I didn't really enjoy this one very much. Very tame after last weeks episode.
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The Rebel Flesh (3205)
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It strikes me as a little odd that The Doctor's Wife was a single episode, while this story, which so far, frankly, feels like it could easily have been squeezed into a single episode get two episodes. Maybe it's for budget reasons, but I can honestly say the story so far hasn't really grabbed me, and I would much rather have had The Doctor's Wife as the two parter than this. But then I'm not a producer.And now it's time for one last bow, like all your other selves. Eleven's hour is over now... the clock is striking Twelve's.
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Stargate Ragnarok | FF.net | AO3 | Lakeside | My Fallout 3 Mods | Poppy Appeal | Help For Heroes | Combat Stress
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I watched this episode with friends and one of them commented that "If this is a two parter, someone at the BBC is going to die".Needless to say he was making angry noises after the credits
I see loads of people in this thread saying this episode wasn't good compared to last week's. The Doctor's Wife was a frankly brilliant story, and also a different style to this weeks. This week's episode feels much more like classic Who and I for one like that. This episode is mainly set up for next weeks, and I'm sure we'll appreciate that when we see the resolution of events. We fans are fickle too; if this was all condensed into one episode, we'd most likely complain that it felt rushed or should have been a two parterIf found, is probably lost on the way to Azaroth or the Pegasus Galaxy
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Okay, just watched it again.
So, unless I'm hearing it wrong, the Doctor definitely knows a lot more than he's saying with regards to the situation in this episode, even more than usual. The Doctor talks about a crossroads, about making the right decision, and about the Flesh being just the early stages of the technology. So presumably this is another point in history that's in flux and can have a massive impact on the future, and he knows how it originally turned out and decides to undo it.
They're mining acid and shipping it to the mainland. Why? Is this just a MacGuffin and convenient obstacle, or is it going to end up being very important to the plot?
I'm liking Amy less and less.
I wonder if mention of Rory remembering his time as living plastic will come up in the next part, since it could well be relevant to the Ganger's situation.
Did the Doctor deliberately create his duplicate, perhaps to reach out to the Gangers and the humans, show them they can co-operate? It only appears after he ducks into the chapel with the Flesh and uses his sonic on it for quite some time, then simply leaves. Or is it a byproduct of him trying to do something else with the Flesh?
So, Cleaves' crew aren't military, but contractors for the military - so what is the military's interest in the Flesh, or the acid? An ability to field armies where combat losses aren't nearly as bad because the original operator remains, or something even more sinister? The hardwiring of the minds and personalities of the operators by the electrical discharge (especially with Buzzer's mention of the Isle of Sheppey incident) - is that entirely accidental?
Liking the episode a bit more now, but it still feels a little too drawn out.Last edited by Sealurk; 22 May 2011, 01:46 PM.And now it's time for one last bow, like all your other selves. Eleven's hour is over now... the clock is striking Twelve's.
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Stargate Ragnarok | FF.net | AO3 | Lakeside | My Fallout 3 Mods | Poppy Appeal | Help For Heroes | Combat Stress
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General Review
I enjoyed this episode, and enjoyed it even more the 2nd time around because there is so much stuff to analyze. Loved how Rory was influenced by his previous experience as an Auton. I love the Doctor in arbiter mode. At the same time, this is a story element that I am actually particularly fond of, but I like to be challenged by it, and I really wasn't here. When you do a very common scifi idea like this, you typically need to add something to it, some original character moments, to make it a particularly engaging episode, and I do feel Rebel Flesh ended up being a tad too formulaic. For a two-parter, I didn't feel like there was that much going on in this half in terms of fleshing out (no pun intended) characters, etc.
The majority of the characters didn't have much personality. And it seems like the story was checking off boxes: person we think is real is actually a copy--check; the copy bemoans their stolen life--check; the copy tries to convince the original that they are just as much themselves--check; etc.
Not to mention that this seemed very similar to last season's two parter (though admittedly, The Hungry Earth put more focus on exploring our moral standing as human beings and how our choices represent us, which is more than I can say for this episode) : two parties are in contention with each other, the Doctor tries to sit them down and have everybody work out a compromise, it goes pretty well until some moron kills one of the other party, and then they declare war.
As for the ganger!Doctor, I am SO TORN. On the one hand, I LOVE it when a situation screws with my favorite characters on an existential/body horror-ish level (things like Human Nature and Midnight were pure crack for me). On the other hand, I HATE two-copies-of-the-same-character storylines because 9 times out of 10 I find the endings contrived and unsatisfying. It is so damn predictable when all of a sudden the clones of the heroes get conveniently killed 1/2 an hour later even though their real counterparts have been worming their way out of danger for 4 seasons, or some contrived reason is given for them never being able to visit their 'old lives'. *fumes* So, given the lack of originality in this episode, I don't have high hopes for how this is going to pan out, even though I am going to enjoy the ride immensely.
I also loved how, even though the Doctor is a peace-maker and not speciesist in principle, he was unnerved on a personal level by his own ganger.
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Things to Analyze, Discuss
Okay, if you skipped my review above, that's cool, but here I'd like to talk about some things that merit further discussion and analysis, because this whole episode is really about all these secrets that the Doctor is keeping, which are driving me crazy.
1)So, unless I'm hearing it wrong, the Doctor definitely knows a lot more than he's saying with regards to the situation in this episode, even more than usual.
2) Did anyone think anything of the fact that the Doctor leaves Amy and Rory in the monitoring room to go unplug the cockerel, but after the storm Amy and Rory wake up in the Flesh generating chamber? How did they get there? Did they walk back before the 2nd storm hit (or were they possibly created in that room...*strokes beard*)?
3) When Amy, the Doctor, and father-guy go into the bathroom looking for Rory, Amy and father-guy confront the Doctor about knowing something about the Flesh. When the Doctor hesitates, spinning his wheels on what to say or deciding what he can hold back--the Doctor's gaze is specifically locked with Amy's, gazing at her with concerned intensity, even though father-guy is in the room too. Is the Flesh and what the Doctor is hiding with respect to the Flesh connected specifically to Amy? Or is the Doctor's fixated behavior toward her just because he's more concerned about being accountable to Amy and being questioned by her than by the other guy? I think it is significant enough a moment that it is the former.
4)Did the Doctor deliberately create his duplicate, perhaps to reach out to the Gangers? It only appears after he ducks into the chapel with the Flesh and uses his sonic on it for quite some time, then simply leaves. Or is it a byproduct of him trying to do something else with the Flesh?
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Originally posted by jameshawking View Postfyi, he didn't create granger doctor.
While he's asking who it is, he's repeatedly saying things equivalent to "this is about to get a whole lot worse", and his pre-cog of a bad situation can easily be explained by him sensing another Time Lord (himself).
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Hm. I thought this was a decent episode. It's a pretty standard sci-fi trope - doppelgangers, that is - and plot wise, as has been said already, it didn't feel like there was anything extraordinary here. It's pretty standard fare. The characters were, as sparklegem said, rather two-dimensional; they were the standard personas one tends to get with a doppelganger story.
That being said, Jennifer was interesting to me. Her behaviour was slightly odd from the start (when she was the only one in the room that *wasn't* a ganger) - she seemed uncomfortable with the whole process, even as we watched her go through the standard procedure for 'transferring' (though we learn that's not really what it is) her consciousness. I get the feeling that there's more to her story than we know right now. I also enjoyed the scene between Jennifer and Rory in what looked to be either her room or an exercise room; between the acting (on both actors' parts) and the music (did anyone else notice the score this ep? Really good!) it was a pretty captivating scene (albeit an expected one).
I think it's brilliant that Rory is acting the way that he is - it seems to be driven by his own experiences as being a human that's other-than-human. I wasn't impressed with his character when he was first introduced, but as he becomes more complex, I find myself more interested in his story.
Originally posted by Galileo_Galilee View PostWhat the heck is it with the snow globe?
Originally posted by sparklegem View Post<snip>
2) Did anyone think anything of the fact that the Doctor leaves Amy and Rory in the monitoring room to go unplug the cockerel, but after the storm Amy and Rory wake up in the Flesh generating chamber? How did they get there? Did they walk back before the 2nd storm hit (or were they possibly created in that room...*strokes beard*)?
3) When Amy, the Doctor, and father-guy go into the bathroom looking for Rory, Amy and father-guy confront the Doctor about knowing something about the Flesh. When the Doctor hesitates, spinning his wheels on what to say or deciding what he can hold back--the Doctor's gaze is specifically locked with Amy's, gazing at her with concerned intensity, even though father-guy is in the room too. Is the Flesh and what the Doctor is hiding with respect to the Flesh connected specifically to Amy? Or is the Doctor's fixated behavior toward her just because he's more concerned about being accountable to Amy and being questioned by her than by the other guy? I think it is significant enough a moment that it is the former.
<snip>"We still commit murder because of greed and spite and jealousy, and we still visit all of our sins upon our children. We refuse to accept the responsibility for anything we've done. [...] Its not enough to survive... One has to be worthy of survival."
~William Adama
All this has happened before. All this is happening again.
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What happened to the other gangers?
After the solar storm when the cast divides into two groups, the 'real' people and the gangers, there is only one ganger for each 'real' person but earlier when the Doctor, Amy and Rory first arrived there were a couple of the 'real' people that had more than one ganger active. Hence why they get surrounded but multiple versions of the same people that are also strapped into the control machines.
Jennifer only has the one ganger and the guy that fell into the acid in the opening scene only had one ganger who is now dead but didnt the rest have two each? Where did they go? Anyone think its possible that the leader lady who shot that ganger and started the conflict will turn out to also be a ganger?Quietly, so as not to alarm anyone, she began to go insane
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Originally posted by sparklegem View Post2) Did anyone think anything of the fact that the Doctor leaves Amy and Rory in the monitoring room to go unplug the cockerel, but after the storm Amy and Rory wake up in the Flesh generating chamber? How did they get there? Did they walk back before the 2nd storm hit (or were they possibly created in that room...*strokes beard*)?
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Originally posted by Galileo_Galilee View PostWhat the heck is it with the snow globe?
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