"Inside Game of Thrones" - Making of Preview

[Huaracocha]

Spoiler:

So Jaime should have just stood there and watched Aerys kill more innocent people until some else got up the nerve to kill the mad king, just so he wouldn't be an oathbreaker? Robert and Ned think he was trying to to take the throne after killing Aerys, their opinion of Jaime isn't exactly unbiased.

Well it's difficult to say..

Spoiler:

They don't really make it very clear what the situation in the throne room was in the show. Assuming it follows the brief account I've seen so far in the books, the Lannisters had taken King's Landing (through treachery ) after the King's forces were routed and retreated there. Bearing in mind this was at the end of a civil war / rebellion and Aerys was defeated he wasn't killing anyone at that point unless I'm missing something.

So Jaime could have held him to await 'justice' at Robert's order. Admittedly that might have necessitated killing a handful more troops / guards in the process although from what I've seen of the Lannisters they were most likely all slaughtered anyway. Or he could have ordered his troops to slay the King thus avoiding having to break his sacred oath.

It's Ned who says he was trying on the throne in the conversation I was referring to, Robert wasn't there at the time. In the show someone mentions at one point that Jaime only got off the throne because Ned made him but I forget who. In any event you're right, that's Ned's version of what was happening and Jaime's may well be different. Although if it came down to it, I know who I'd be more inclined to believe

[VampyreWraith]

Well it's difficult to say..

Spoiler:

They don't really make it very clear what the situation in the throne room was in the show. Assuming it follows the brief account I've seen so far in the books, the Lannisters had taken King's Landing (through treachery ) after the King's forces were routed and retreated there. Bearing in mind this was at the end of a civil war / rebellion and Aerys was defeated he wasn't killing anyone at that point unless I'm missing something.

So Jaime could have held him to await 'justice' at Robert's order. Admittedly that might have necessitated killing a handful more troops / guards in the process although from what I've seen of the Lannisters they were most likely all slaughtered anyway. Or he could have ordered his troops to slay the King thus avoiding having to break his sacred oath.

It's Ned who says he was trying on the throne in the conversation I was referring to, Robert wasn't there at the time. In the show someone mentions at one point that Jaime only got off the throne because Ned made him but I forget who. In any event you're right, that's Ned's version of what was happening and Jaime's may well be different. Although if it came down to it, I know who I'd be more inclined to believe

Regarding Aerys and Kings landing, and since I'm not sure if this part was mentioned in the series yet,( and I really don't think it has been), since I don't think it's explained until later in the books when

(not really spoilery, but can be if you consider confirming someone is still alive at least until a he/she gets a pov chapter is a spoiler)

Spoiler:

Jaime gets pov chapters, Jaimie really becomes more sympathetic(imo) once the reader get to see things from inside his head. I think they started showing this in the series

(actual spoiler, because I don't think it's been mentioned in the tv series yet)

Spoiler:

Aerys wasn't really a good guy, Jaime sees how bad he is first hand. When Aerys saw that he might be beaten he had his pyromancers rig things so that the city would burn and kill lots of people. Jaime new of the plan but did nothing at first. After Tywin tricks Aerys into letting him into the city, he ordered Jaime to kill his own father, and he(Aerys) sent orders to burn the city. Jaime killed the messenger and then killed the king to stop him from sending another message. Later Ned finds Jaime sitting on the throne and assumes meaning behind it. I think Robert hears second hand, that Jaime was sitting on the throne and he too he just asumes the same as Ned. Jaime doesn't really explain himself, because he kinda of figures that people would think whatever they want anyway, and probably wouldn't believe him even if he tried to explain.

[Huaracocha]

I'll get back to you on that then ; ) I don't want to spoil things in book 2 onwards for myself since I'm really getting into book 1 now. Knowing me this means I'll devour them in a week or two and then be cursing that I have to wait 2 years+ for book 6!

[VampyreWraith]

I'll get back to you on that then ; ) I don't want to spoil things in book 2 onwards for myself since I'm really getting into book 1 now. Knowing me this means I'll devour them in a week or two and then be cursing that I have to wait 2 years+ for book 6!

The books are great, the worst thing about them(imo) is the wait between them because they so leave you wanting more.


*If anyone notices that I'm wrong about things, and that they've already been mentioned on the tv series feel free to correct me; the books and tv show blend together for me now. I can picture the actors playing the characters, saying and doing some things that take place later in the books so well, that it feels like I've already seen it on screen.

[NerdyRaptor]

Well not everyone in the Targaryen family is evil. I mean, his sister was once fearful, but then became this alpha female who showed compassion. Though it's true that the Stark family is meant to be the heroes of the story, it also shows that the mother didn't take to the bastard son real well-even though he showed nothing but kindness to the family. Not necessarily good, but not downright evil. I see them more of an anti-hero. The only 'real' hero I can see in Game of Thrones is Bran.

But getting back on topic...
I saw the preview. Looks wicked awesome, but it's a bit disappointing that I don't have cable. I'll be sure to check it out once it comes out onto DVD.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

Yes indeed that's very true. Allying with Russia was hardly a clean move, nor was permitting the bombing of Coventry to protect the Enigma code secret. I'd agree that Ned's glaring flaw is excessive honour, even stupidity in the face of the treachery of others. As fatal as such a flaw can be though, it doesn't strike me as 'evil' in any way.

I love honourable characters who are willing to set aside their own virtues and do what must be done in dealing with the treacherous and dishonourable in a ruthless manner. This would almost invariably be a wiser and more successful strategy than one employed by the likes of Ned but, if anything, would make such a character less 'good' than a blinkered so-and-so like Lord Eddard

Ned isn't evil, but I'd actually describe him as fairly selfish, and of course a bit of an idiot. He's so obsessed with his honour, that as I said he wants to preserve it at the expense of everything else. It barely even crosses his mind what the consequences for the peasants and the "small folk" will be, and they are the ones who suffer the most from the conflict.

Luckily there are many characters who are good people, but are more than willing not to let "honour" get in the way of what has to be done, as you shall find out in later books and seasons of the show.

[Huaracocha]

The books are great, the worst thing about them(imo) is the wait between them because they so leave you wanting more.

I read a bit about some issues the author had with writing 4 and 5, changing his plans for the timeline and then re-writing to split into 2 books because it was too long etc. So hopefully 6 & 7 may not take quite so long. Perhaps a vain hope for the conclusion to a series which often takes longer than the beginning but I'll stay optimistic

Well not everyone in the Targaryen family is evil. I mean, his sister was once fearful, but then became this alpha female who showed compassion. Though it's true that the Stark family is meant to be the heroes of the story, it also shows that the mother didn't take to the bastard son real well-even though he showed nothing but kindness to the family. Not necessarily good, but not downright evil. I see them more of an anti-hero. The only 'real' hero I can see in Game of Thrones is Bran.

But getting back on topic...
I saw the preview. Looks wicked awesome, but it's a bit disappointing that I don't have cable. I'll be sure to check it out once it comes out onto DVD.

Yeah I like Dany a lot as a character.

Spoiler:

Mighty 6 is right she is partly responsible for the sacking of the Lamb village (indirectly imo) but she is evolving rapidly as a person and seems to try and do the right thing most of the time. Cat was a bit mean to Jon but I guess if she'd really had it in for him she could have gotten Ned to foster him away or something years ago. Sansa is the must unlikeable Stark imo, at least in book 1.

Ned isn't evil, but I'd actually describe him as fairly selfish, and of course a bit of an idiot. He's so obsessed with his honour, that as I said he wants to preserve it at the expense of everything else. It barely even crosses his mind what the consequences for the peasants and the "small folk" will be, and they are the ones who suffer the most from the conflict.

Luckily there are many characters who are good people, but are more than willing not to let "honour" get in the way of what has to be done, as you shall find out in later books and seasons of the show.

As far as Ned goes..

Spoiler:

Of course ultimately he does sacrifice his honour but to no avail so it does have a price!

It's a good point about the small folk but then I like high adventure, battles, toppling evil forces and such in my fantasy so I guess I don't care much about the welfare of the small folk either

I look forward to seeing the characters develop and if there are new ones to meet in line with your last point (currently in book 2).

Spoiler:

I'm liking Tyrion more and more and even starting to forgive Sansa as she gets her 'just desserts' for being such a simpering, vapid, pitiful creature throughout most of book 1

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

It's a good point about the small folk but then I like high adventure, battles, toppling evil forces and such in my fantasy so I guess I don't care much about the welfare of the small folk either

Well the future books, and presumably the next few seasons will show the small folk and how their lives are ruined by the High Lords. If they even film half of what is described in the book it will make for some disturbing viewing. George RR Martin spares nothing in showing the horrors that are unleashed, as the population is raped, murdered and pillaged into oblivion.

This is not your traditional fantasy work where the heroes can fight a war without collateral damage. Look up some of the stuff about the invasion of Russia during World War 2, and then just think about that happening in Westeros, because we are talking that level of horror and death. Some of the new characters in season 2 include the Brave Companions, a mercenary company. I won't go into too much detail because I don't want to spoil it, but suffice to say they are the stuff of nightmares. And they join the Starks side...

[Skydiver]

HOnor only works if everyone is doing it. Or if everyone's goal is to do what does the most good for the most people. Very few are doing that. Most are 'lookin out for number one'....they're just all willing to go to different lengths to get what they want.

As to Ned claiming Jon (his bastard), yeah, he did....claimed him as a bastard. he doesn't know who his mother is and he's treated as a second class citizen his whole life because he's 'Lord Snow'.
so yeah, ned claimed him. but honestly the kid woulda had an easier time of it had Ned brought him home with a 'found this child, his mother was dead and he has no one' story. Cat would have likely been more sympathetic to a foundling than she was proof of her husband's infidelity.

so yeah, his honor demanded that he claim him, but denying that honor would have served Jon better and given him a better life potential

[Huaracocha]

Well the future books, and presumably the next few seasons will show the small folk and how their lives are ruined by the High Lords. If they even film half of what is described in the book it will make for some disturbing viewing. George RR Martin spares nothing in showing the horrors that are unleashed, as the population is raped, murdered and pillaged into oblivion.

This is not your traditional fantasy work where the heroes can fight a war without collateral damage. Look up some of the stuff about the invasion of Russia during World War 2, and then just think about that happening in Westeros, because we are talking that level of horror and death. Some of the new characters in season 2 include the Brave Companions, a mercenary company. I won't go into too much detail because I don't want to spoil it, but suffice to say they are the stuff of nightmares. And they join the Starks side...

Just finished book 2..

Spoiler:

I see what you mean about the small folk and the Bloody Mummers, although I'm a little on the fence about whether working for Bolton means being on Stark's side given the activities of his charming son I know he denounced him and all but he doesn't seem overly trustworthy. Not that hardly anyone in Westeros does to be fair.

I don't mind him making a thing about the suffering of war, it's often neglected in this type of story and helps to bring the world more to life imo.. but ultimately I want to see heroes crushing villains! If a few million peasants get killed, raped and burned off the land in the process well that's just the price of a good yarn

I think they're going to have to take some poetic license with the ordering / focus of events in season 2 of the show because, to me anyway, book 2 is veeeerrryyyyy slow for the first half at least. In fact they already did with the conversation Catelyn has with Kingslayer near the end of season 1 that is well into the back half of book 2.

HOnor only works if everyone is doing it. Or if everyone's goal is to do what does the most good for the most people. Very few are doing that. Most are 'lookin out for number one'....they're just all willing to go to different lengths to get what they want.

As to Ned claiming Jon (his bastard), yeah, he did....claimed him as a bastard. he doesn't know who his mother is and he's treated as a second class citizen his whole life because he's 'Lord Snow'.
so yeah, ned claimed him. but honestly the kid woulda had an easier time of it had Ned brought him home with a 'found this child, his mother was dead and he has no one' story. Cat would have likely been more sympathetic to a foundling than she was proof of her husband's infidelity.

so yeah, his honor demanded that he claim him, but denying that honor would have served Jon better and given him a better life potential

Yeah I completely agree, it seems honour is definitely of limited value in Westeros..

Spoiler:

so far at least anyway since almost all the important characters are scum! It must be a disadvantage in fact (as Ned found out to his cost) when almost every other Lord, noble house, etc is scheming and plotting to their own ignoble ends. I'm left desperately hoping for news of Barristan the Bold since he's about the only non-Stark kicking around in Westeros whose honour is in intact!

I'm not sure I completely agree about Ned & Jon, from what I've seen so far. Cat was a bit hard on him but he was treated more or less as a son by Ned and a brother by the other Starks. A random foundling of no noble birth could hope for a place in the household and maybe to become a squire or such I guess so perhaps that would have been better for him.

Although I've formed a wild theory about Jon's parentage that is quite different from what we've been led to believe so far and would explain Ned taking him in as a bastard. It's probably wrong and I don't want to get into discussing it for fear of spoiling the future books but let's just say it involves Ned's obsession with the promise he gave and Dany's vision of her brother and the number 3..

Back to the original topic of good vs evil in this saga and I guess I have to take back some of what I was saying..

Spoiler:

I still feel pretty much the same way about the main characters originally discussed but, at this point at the end of book 2, it seems more a tale of evil vs evil vs evil vs super-evil vs morally ambiguous with a few good guys running around not sure what they're doing and looking fairly ripe for slaughter! A bit depressing actually.. someone bring me Cercei's head and feed Joffrey's cock to the goats and I'll feel a lot better about the whole sorry busines

[Cold Fuzz]

Back to the original topic of good vs evil in this saga and I guess I have to take back some of what I was saying..

Spoiler:

I still feel pretty much the same way about the main characters originally discussed but, at this point at the end of book 2, it seems more a tale of evil vs evil vs evil vs super-evil vs morally ambiguous with a few good guys running around not sure what they're doing and looking fairly ripe for slaughter! A bit depressing actually.. someone bring me Cercei's head and feed Joffrey's cock to the goats and I'll feel a lot better about the whole sorry busines

GRRM has almost completely done away with the idea of good and evil. I've come to think of almost every character and house as having an agenda they're trying to pursue and it's a no-holds-barred end-justifies-the-means free-for-all. I think very few characters are actually consistent with some kind of personal code. Consequently, many of them have struck me as unsympathetic and when they get scragged by someone else or their own intrigues backfire on them, it becomes satisfying to read about them reaping what they've sown.

[Huaracocha]

GRRM has almost completely done away with the idea of good and evil. I've come to think of almost every character and house as having an agenda they're trying to pursue and it's a no-holds-barred end-justifies-the-means free-for-all. I think very few characters are actually consistent with some kind of personal code. Consequently, many of them have struck me as unsympathetic and when they get scragged by someone else or their own intrigues backfire on them, it becomes satisfying to read about them reaping what they've sown.

Glad to see I'm not the only one finding most of this bunch fairly unsympathetic! I've got a hit list of names, much like one of the characters does, so I'm looking forward to some of this scragging you mention

[Cold Fuzz]

Glad to see I'm not the only one finding most of this bunch fairly unsympathetic! I've got a hit list of names, much like one of the characters does, so I'm looking forward to some of this scragging you mention

Oh with the events that go on all the way through the beginnings of book 5 (which I'm going through very slowly right now because of work and other things), there are plenty of characters I wish would get scragged--and my hitlist is considerably longer than Arya's. Alas, there are a few characters that I wanted eliminated and are still drawing breath.

[Huaracocha]

I'm getting perilously close to adding Mr Martin to my "Arya list" at the moment!

Don't get me wrong I'm loving the books and can't put them down - currently well into book 3. The only thing is I'm just finding it so bleak and depressing ever since Ned's little accident. My heart would sing to find one of the characters I care about in Westeros (essentially the Starks) find a little comfort and happiness or achieve something meaningful.

I'm not looking for happily ever after but just to stop being constantly hammered from pillar to post, tortured and tormented. Failing that I'd settle for seeing one of the people I loathe killed horribly As it stands though neither is looking very likely at all

I dance a little jig every time the chapter heading "Daenerys" comes up. At least one of the characters I like is getting somewhere! I shouldn't have said that.. she'll spend the next book and half in chains being tortured and cruelly abused now no doubt

[magictrick]

That is what the books are all about. I find them so interesting because they are a great depiction of real life, where a lot of the time there aren't heroes that save the day and the villains continue to thrive. But most of all, the shades of grey that almost each character possesses is great. Not necessarily evil nor good but just doing what they think is best based on the situations they are faced with.