Kill the Moon (3407/807)

[StargateMillennium]

So?
Sometimes things don't need a debate, Certainly Courtney did not need one to state her POV. As to how he treated the situation, he let the humans involved make EVERY decision. Did he make his case? Sure. Did he enforce it? No.
To HIM it was a purely right or wrong answer, so what?

Where is this "moral Greyness"?
Saving your own arse is NOT moral, it IS understandable however.
The Doctor never said humanity would die if they let it hatch, In fact, they even COVERED what may happen if the moon was gone, and it was not a species extinction event. He DID cover what it would be like to have a giant corpse floating the Earth to keep it's tides and toys in line however.

Where is this "moral Greyness"?
Saving your own arse is NOT moral, it IS understandable however.
The Doctor never said humanity would die if they let it hatch, In fact, they even COVERED what may happen if the moon was gone, and it was not a species extinction event. He DID cover what it would be like to have a giant corpse floating the Earth to keep it's tides and toys in line however.

The Doctor insisted to the very end of the episode he had no idea what would happen. Yeah they covered what would happen if the moon hatched, and while they did mention it might just leave and its shell shatter, they also brought up the possibility of massive egg shells falling to earth or the baby attacking earth. When Clara sent her transmission she said they had to choose 'between an innocent life and the future of all mankind'. Up until the very end when the Doctor comes back and brings everybody to watch the hatch, they operated under the belief that it was two absolutes. (Analogy still valid). The Doctor made no mention nor hint that the hatching would have no effect. In fact the whole climax was the choosing between Earth (several billion people) and the creature. The moral grey is not saving yourself but choosing between a baby (one life) and several billion people (many lives). Clara’s whole rant at the end was because she was angry she was forced into that situation to choose between what seemed like two absolutes, she treated the situation as a moral grey.
Outright sacrifice a child or risk billions of lives in a game of chance? One big corpse in the sky or a chancing a carpet of corpses on the ground?

[Gatefan1976]

The Doctor insisted to the very end of the episode he had no idea what would happen.

Sure, he did indeed say that, but both he and Clara -knew- humanity would survive, no matter what decision was made.

Yeah they covered what would happen if the moon hatched, and while they did mention it might just leave and its shell shatter, they also brought up the possibility of massive egg shells falling to earth or the baby attacking earth. When Clara sent her transmission she said they had to choose 'between an innocent life and the future of all mankind'.

And there is the error. Humanity voted to kill the moon based on the assumption it was "us or it", that is not a moral decision to make, it's a save your own skin decision.

Up until the very end when the Doctor comes back and brings everybody to watch the hatch, they operated under the belief that it was two absolutes. (Analogy still valid).

Humanity did, Lundvik did. Cortney did not care, and Clara should have known better (which she must of at some level to stop the bombs).

The Doctor made no mention nor hint that the hatching would have no effect.

Agreed

In fact the whole climax was the choosing between Earth (several billion people) and the creature. The moral grey is not saving yourself but choosing between a baby (one life) and several billion people (many lives).

That was Lundviks POV, sure. She was not the only one up there though, was she. Courtney never voted to kill the beastie, and the Doctor HOPED Clara would make the same choice he would.

Clara’s whole rant at the end was because she was angry she was forced into that situation to choose between what seemed like two absolutes, she treated the situation as a moral grey.

She was never forced into anything. Everything that happened in the ep was up to the humans involved. Every key decision was up to them. Clara just did not like being put into the position she asks of the Doctor all the time, to make the hard call.

Outright sacrifice a child or risk billions of lives in a game of chance? One big corpse in the sky or a chancing a carpet of corpses on the ground?

The key word there is CHANCE. The train analogy requires an either/or decision, with no chance of any other outcome, and that was not the case here. In fact the chance is what gave the Earth a new moon, and the desire to look to the skies and see something wonderous for themselves.

[StargateMillennium]

Sure, he did indeed say that, but both he and Clara -knew- humanity would survive, no matter what decision was made.

Yet, when the astronaut, who is now aware they are time travelers and such, said that massive chunks of the moon will fall onto the earth in for an extinction level event, Clara countered not with her knowing humanity survives but that it is an egg shell and not rock. The choice between killing the moon and risking several billion lives was what the story climax revolved around. She even said in her transmission that she doesn't know whether or not it will 'hurt us, help us, or just leave us alone'. And the 'terrible decision' isn't very terrible if she knows hatching it will do nothing. And, Clara knows from the Ice Warrior episode that the past can be changed.

And there is the error. Humanity voted to kill the moon based on the assumption it was "us or it", that is not a moral decision to make, it's a save your own skin decision.

I'm referring to the people who have access to the nukes. Clara asked earth because she couldn't make the decision to just risk people's lives so she told them (the people whose lives would be at risk) so they could help make a decision for her. For her, it was a moral decision over risking billions or not take the chance.

That was Lundviks POV, sure. She was not the only one up there though, was she. Courtney never voted to kill the beastie, and the Doctor HOPED Clara would make the same choice he would.

It's not just for the character's but the whole story. This was the climax before the resolution, the peak before the falling action. The tension meant for that scene was from having to make a supposedly impossible choice. If she knew that hatching the moon would not hurt earth there would be no tension and no conflict.

She was never forced into anything. Everything that happened in the ep was up to the humans involved. Every key decision was up to them. Clara just did not like being put into the position she asks of the Doctor all the time, to make the hard call.

The doctor just left her in the room with the nukes. She only had two options of disarming them or let them blow. You just called it a hard call. If she knew the hatching moon wasn't going to do anything then there wouldn't be much difficulty in the decision. She was angry at the because of the difficulty of making that decision, because there was no clear cut right or wrong (moral grey).

The key word there is CHANCE. The train analogy requires an either/or decision, with no chance of any other outcome, and that was not the case here. In fact the chance is what gave the Earth a new moon, and the desire to look to the skies and see something wonderous for themselves.

So, in the one life or the many lives decision, the chance that the choosing one life will also spare the many lives removes any moral greyness? That the person who sacrifices the one, because he is not willing to put the lives of billions of people at risk, is in the wrong?

[skatz4]

Big fan of the new doctor, however I am a fan and will moan and groan and watch every week with anticipation. Positives, the doctor, and the episode itself. Negatives, Clara and Pink have no chemistry and with Clara's tamtrum I am finding her boring.

[Gatefan1976]

Yet, when the astronaut, who is now aware they are time travelers and such, said that massive chunks of the moon will fall onto the earth in for an extinction level event, Clara countered not with her knowing humanity survives but that it is an egg shell and not rock. The choice between killing the moon and risking several billion lives was what the story climax revolved around.

Why is the Doctor responsible for how Clara chooses to say something, and how Lundvik responds to what Clara said?
As for that being the Climax of the story, we will have to agree to disagree there, because there is a lot more story going on after that happens.

She even said in her transmission that she doesn't know whether or not it will 'hurt us, help us, or just leave us alone'. And the 'terrible decision' isn't very terrible if she knows hatching it will do nothing. And, Clara knows from the Ice Warrior episode that the past can be changed.

Listen, we went to dinner, in Berlin in 1937, right? We didn't nip out and kill Hitler, I've never killed Hitler, and you would not expect me to kill Hitler. The future is no more malleable than the past.

Some things can be changed, some cannot. Why did The Doctor Never kill Hitler, he has certainly had the chance -in show-, and why did he not give Winston Churchill tech, or allow him to keep those awesome space capable spitfires. Because some things cannot be changed, and some things are not up to him. He was trying to teach Clara something, and she did not want to accept it.

I'm referring to the people who have access to the nukes.

that would be Clara, Lindvak and Courtney.

Clara asked earth because she couldn't make the decision to just risk people's lives so she told them (the people whose lives would be at risk) so they could help make a decision for her. For her, it was a moral decision over risking billions or not take the chance.

Then why did she not let the nukes go off?

It's not just for the character's but the whole story. This was the climax before the resolution, the peak before the falling action. The tension meant for that scene was from having to make a supposedly impossible choice. If she knew that hatching the moon would not hurt earth there would be no tension and no conflict.

Well, that's where we see a fundamental difference in the story, one I don't think we can get over via discussion. I feel the decision weather to bomb or not to bomb is the side story, not the main part of it.

The doctor just left her in the room with the nukes. She only had two options of disarming them or let them blow. You just called it a hard call. If she knew the hatching moon wasn't going to do anything then there wouldn't be much difficulty in the decision. She was angry at the because of the difficulty of making that decision, because there was no clear cut right or wrong (moral grey).

She knew that humanity survived, she knew that there was a moon of some description. With all the information she had, no, I don't think it was a Us Vs It extinction question. I do agree however it was a hard call to make. There is our point of difference, and that's cool.

So, in the one life or the many lives decision, the chance that the choosing one life will also spare the many lives removes any moral greyness? That the person who sacrifices the one, because he is not willing to put the lives of billions of people at risk, is in the wrong?

Again, I don't think that was the question at hand, and if Clara listened to what the Doctor said, she may not have seen it that way either.

[Spimman]

Indeed.. The human race lost interest in going to space.. How is that possible? Titan is right there! How can anyone not want to go to Titan?

I wonder what kind of creature is inside that egg? How many other moons of Saturn do you think will hatch along with Titan? I hope it hatches before we build a colony on it otherwise when the newly born creature immediately lays and new egg bigger than itself I'm doubtful it will lay a new colony

[The Flyattractor]

Indeed.. The human race lost interest in going to space.. How is that possible? Titan is right there! How can anyone not want to go to Titan?

They pulled the same drama back in the Troughton episode. "The Seeds of Death". And that ep took place during the ACTUAL Space Race.

But yes. I can see Humanity losing interest into Space Travel. They hardly do it on DW any more.

[BruTak]

Indeed.. The human race lost interest in going to space.. How is that possible?

Quite easily. It's expensive, it's dangerous, it's not glamorous/sexy, and the Hippies complain that it's bad for the environment.

The Space Shuttle programme had been cancelled and the three remaining flightworthy Shuttes are now quietly rusting away in various Air and Space Museums.

So now if NASA wants to get a man to or from the International Space Station, they have to go cap in hand to the Russians or the Chinese.

[Spimman]

The Space Shuttle programme had been cancelled and the three remaining flightworthy Shuttes are now quietly rusting away in various Air and Space Museums.

So now if NASA wants to get a man to or from the International Space Station, they have to go cap in hand to the Russians or the Chinese.

While there is truth in this, the program is far from cancelled...it has shifted into a private\public partnership with the first private launches of cargo already being sent via SpaceX and Orbital Sciences. NASA will start using SpaceX and Boeing as early as next year to send Astronauts into space.

Also, Sir Richard Branson (via Virgin Galactic) is almost ready to start flying his SpaceShip2 into suborbital space to anyone with $250,000. This list could continue and there are a dozen or more legitimate private companies with major plans in space over the next decade.

I'd say the future of the human race in space is looking quite good at this point!

[Quizziard]

Quite easily. It's expensive, it's dangerous, it's not glamorous/sexy, and the Hippies complain that it's bad for the environment.

The Space Shuttle programme had been cancelled and the three remaining flightworthy Shuttes are now quietly rusting away in various Air and Space Museums.

So now if NASA wants to get a man to or from the International Space Station, they have to go cap in hand to the Russians or the Chinese.

But there are lots of rumblings about heading for the Moon and Mars. And that's without any form of FTL development...

[Spimman]

But there are lots of rumblings about heading for the Moon and Mars. And that's without any form of FTL development...

I think we'd quickly be looking beyond Mars if FTL travel became a reality.

[Coco Pops]

Quite easily. It's expensive, it's dangerous, it's not glamorous/sexy, and the Hippies complain that it's bad for the environment.

The Space Shuttle programme had been cancelled and the three remaining flightworthy Shuttes are now quietly rusting away in various Air and Space Museums.

So now if NASA wants to get a man to or from the International Space Station, they have to go cap in hand to the Russians or the Chinese.

Boeing have their "Space Taxi" ready to go...... They are going to use it next year I think to ferry people to the ISS....

It looks like a larger version of the Apollo capsule with bigger windows. Not sure what the actual launch vehicle is though to get the capsule into orbit, and they return just like the old days.

[Coco Pops]

How was the dragon thingy able to hatch a brand new Moon after just being born?

BTW I hope that's now how the Sun is powered in Doctor Who haha

[Quizziard]

How was the dragon thingy able to hatch a brand new Moon after just being born?

BTW I hope that's now how the Sun is powered in Doctor Who haha

Especially one the same size as the egg it came from?
The whole "egg" thing is interesting but so badly thought out. 100 million years (repeated) - get a grip and look in any book on astronomy.

[The Flyattractor]

Especially one the same size as the egg it came from?
The whole "egg" thing is interesting but so badly thought out. 100 million years (repeated) - get a grip and look in any book on astronomy.

I enjoyed the concept back when I saw them do it on the old SuperFriends cartoon....when I was 5.