The End of Time, Part 2 (2009)

[SGalisa]

Could the mystery woman be the Doctor's mother? Or maybe River Song?

I know Julie Gardner sad she believed it was his mother....but still. There are plenty of other relations of the doctor it could be. His Daughter or wife perhaps? He did have a family afterall. At any rate.....until I'm told otherwise I'm still going with Romana.

It's possible that she was his mother. The symbolisms thruout were plenty, but could translate into several different directions, too, at the same time.

I would recommend that anyone who has this ep recorded (DVR?) or is getting the DVD -- listen to the conversation on the cactus' ship between Wilf and the "lady in white". I didn't catch this until seeing it the 2nd time -- the music playing in the background was similar to instruments playing a lullaby.. it ended in a baby's type of lullaby when Wilf asked her "who are you?" That could mean exactly that, or just her being very tender and gentle.

The other time that question occurred was when Wilf asked the Doctor, while Donna's mom was standing right there. The Doctor didn't answer but looked at Donna's mom -- I thought he was doing it to look at both of them, but it's too ambiguous, because he looked over at Donna.. Maybe the connection was to change the conversation (which he did), or maybe to point to "Mom" and child in contrast to himself with the mysterious lady in white.

Whoever she is or was, I think she is definitely someone related to the Doctor in some way, and very close to his heart.

[SGalisa]

He's just vain that way. Always was, always will be.

He's never been a ginger. Plain and simple.

that explains it

So this goes back before Nine/Ten?

Yep.. regarding the potential *vanity* bit. I think Tom Baker held out his hair mop of curls in a mirror, and he might have commented about his nose or teeth (I don't really remember). Maybe the hair color is something he's either had in his childhood or has been secretly craving for. Can't imagine why.. I prefer #4's auburn highlights..
#5 and 6's dirty blonde to platinum highlights were kind of nice, too..

And as far as the Doctor checking his face and legs out -- maybe as #9 once said -- regeneration doesn't guarantee if the person will come out with one head or two heads, or what.. that's why they all (each of them) usually go thru that body check during their first awareness of being *alive* in that new body / persona.
After reading that tidbit (in another DW discussion topic) -- NOW it makes sense (to me).. so, it might not just be a vanity issue on the body check.

[Col.Foley]

Yep.. regarding the potential *vanity* bit. I think Tom Baker held out his hair mop of curls in a mirror, and he might have commented about his nose or teeth (I don't really remember). Maybe the hair color is something he's either had in his childhood or has been secretly craving for. Can't imagine why.. I prefer #4's auburn highlights..
#5 and 6's dirty blonde to platinum highlights were kind of nice, too..

and as far as the Doctor checking his face and legs out -- maybe as #9 once said -- regeneration doesn't guarantee if the person will come out with one head or two heads, or what.. that's why they all (each of them) usually go thru that body check during their first awareness of being *alive* in that new body / persona.
After reading that tidbit (in another DW discussion topic) -- NOW it makes sense (to me).. so, it might not just be a vanity issue on the body check.

well when you change faces so much why not?

[Pharaoh Atem]

Could the mystery woman be the Doctor's mother? Or maybe River Song?

doc's mother yes.

river song no. river IMO will be will true love. which is saying something for a 900 year old timelord. who will be much older when he meets her

[Dusk]

And so ends another era... and it is a shame things seem so rushed, a bit cheap, and not very stirring. Tennant has had better Who moments. Davies, well, I can see that his creative juices (dare I use the word) just aren't lactating to their milkiest. It's like him and his team came up with a bunch of ideas on paper, threw it all up in the air and then randomly picked up several sheets from the floor and tried to mash a story together.

The cause of the Doctor's regeneration seems ridiculously bland. I would have thought falling on a butter knife would have been more exciting.

I'm hoping for a fresh start with this new guy, and of course Moffat has already demonstrated his udder of writing prowess (indeed, some of his recent instalments were some of this series' best). The issue, of course, comes from having yet another young female sidekick. Seriously, reinvent the stereotype why don't you!? And by the looks of it

Spoiler:

River Song is in and out of the new series in a matter of episodes, rather than being a long-term companion as she deserves to be. Which is sad, as Alex Kingston is a marvellous actress

And as for the recent news that Gold is returning to score the series, I'm less than overjoyed. Don't get me wrong, some of his compositions have been wonderful. Others, more recently, have been nothing short of woeful.

So bye then Dave and Russ, and here's looking to greet the new kids on the block with cake and vodka shot.

[Ice Wolf]

On the woman in White:

I assumed that she was either Romana or Susan.

If she hadn't appeared at the end I would have have thought that she was Romana communicating from the dimension where she left the Doctor. So I think that is less likely that she is Romana.

She could be Susan as it could be assumed that the Timelords recalled all of the Timelords/ladies back to Gallifrey to fight the war (they did resurrect the Master afterall), so she would be there for the Time War and be trapped.

As I see it that the Timelords would have a much easier time of plucking Susan out of time than retrieving Romana from whatever dimension she was in.

[SaberBlade]

doc's mother yes.

river song no. river IMO will be will true love. which is saying something for a 900 year old timelord. who will be much older when he meets her

I think Rose will be the true love. I believe that the relationship with River is going to be more of a predestination paradox than anything, with the Doctor doing some stuff simply because she told him he did it. It does make me wonder how much of their time that she so cherished came down to him doing it out of necessity not to FUBAR his own established events than love. River knowing the Doctor's true name at the time seemed deep and meaningful, but he still has to tell her regardless because she told the 10th and she could have told him her name when he gave the screwdriver. Nothing meaningful behind it, just "here's my screwdriver, just in case you need it and by the way my name is Roctod Ohw".

As for being older when he meets her, well since he first met her at her "death", she will be younger and he will be older when she meets him for the first time.

As for the woman, my money is on it being his mother. That said, since she was able to visit Bernard before the time lock was bypassed, I think it opens the possibility of her returning and perhaps other Ascended Timelords too since it seems that being some sort of non physical Timelord allows them to escape the lock, oh which is interested and a bit scary should Moffatt decide to do evil Ascended Timelord (namely the Master) story.

[Coco Pops]

Ascended? What?

They've been watching Stargate

[P-90_177]

doc's mother yes.

river song no. river IMO will be will true love. which is saying something for a 900 year old timelord. who will be much older when he meets her

I doubt that will really be covered all that much now. I suspect Steve Moffat will continue to hint at some sort of relationship between the Doctor and River. But don't forget that she recognised him as the tenth doctor ad we've only seen them meet (on screen) once. This means that providing they don't come up with an off screen explanation that time has changed somewhat from the history River suggested.

Besides that I'm not fond of the idea of the Doctor falling for an ordinary human........I mean he did that with Rose and look where that got him. Broken and lonely. Hopefully Moffat won't be doing as much shipping with his companions and other humans. (having said that I'm sure there will be some to keep people watching. The doctor always has unsaid feelings for his companions. It's just a matter of how strong they are. )

I think Rose will be the true love. I believe that the relationship with River is going to be more of a predestination paradox than anything, with the Doctor doing some stuff simply because she told him he did it. It does make me wonder how much of their time that she so cherished came down to him doing it out of necessity not to FUBAR his own established events than love. River knowing the Doctor's true name at the time seemed deep and meaningful, but he still has to tell her regardless because she told the 10th and she could have told him her name when he gave the screwdriver. Nothing meaningful behind it, just "here's my screwdriver, just in case you need it and by the way my name is Roctod Ohw".

As for being older when he meets her, well since he first met her at her "death", she will be younger and he will be older when she meets him for the first time.

As for the woman, my money is on it being his mother. That said, since she was able to visit Bernard before the time lock was bypassed, I think it opens the possibility of her returning and perhaps other Ascended Timelords too since it seems that being some sort of non physical Timelord allows them to escape the lock, oh which is interested and a bit scary should Moffatt decide to do evil Ascended Timelord (namely the Master) story.

See with the Doctor Regenerating again I doubt we'll hear much mention of Rose ever again. Odd drops of the name perhaps. But in the end Rose was the 9th and 10th doctors companion. The 11th will have nothing to do with her which means he won't have any of those feelings he had before get built up.
I'd also prefer to find out that while river loves the doctor, the "one time he ever could" tell her his name wasn't anything as benign as marriage. I don't see it as the doctors style to get married. (Not anymore anyway. He probably was in the past on Gallifrey)

[Flyboy]

Regarding River recognising the Doctor -

She does not have to have previously met Doctor 10 before. Let us not forget 'Battlefield' in which the Brig recognised the Doctor, despite him having regenerated (twice) since their last encounter. I suspect it's all about context.

[P-90_177]

Regarding River recognising the Doctor -

She does not have to have previously met Doctor 10 before. Let us not forget 'Battlefield' in which the Brig recognised the Doctor, despite him having regenerated (twice) since their last encounter. I suspect it's all about context.

Yes she also says "it was early days for them" and asks a number of questions about where they have been yet. It's only when he doesn't recognise any of them that she decides that he's a lot younger than the doctor she knows. This would indicate that she does know the tenth.

[Coco Pops]

I doubt that will really be covered all that much now. I suspect Steve Moffat will continue to hint at some sort of relationship between the Doctor and River. But don't forget that she recognised him as the tenth doctor ad we've only seen them meet (on screen) once. This means that providing they don't come up with an off screen explanation that time has changed somewhat from the history River suggested.

Besides that I'm not fond of the idea of the Doctor falling for an ordinary human........I mean he did that with Rose and look where that got him. Broken and lonely. Hopefully Moffat won't be doing as much shipping with his companions and other humans. (having said that I'm sure there will be some to keep people watching. The doctor always has unsaid feelings for his companions. It's just a matter of how strong they are. )



See with the Doctor Regenerating again I doubt we'll hear much mention of Rose ever again. Odd drops of the name perhaps. But in the end Rose was the 9th and 10th doctors companion. The 11th will have nothing to do with her which means he won't have any of those feelings he had before get built up.
I'd also prefer to find out that while river loves the doctor, the "one time he ever could" tell her his name wasn't anything as benign as marriage. I don't see it as the doctors style to get married. (Not anymore anyway. He probably was in the past on Gallifrey)

What he becomes a love them and leave them kind of guy then LOL?

[Coco Pops]

I am a little miffed that Donna once again got no closure..

I mean if that was Timelord stuff why didn't they remove it with the Chameleon Arch in the TARDIS?

And I find it annoyingly simple that there's a "circuit breaker" inside Donna's head to stop her remembering... You'd think with all the places the Doc has been and all the stuff they have witnessed he would find a way for her to keep those precious memories of her time with him.


And he forced that upon her she didn't want to lose the memories. Far better had she died in Journey's End then be made into a mere shadoow of herself as she is post JE..

[P-90_177]

What he becomes a love them and leave them kind of guy then LOL?

Yeah. Well he's like that with all other events of his life so it should be the sa with love.

[nx01a]

:'(

The Good:
>Rassilon! The Hand of Omega! Romana! [The Doctor's mother? Seriously. Where did that speculation come from?!]
>The Doctor pulled a gun on James Bond.
>Weeping Angels mention!
>The last 20 minutes. I was misty eyed. Rose! Sarah Jane!
>The Master stumbles into the light, saving the universe.
>David Tennant was brilliant. I didn't want him to go, either.
>The Doctor called Donna his best friend.
>An alien gay bar?! SO many Who aliens!
>The Time Lords becoming 'evil' and effectively creating the Master. Wow. Poor Doctor. He's had to kill his people twice now... or, as the timelock has been retconned, he's sentenced them to dying eternally.
>The list of the horrors unleashed during the final days of the Time War. Wow. Gotta love RTD for abstract, conceptual enemies we never see... as opposed to Moffat's abstract, conceptual enemies we actually see.
>The Doctor's rant at Wilf. Stupid, stupid humans who keep getting themselves or other people killed.
>Wilf knocking 4 times. Brilliant.
>The female cactus. My woman knew exactly when to get the heck out, and she did. "He said he was dying..."
>The Master Victorious! The Master Unobservant!
>Matt Smith's still not ginger. Matt Smith certainly has the frantic energy necessary to be the Doctor. I have no real way to gauge his performance yet, but he'll definitely handle running around the TARDIS console.

The Bad:
>Almost everything not involving the Time Lords or the last 20 minutes.
>Having said ^... SO much of the last 20 minutes only made a connection on an emotional level but didn't work story-wise:

Spoiler:

>Donna? WTF?! It's like being left with that retarded B4 at the end of ST: Nemesis. It looks like someone we love, but it's a neutered version. Like money could possibly compare to the wonders she experienced and, more importantly, the person she became. I'm disappointed.
>Smith and Jones? RTD married off the two black people on the show? Seriously?
>Jack and Alonso? Gay guys obviously meet each other in bars. I realize they were both sad and lost [though Alonso lost his ship a few years ago...] but still... AND it really makes Ianto seem like just another boink in Jack's long life of boinks. Maybe Alonso is The One, but I doubt it.

>They blew up the TARDIS?! Sigh. I loved the organic interior, but I suppose everything changes once RTD leaves.

The Ugly:
>Joshua Naismith and Abigail Naismith. WTF?!

The Verdict:
The one scene that really made me feel AND made sense was when the Doctor goes back in time to see Rose one last time. The rest of it was just... Iffy. I enjoyed it overall, but Waters of Mars was definitely the best of the specials, and Planet of the Dead was actually better to me than The End of Time.
I'm sorry to see David Tennant go, but I'm certainly glad to see RTD head off. His ability to write wonderful TV [Children of Earth, Waters of Mars] is sadly outweighed by his ability to write junk [The Next Doctor and several parts of this special]. Maybe Moffat will do a better job and not try to be funny and fail.