Let's Kill Hitler (3208)

[DigiFluid]

In true Moffatt style though, this answers a number of questions whilst leaving others really glaringly wide open.

If the Silence are a religious order rather than a species, where do the aliens who we've been referring to till now as 'the Silence' fall into the hierarchy? Are they at the top and running things? If so, how are they running things when everyone forgets who they are? Strictly through post-hypnotic suggestion? If so, do subservient races know what "Silence will fall" actually means? Is Kovarian's Holy Army an alliance organized by the Silence against the Doctor in the intervening millennia between 1969 and Demons Run?

Were the Silence effective in modifying Melody/River in some way when they captured Amy back in Day of the Moon, or was that just the beginning of their plan? If so, what did they do to her?

How did baby Melody get from Demons Run back to 1969? What did the Silence do to her there? And did she actually live from 1969 up till 2011 continuously, or did she hop ahead to the 80s somehow?

[Shpshftr]

Hello, everyone. First time posting.

Usually I just come here to read the episode discussion for the various tv shows I watch. My better half doesn't
watch the shows I like, so reading here satisfies my need to talk about the shows afterward - especially when I see someone bring up points in my mind. Wanted to comment on a few things this time, though.

First, I'm with the others who don't understand why Melody Pond is trying to kill the Doctor after her regeneration into the River Song we know. When asked why by one of the characters (can't remember which one, now) why, she basically says she's programmed to do that, or some such. BUT, she must remember that she had already, successfully, carried out her objective when she killed the Doctor when she was a small child in that suit. Does her objective require her to kill him twice? Does she know something we don't, like maybe when she killed him as a child in the spacesuit, either it didn't really kill him or it wasn't really him (maybe it was flesh doctor)? Either way, she did succeed killing him this time because he died, and that would have satisfied her programming. The fact that she brought him back to life won't affect the fact that her programming was fulfilled, I don't think. An interesting side note, remembering when she and the others were there to witness the Doctor getting shot, and River shoots at the person in the suit and misses, she says, "Of course not".....as if she already knew it was she herself in the suit and this time tried to stop herself BUT she remembered back when she was in the suit and the older version of herself fired and missed, so she knew she'd miss, but had to try anyway. I love time travel shows. LOL

Next, I think I know what the Doctor whispered to her and why. In the Silence In The Library/Forest of The Dead episodes, River had to convince the Doctor (#10) to trust her and she knew the way to do that was to whisper to him his real name. She knew by then that the Doctor would trust anyone who knew his real name because he'd only tell someone he really trusted. Now, skip ahead in time to this episode (ahead for the Doctor but back in River's past). Doctor #11 was dying and he knew it. He also remembered that River told him his name back then in the Library. In order for her to do that, she had to know his name. The Doctor knew he had to tell her his name before he died so she'd know it to tell him as #10 in the Library. No, the Doctor didn't die permanently then, but at the time he was dying, he really thought it was the end, and he knew River had to be told. She responded in an almost sarcastic way, which makes sense because if he whispered for her to tell this River person (who River didn't know was herself yet) what his name was (this River that the Doctor kept talking about as if he knew her), River would imagine, as anyone would, that this River person would already know his name. Hence her sarcastic way of say, "I'm sure she knows." Cause yes, in her place, I'd be sure this River person he kept talking about would already know his name since they obviously knew each other. She was probably thinking it an odd thing to say to someone. The only thing that makes me doubt this theory and wonder if he really did tell her to tell River he loved her was her reaction to finding out she herself was River. She cried...like she just found out that the man she just killed loved her.

Hmm. Don't these comment boxes have a weird word wrap, cutting words in half, or am doing something wrong?

[DigiFluid]

BUT, she must remember that she had already, successfully, carried out her objective when she killed the Doctor when she was a small child in that suit.

We don't know if she was in the suit or not. The camera cut away before the visor opened.

Hmm. Don't these comment boxes have a weird word wrap, cutting words in half, or am doing something wrong?

It's been doing that ever since the last "upgrade" of the forum. Really annoying.

[Teddybrown]

Hello, everyone. First time posting.

Usually I just come here to read the episode discussion for the various tv shows I watch. My better half doesn't
watch the shows I like, so reading here satisfies my need to talk about the shows afterward - especially when I see someone bring up points in my mind. Wanted to comment on a few things this time, though.

First, I'm with the others who don't understand why Melody Pond is trying to kill the Doctor after her regeneration into the River Song we know. When asked why by one of the characters (can't remember which one, now) why, she basically says she's programmed to do that, or some such. BUT, she must remember that she had already, successfully, carried out her objective when she killed the Doctor when she was a small child in that suit. Does her objective require her to kill him twice? Does she know something we don't, like maybe when she killed him as a child in the spacesuit, either it didn't really kill him or it wasn't really him (maybe it was flesh doctor)? Either way, she did succeed killing him this time because he died, and that would have satisfied her programming. The fact that she brought him back to life won't affect the fact that her programming was fulfilled, I don't think. An interesting side note, remembering when she and the others were there to witness the Doctor getting shot, and River shoots at the person in the suit and misses, she says, "Of course not".....as if she already knew it was she herself in the suit and this time tried to stop herself BUT she remembered back when she was in the suit and the older version of herself fired and missed, so she knew she'd miss, but had to try anyway. I love time travel shows. LOL

Welcome fellow Whovian!
Im going to agree with Digi here, and as most of you probably already know, Im one of the people who dont think it is River who shoots the Doctor in the spacesuit.
Heres a few reasons why:
1) We were never shown who was in the suit
2) It seems too obvious
3) As some people have said, why would she try and kill the Doctor again, when she did it on the beach. But what if it isnt her on the beach and this is the first time shes tried to kill him

I have plenty of other reasons why I dont think its River in the suit, but they slip my mind at the moment.
And as Ive said already, I will happily put my hands up and say Im wrong if it is proved to be River who does shoot the Doctor (if it is, I hope theres still a Moffat twist), but till then, I stand my ground! lol

EDIT: Bloody hell! just found this clip from Lets Kill Hitler, but listen very carefully afer Rory says 'Ive got this pounding in my head'
Is it just me or does it sound like the Silence audio cut suggesting they may be there??
Heres the link

[Shpshftr]

We don't know if she was in the suit or not. The camera cut away before the visor opened.

True enough. I think I'm operating on the assumption that it was her for a number of reasons but you're right, until they specifically state that it was her, we don't really know and they could be leading us on a wild goose chase.

But what if it isnt her on the beach and this is the first time shes tried to kill him

An intriguing point. That would make this later attempt make sense. That would make me really look forward to see who they reveal the suit occupant to really be and why. Either way, I'm sure I'll enjoy whatever the actual reveal is. I'm pretty easy to please when it comes to my favorite shows (which are dropping in number as they cancel them all one by one. *sigh*).

does it sound like the Silence audio cut suggesting they may be there

Hmm...I may have to go check (I don't remember that sound), but it wouldn't surprise me if they were there. Heck, I may have to go back and watch that group of episodes to refresh the memory.

[Ian-S]

1) We were never shown who was in the suit

True, but...

2) It seems too obvious

So did the whole River being Amy's baby theory, but that turned out to be true in the end.

3) As some people have said, why would she try and kill the Doctor again, when she did it on the beach.

The only thing I can think of for this is that she reverts to her basic "programming" everytime she regenerates, a bit like Robocop's Prime Directives - it's likely that if she ever had to regenerate, it would be because she had been "killed" by the Doctor, so when she finishes regenerating, her first thought is to kill him, it may even be that she forget's that she has done it previously etc.

It wouldn't be much good creating an assassin who is immortal, but who forget's what their mission is when they are resurrected.

[Pharaoh Atem]

brillence

[Pharaoh Atem]

http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/...4/f1c9e659.jpg

the newspaper no date tnat i can tell

[Cold Fuzz]

In true Moffatt style though, this answers a number of questions whilst leaving others really glaringly wide open.

If the Silence are a religious order rather than a species, where do the aliens who we've been referring to till now as 'the Silence' fall into the hierarchy? Are they at the top and running things? If so, how are they running things when everyone forgets who they are? Strictly through post-hypnotic suggestion? If so, do subservient races know what "Silence will fall" actually means? Is Kovarian's Holy Army an alliance organized by the Silence against the Doctor in the intervening millennia between 1969 and Demons Run?

Were the Silence effective in modifying Melody/River in some way when they captured Amy back in Day of the Moon, or was that just the beginning of their plan? If so, what did they do to her?

How did baby Melody get from Demons Run back to 1969? What did the Silence do to her there? And did she actually live from 1969 up till 2011 continuously, or did she hop ahead to the 80s somehow?

I'm inclined to think that the entire plot surrounding Melody/River was an act of revenge on the part of the Silence (the aliens) for the Doctor effectively liberating Earth from their influence back in 1969. But the fact that such a large faction of humans (Kovarian's people) would serve the Silence either willingly or by manipulation indicates that outwitting the Silence using their own post-hypnotic suggestion won't nearly be enough to defeat them. I'm beginning to think that the only way for the Doctor to truly defeat them would be to have them fall inside their own cracks in and be obliterated from the timeline. What irony would that be. But if the cracks didn't actually happen... ugh. I should know better than to ponder time paradoxes past midnight.

[Alan]

http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/...4/f1c9e659.jpg

the newspaper no date tnat i can tell

Local newspapers don't tend to have dates on them. But dating that paper...judging by the look of it, the paper colour and fading...it's old. It definitely wasn't printed a day or two after the crop circles were discovered.

[BruTak]

Local newspapers don't tend to have dates on them. But dating that paper...judging by the look of it, the paper colour and fading...it's old. It definitely wasn't printed a day or two after the crop circles were discovered.

Dunno what your local paper is like, but I can assure you that mine - the Greenock Telegraph - has both day and date prominently displayed below the masthead.

[DigiFluid]

Yeah newspapers pretty much always have the date on them

Interesting other tidbits, I Googled both "Colchester Knights" and "McGriffin suspended" and got no relevant results. Apparently neither that team nor that player exist.

[DigiFluid]

I'm inclined to think that the entire plot surrounding Melody/River was an act of revenge on the part of the Silence (the aliens) for the Doctor effectively liberating Earth from their influence back in 1969. But the fact that such a large faction of humans (Kovarian's people) would serve the Silence either willingly or by manipulation indicates that outwitting the Silence using their own post-hypnotic suggestion won't nearly be enough to defeat them. I'm beginning to think that the only way for the Doctor to truly defeat them would be to have them fall inside their own cracks in and be obliterated from the timeline. What irony would that be. But if the cracks didn't actually happen... ugh. I should know better than to ponder time paradoxes past midnight.

Let me just add to your headache: if the new universe was reconstructed from the particles of the timeline experienced by the TARDIS as well as Amy's memories, both of those experienced the cracks. So shouldn't the new universe of Big Bang 2 have the Cracks in it as well?

Does your head hurt yet?

[SaberBlade]

Yeah newspapers pretty much always have the date on them

Interesting other tidbits, I Googled both "Colchester Knights" and "McGriffin suspended" and got no relevant results. Apparently neither that team nor that player exist.

There is a phone number on it too and it looks like an 01632 area code which according to wikipedia is used for TV purposes only.

Local newspapers don't tend to have dates on them. But dating that paper...judging by the look of it, the paper colour and fading...it's old. It definitely wasn't printed a day or two after the crop circles were discovered.

I think it's colour and fading is to show that the Doctor discovered it sometime in the future and used it to return to that date/time in Leadworth.

[Spimman]

Anyone else think it is possible that River was arrested before murdering the Doctor in a in a "pre-crime" kind of thing? Since those little people time travel and enforce justice?

Not sure I think that's it, but the thought occurred to me.