The Big Bang (3113/513)

[Sealurk]

The two-parter had a definite strong fairy-tale feel, despite the heavy sci-fi elements.

Apparently, Moffat is a big fan of the fairy tale aspect. I think it works well, it's quite a natural fit for Who really.

[Replicator Todd]

Apparently, Moffat is a big fan of the fairy tale aspect. I think it works well, it's quite a natural fit for Who really.

Yup, while I do love sci-fi I think the fantasy-like elements just make sense and make the show even better!

[Cold Fuzz]

Apparently, Moffat is a big fan of the fairy tale aspect. I think it works well, it's quite a natural fit for Who really.

Yup, while I do love sci-fi I think the fantasy-like elements just make sense and make the show even better!

Oh I agree. The fairy tale elements created an interesting symmetry with all the time travel and other sci-fi elements to season 5. I especially liked how the season's storylines were brought full circle end we ended up back with Churchill & Bracewell again, as well as coming back to Amy's house when she was a girl hoping that somebody would fix the crack in her wall. Same places, completely different contexts, and a very deep understanding of how the Raggedy Doctor affected the little girl's imagination in the years to come.

[P-90_177]

Apparently, Moffat is a big fan of the fairy tale aspect. I think it works well, it's quite a natural fit for Who really.

It's actually quite philosophical in a way. The idea that while the universe is about science and physics it's just as much about thought and what you believe. I like that idea.

[Pandora's_Box]

Finally got around to watching the fifth series a couple of weeks ago. What a ride! Tennant was great as Ten, but that incarnation of the Doctor really was starting to drag by the end of series 4. I don't know if it was the direction RTD took the show or what, but I was really ready for something a little different, a little less emo and angst-ridden.

And what a way to end the series - on a happy note, but also with an underlying sense of dread. It's really been the hallmark of Moffat's series, I think. Fairytale, definitely, but just like any good fairytale, it's never really a totally happy ending. There's always something a little bit darker lurking beneath the surface, beneath the obvious.

Fantastic, if.... confusing episode. Unlike the other finales which get less enjoyable with each viewing, this episode is truely special. I was a bit hesitant at first... because it was an anti-climax in a lot of ways. But anti-climaxs are good. There's a reason that they exist in literature. This was a great series finale leading into lots more wonderful adventures to come.

Yes, yes, and YES. I was nodding throughout your entire "show review" and through your assessment of the finale. I couldn't agree more.

The finale relied heavily on the heart of its characters and in a series that was so much about this little girl who waited all night for her imaginary friend, about how she grows up (and doesn't), about love, and about people and their varied relationships with one another, I thought it was a very fitting finale following an episode that really ramped up the tension and raised the stakes.

If The Pandorica Opens was the part of the fairytale where the evil stepmother reveals the true nature of the "princess" at the ball and she runs home in tears, then The Big Bang was the part where the Prince tries her lost glass slipper on every woman in the realm until he finally finds her and brings her back to his world.

So, yeah, Flying Officer Bennet, I agree with you on this series of the show.

Until I got to this...

As for general content, am I the only one who dislikes the actress that plays River? I find her irritating.

I love Alex Kingston. Simply adore her as an actress and as River, and it only makes me love River more to see Alex Kingston in the role.

That and I think she and Smith have chemistry like she and Tennant never had. In both final scenes between she and Smith in series 6 (at the end of Flesh and Stone and then at the end of The Big Bang) there's a ridiculous amount of sparkage between them that makes one (or maybe just me) forget about the age difference between the actors and the characters entirely. It's awesome.

Rory. Is. Epic.

Yes. Without a doubt.

Best male companion (not including Jack or the Brigadier here) since Ian Chesterton.

The Doctor, finally, feels like the Doctor again. He feels like the old, and strange man of Classic Who.

And this is what really sold me on Matt Smith as the Doctor. He has this amazing ability to play it both young and old...often at the same time. Sure he's full of quirks, and he's crazy and eccentric and a bit mad, but you can see why he does it sometime. Because every time Matt Smith plays it serious and plays the Doctor with the full weight of 900-some (or possibly more) years in his eyes, you can see how almost impossible it would be for him convince anyone of his charm and innocence then. The eccentricity exists almost for the exact reason as the bow tie and the suspenders, his ridiculousness is, at times, necessary to appear approachable and as harmless as possible to the people around him.

Matt Smith's scene near the end of the finale when he's telling little Amelia the fairytale about the TARDIS and he sits down in the chair by her bed so slowly as if it hurts his bones to move, and talks to her so quietly and painfully, with age and tears in his eyes...well, if I'd had any doubts about his 28 year old self being able to play the Doctor they would have been shattered right there and then.

I saw The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang for the first time tonight....so very, very awesome. Moffat is amazing at the way he can intertwine so many hilarious moments with fantastic drama.

Precisely! I've got lots of friends who watch the show and I've been browsing various forums to see what people are saying and it seems like so many of the people who don't like this series say they don't because it was too light, too fluffy - that they didn't like this fairytale aspect that Moffat was "trying" to push onto the series because it wasn't dark enough.

Well, I think it takes a lot of skill to do what Moffat did in this series. To take something so whimsical as the premise of Doctor Who and weave it through with darkness, so that people can almost blink and miss it. I think if this season is considered "too light" it's because not enough attention was paid. Lives were lost, entire species were wiped out, and the Silence is still out there. And that's the point of a fairytale. It's in the very nature of the beast. It's whimsical and cutesy on the outside and some people will inevitably miss the beast with the glowing eyes lurking in the corner, or will forget about the poor wolf slit open from end to end lying dead in the forest.

Edit: Oh, and River is totally the Doctor's wife. "Yes" to what? "Yes" to both, 'cause she's married to the Doctor.

I would love it if this were true, but I'm so wary now because it seems like that idea is being pushed too heavily to actually be true. It almost seems too simple. And then Moffat goes and says things on his Twitter that drive people crazy and I JUST DON'T KNOW ANYMORE!

:: shakes fist at Moffat ::

[Cold Fuzz]

Finally got around to watching the fifth series a couple of weeks ago. What a ride! Tennant was great as Ten, but that incarnation of the Doctor really was starting to drag by the end of series 4. I don't know if it was the direction RTD took the show or what, but I was really ready for something a little different, a little less emo and angst-ridden.

And what a way to end the series - on a happy note, but also with an underlying sense of dread. It's really been the hallmark of Moffat's series, I think. Fairytale, definitely, but just like any good fairytale, it's never really a totally happy ending. There's always something a little bit darker lurking beneath the surface, beneath the obvious.



Yes, yes, and YES. I was nodding throughout your entire "show review" and through your assessment of the finale. I couldn't agree more.

The finale relied heavily on the heart of its characters and in a series that was so much about this little girl who waited all night for her imaginary friend, about how she grows up (and doesn't), about love, and about people and their varied relationships with one another, I thought it was a very fitting finale following an episode that really ramped up the tension and raised the stakes.

If The Pandorica Opens was the part of the fairytale where the evil stepmother reveals the true nature of the "princess" at the ball and she runs home in tears, then The Big Bang was the part where the Prince tries her lost glass slipper on every woman in the realm until he finally finds her and brings her back to his world.

So, yeah, Flying Officer Bennet, I agree with you on this series of the show.

Until I got to this...



I love Alex Kingston. Simply adore her as an actress and as River, and it only makes me love River more to see Alex Kingston in the role.

That and I think she and Smith have chemistry like she and Tennant never had. In both final scenes between she and Smith in series 6 (at the end of Flesh and Stone and then at the end of The Big Bang) there's a ridiculous amount of sparkage between them that makes one (or maybe just me) forget about the age difference between the actors and the characters entirely. It's awesome.



Yes. Without a doubt.

Best male companion (not including Jack or the Brigadier here) since Ian Chesterton.



And this is what really sold me on Matt Smith as the Doctor. He has this amazing ability to play it both young and old...often at the same time. Sure he's full of quirks, and he's crazy and eccentric and a bit mad, but you can see why he does it sometime. Because every time Matt Smith plays it serious and plays the Doctor with the full weight of 900-some (or possibly more) years in his eyes, you can see how almost impossible it would be for him convince anyone of his charm and innocence then. The eccentricity exists almost for the exact reason as the bow tie and the suspenders, his ridiculousness is, at times, necessary to appear approachable and as harmless as possible to the people around him.

Matt Smith's scene near the end of the finale when he's telling little Amelia the fairytale about the TARDIS and he sits down in the chair by her bed so slowly as if it hurts his bones to move, and talks to her so quietly and painfully, with age and tears in his eyes...well, if I'd had any doubts about his 28 year old self being able to play the Doctor they would have been shattered right there and then.



Precisely! I've got lots of friends who watch the show and I've been browsing various forums to see what people are saying and it seems like so many of the people who don't like this series say they don't because it was too light, too fluffy - that they didn't like this fairytale aspect that Moffat was "trying" to push onto the series because it wasn't dark enough.

Well, I think it takes a lot of skill to do what Moffat did in this series. To take something so whimsical as the premise of Doctor Who and weave it through with darkness, so that people can almost blink and miss it. I think if this season is considered "too light" it's because not enough attention was paid. Lives were lost, entire species were wiped out, and the Silence is still out there. And that's the point of a fairytale. It's in the very nature of the beast. It's whimsical and cutesy on the outside and some people will inevitably miss the beast with the glowing eyes lurking in the corner, or will forget about the poor wolf slit open from end to end lying dead in the forest.



I would love it if this were true, but I'm so wary now because it seems like that idea is being pushed too heavily to actually be true. It almost seems too simple. And then Moffat goes and says things on his Twitter that drive people crazy and I JUST DON'T KNOW ANYMORE!

:: shakes fist at Moffat ::

Yeah, I was also ready for the Doctor to finally move past his survivor's guilt about the Time War and really embrace the truth about his role in the war: He did what had to be done so save the rest of the universe because, frankly, neither the Time Lords nor the Daleks deserve existence if they're willing to wipe out everyone else in all of creation out to get their way. I'm glad that the Eleventh Doctor seemed to finally accept all of this for the most part.

The whimsy of the fifth series was one of the reasons I absolutely loved it. Though I do appreciate the drama and the seriousness of what we saw with the Tenth Doctor, I absolutely enjoyed what we got with the Eleventh throughout. I knew things were going in a direction a really liked when he tried out all those different foods and then settled on liking fish sticks with custard.

We saw that same kind of wonderfully whimsical spirit when the Eleventh Doctor could genuinely enjoy a bit of football in The Lodger as well as the "something old, something blue..." rhyme getting incorporated into The Big Bang.

I suppose I've gotten more whimsical as I've gotten older (and far less serious as when I was younger), which is why I can greatly appreciate it on something like Doctor Who when I see it.

[Pandora's_Box]

Yeah, I was also ready for the Doctor to finally move past his survivor's guilt about the Time War and really embrace the truth about his role in the war: He did what had to be done so save the rest of the universe because, frankly, neither the Time Lords nor the Daleks deserve existence if they're willing to wipe out everyone else in all of creation out to get their way. I'm glad that the Eleventh Doctor seemed to finally accept all of this for the most part.

And if not necessarily accept it, at least be able to move on from it. It's happened, it's done, it won't be changing any time soon (although once never knows on a time traveling show), and unless he's prepared to just lay down and die, then he needs to move forward from it.

We saw that same kind of wonderfully whimsical spirit when the Eleventh Doctor could genuinely enjoy a bit of football in The Lodger as well as the "something old, something blue..." rhyme getting incorporated into The Big Bang.

There's a scene included on the DVD for series 5 that's supposed to take place between Flesh and Stone and Vampires in Venice. It's right after the scene in Amy's bedroom and the Doctor has shoved her into the TARDIS. She's ready to resume where they left off and he's having none of it, so she asks him why he brought her along then. He tells her that it's because "[he] doesn't see it anymore." He doesn't see the wonder and greatness in the universe because he's seen so much of it already that it's just like looking into his backyard. But through her he can see the beauty and the greatness of it all because she sees it.

That's what I think Moffat has captured so well in the stories and what I think Matt Smith has captured so beautifully in the Doctor.

[Coco Pops]

River has to be his wife. Under what other condition would he tell her his proper name?

As for those extra scenes they are so beautiful why the hell were they cut from the episodes. Surely with DVD now they could be put back where they belong?

[DigiFluid]

As for those extra scenes they are so beautiful why the hell were they cut from the episodes. Surely with DVD now they could be put back where they belong?

That's one thing that really really frustrates me about DVD/BD releases. "Branching" video has been around since the early days of DVD, which allowed for 3 different versions of Terminator 2 on the same disc without using 3x the space. There's simply no reason for other movies and shows not to be using it all the time =\



Anyway I popped into this thread to share a thought that occurred to me whilst re-watching this episode right now. I wonder: if the Doctor was erased from ever existing, how differently would the Time War have ended? Would Gallifrey still exist? Would the Daleks dominate the whole of the universe?

[Sealurk]

Anyway I popped into this thread to share a thought that occurred to me whilst re-watching this episode right now. I wonder: if the Doctor was erased from ever existing, how differently would the Time War have ended? Would Gallifrey still exist? Would the Daleks dominate the whole of the universe?

I don't think it quite works like that. His actions and their effects would remain, but nobody would remember him or know to attribute specific events to him, they'd simply accept them for what they are, like Amelia not having parents but still living in a large house. Rather than all of history being rewritten and their absence resulting in altered history, they are simply erased, even if the things they did remain. So the Time War would turn out the same way, but nobody would know - or perhaps even care - why.

Then again, Time Lords and Daleks are time sensitive and might know something was wrong...

[Pandora's_Box]

I don't think it quite works like that. His actions and their effects would remain, but nobody would remember him or know to attribute specific events to him, they'd simply accept them for what they are, like Amelia not having parents but still living in a large house. Rather than all of history being rewritten and their absence resulting in altered history, they are simply erased, even if the things they did remain. So the Time War would turn out the same way, but nobody would know - or perhaps even care - why.

Yeah, because if it worked in the way that everything that had ever been affected by the Doctor would have then existed as if he'd never been involved, then how would you explain Amy? If her parents were wiped from existence when the crack swallowed them up, then she should never have been born. But she was born, she just completely forgot her parents and everything about them.

Kind of like the perception filters (or whatever they were called) that Patient Zero used to hide himself in the house all those years and that was used in The Lodger to create the second floor of the house. It's just something you know, but never think too hard about or question.

[Coco Pops]

Again it bugs me.... How did River still remember the Doctor AFTER the Big Bang resets everything and manages to give Amy the blank blue diary so that she would remember the Doctor and bring him back and then the Diary is back to normal?

For that matter where exactly was the Doctor hiding that he had already changed his clothes and knew Amy would bring him back? That bugs me.

[DigiFluid]

Again it bugs me.... How did River still remember the Doctor AFTER the Big Bang resets everything and manages to give Amy the blank blue diary so that she would remember the Doctor and bring him back and then the Diary is back to normal?

I think that's just part of the greater mystery of River Song. Who and what is she?

For that matter where exactly was the Doctor hiding that he had already changed his clothes and knew Amy would bring him back? That bugs me.

Time machine! We've no idea at what point in history the Doctor returned to reality. Could be 102 AD, could be 1996 (when Amy was a child), could be anywhen. Which means the Doctor would have all the time in the world to get himself changed and then pop the TARDIS in on Amy and Rory's wedding.

[Coco Pops]

I think that's just part of the greater mystery of River Song. Who and what is she?


Time machine! We've no idea at what point in history the Doctor returned to reality. Could be 102 AD, could be 1996 (when Amy was a child), could be anywhen. Which means the Doctor would have all the time in the world to get himself changed and then pop the TARDIS in on Amy and Rory's wedding.

BUT........BUT.........Before Amy remembered he would not have existed so how cold he be back?

[DigiFluid]

BUT........BUT.........Before Amy remembered he would not have existed so how cold he be back?

Wibbley-wobbley timey-wimey Traditional hard-and-fast rules of time travel as we see in other sci-fi series don't always apply in the Whoniverse. There's no reason to expect them to conform here either.



And actually another thought on River remembering....

Stephen Moffatt stories are pretty good (or bad, if that's how you want to look at it) for using paradoxes to resolve plot problems. In Blink, Sally was guided by the Doctor's videos. The Doctor's videos were made by his reading the script to the videos written by Larry. Larry wrote the script while watching the videos. Paradox.

Similar stuff happened again in The Big Bang. The Doctor was locked in the Pandorica. A future version of him got Rory to unlock the Pandorica to let him out, which allowed him to go back and get Rory to do that in the first place. Paradox.

Perhaps River's involvement in restoring the Doctor is more of the same. For instance.... The restored Doctor sent River back to a time when he wasn't yet restored to give Amy the journal, so that he could could restore himself. And in the meanwhile the journal pages remained blank because he hadn't yet been restored to reality. Another paradox.


I'm not saying that this is HOW IT IS. Just thinking aloud.