heart and essence of each character. Robert Aryn (who is renamed Robin in the series) most important feature is that he's a developmentally stunted child. Not weaned off his mother and a little nuts, something that is perfectly clear to us as the viewer.

-The bit with King Robert and Cersei talking privately with each other. As far as I know, not in the book. Was it necessary to add this for the viewer to understand how bad their marriage was? I dunno.

It's a nice well played moment imo. It shows they dynamic between them, and Robert's infatuation with Lyanna Stark.

Why change things up so much?

It's an adaptation, things have to be changed up because sometimes they work better on screen in a different way or things have to be shortened. As far as adaptations go though, this has to be the most faithful one I've ever seen and one of the best imo.

[g.o.d]

damn, I love shows where characters aren't entirely good or bad

this episode was perfect as always

[Shan Bruce Lee]

The breastfeeding scene was a WTF moment that I couldn't get my head around. I wonder what the hell he was thinking when he wrote that part (assuming it was from the book)

I loved all the violence in this episode. And it looks like they're getting close to some big battles. I can't wait for that.

[Arative]

The breastfeeding scene was a WTF moment that I couldn't get my head around. I wonder what the hell he was thinking when he wrote that part (assuming it was from the book)

I loved all the violence in this episode. And it looks like they're getting close to some big battles. I can't wait for that.

I think GRRM was showing how batsh*t insane Lysa is.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

I think GRRM was showing how batsh*t insane Lysa is.

Yeah she's nuts. And in the book it's explained she had 5 miscarriges before she had her son, so she dotes on him like mad.

[gotthammer]

re: changes from the book
Having read the book, I like the way the show's been approached.

The PoV chapters (which is basically all of them, lol) have internal monologue (i.e., the PoV characters' thoughts).

More exposition or 'showing more' (such as w/ scenes made for the TV show itself) is, I think, a good substitute (IMHO, 'thought bubbles' in whatever form would look rather 'off', methinks ).

one change that I find a bit off:
I just hope that, come the time for 'REAL' battles, we'll see better use of heraldry (i.e., tabards w/ heraldry: I found it a bit odd how Cat was calling out friends of House Tully by their heraldry, in the previous episode, when there didn't seem to be any to BE SEEN ).
While House-specific armour (like the 'samurai' Lannister armour) is quite nice, I'd still think that tabards are the way to go...(unless they go 'samurai all-the-way' and use sashimono )

[Lahela]

Flipping heck (she says, avoiding bad words like those used in the show... which makes me wonder why shows for adults shouldn't have adults-only sections on the forum) that was pure awesome. With awesome sauce. And awesome sprinkles.

It has been a while since I read the books and I'm falling in love with all the characters all over again, both good and bad.

The visuals are absolutely stunning! I was wondering how they would do the Eyrie and while I would have loved to see it done like in the book, I understand that time constraints and FX prohibit it. It was simply stunning.

RIP Jory.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

RIP Jory.

Yeah, he got something in his eye.

[Giantevilhead]

The part where Arya got locked in the dungeon was funny since you can obviously see that she could easily squeeze through those bars.

[siles]

One thing unique about this story is that there's no real clean-cut "good" or "evil." It's all shades of grey, except perhaps the Starks who seem to be the most honorable of the lot. But even then they have their flaws too. Daenerys ain't exactly "evil" considering that she's technically one of the rightful rulers of the Seven Kingdoms. Her father Aerys and her brother Rhaegar, from what I know of them, were just whacked guys just like Viserys. The same could be said for Tyrion. Despite being a Lannister, he seems to follow a certain code of his own. The only ones who might be consistently "evil" are perhaps Cersei and Jaime but even then they're portrayed sympathetically at times as well.

What about Jon Snow? Surely he is good; I'd like to find out more about the Watch and the invaders; I'm not really interested in the messy politics from the court..

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

The part where Arya got locked in the dungeon was funny since you can obviously see that she could easily squeeze through those bars.

Ahh it's a minor niggle, presumably someone forgot to tell the set decorators or props department or whoever that the gate needed bars narrow enough to prevent an 11 year old girl from slipping through.

A much better cool detail is that when Ned gets a spear in the leg you can actually see him visibly shaking afterwards while kneeling, exactly the sort of reaction someone would have to that kind of trauma.

What about Jon Snow? Surely he is good;

Well he does threaten other recruits who don't do what he wants...

He was also very arrogant when he first got to the Wall, considering himslf better than the other recruits.