Is Defiance a major flop for Syfy?

[garhkal]

The show is decent enough to keep me watching, but its NOT in the league of SGu/SGa or SG1 for how good Sci fi shows can be.

[jelgate]

I have seen this so many times before. A person spins the numbers to justify thier claim of this show is going to fail or this show will last forever. Everything I read in here seems like an apples to oranges comparasion

[RealmOfX]

I think people who don't recognize that Defiance has been a major failure for Syfy are probably the same people who so strongly supported Stargate:Universe. There is a subset of scifi viewers who will rate any scifi show strongly regardless as to how bad it it.

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So anyone who does not agree with you 100% has bad taste in sci fi eh? That's laughable.

Are you arguing that Defiance is a flop for Syfy because it doesn't measure up to your expectations or Syfy's? You jump between implying it's a flop for not meeting an idea of Syfy returning to credible sci fi (again is this your idea or Syfy's stated aim?) and it being a ratings flop (though it's clear you do not have an understanding of ratings. For example among other things you compare Live +7 figures against Live +SD and compare shows airing on different nights and in different seasons).

Now before I go any further I'll say that I don't think that Defiance is a raging success, however I do not think that for Syfy it's a major flop either. My personal opinion of the show is that it's decent, I can park my brain each week and just enjoy it whilst being disappointed that they aren't pursuing the show to it's full potential in story lines. It's nothing special but neither is it excruciatingly bad. It's not must see TV for me and I won't lament endlessly if I miss an ep.

Now back to "Is Defiance a major flop for Syfy?".

In my opinion at the moment, no.

Your reasoning that because there are more viewers on Monday nights then the viewer figures for Syfy shows on Monday should therefore be higher than Friday shows is seriously flawed and does not take into account what numbers Syfy has pulled in previously nor the viewing habits across the entire TV landscape. Syfy scripted shows do not pull in really high numbers on the more contested nights of the week and it has only been in the past few years that they have even tried. A point to note however is that those more contested nights actually draw higher advertising revenue and so can theoretically pull lower numbers than say Friday nights.

Your ratings argument that Defiance is a flop by comparing it on more than one occasion to Sanctuary is seriously flawed too. I'll ignore the fact that we are comparing numbers from different nights, during different seasons and five years apart for simplicity sake but will point out that it is comparing apples and oranges. Quite frankly the numbers are similar and Sanctuary was a successful show that aired for 4 years and only got cancelled because the private backers withdrew their funding. Defiance's numbers so far are quite similar so why is it a major flop and Sanctuary was a success??

Here are the numbers for comparison (spoilered for space) :

Spoiler:

Episode..Defiance...Sanctuary..Coverage rating
...1.....2,727,000..2,700,000.....2.2
...2.....2,400,000..... “..........“
...3.....2,289,000................1.6
...4.....2,150,000................1.6
...5.....1,980,000................1.4
...6.....1,947,000................1.5
...7.....1,690,000................1.5
...8.....1,908,000..1,746,000.....1.4
...9.....1,600,000..1,538,000.....1.2
..10................1,703,000.....1.4
..11................1,520,000.....1.4
..12................1,850,000.....1.4
..13................1,990,000.....1.6

*Total viewer figures were not generally available back when Sanctuary started so the Syfy coverage rating is included as a guide.

A major flop for Syfy will be one that does not make a profit and if it is bad enough it will be pulled from the air, renewal or not.

Will it last on Syfy for it's 2 seasons? That's a good question and one that is hard to answer. At the moment unless the numbers drop dramatically I'd say it will go it's 2 seasons but no more unless it lifts it's game. Of course that "lifts it's game" part is very subjective

[techs]

A major flop for Syfy will be one that does not make a profit and if it is bad enough it will be pulled from the air, renewal or not.

Will it last on Syfy for it's 2 seasons? That's a good question and one that is hard to answer. At the moment unless the numbers drop dramatically I'd say it will go it's 2 seasons but no more unless it lifts it's game. Of course that "lifts it's game" part is very subjective

I would disagree. Wrestling made money for Syfy. Yet it killed their Friday night lineup and lost the networks place as a scifi destination. Which is why Syfy had to put a bunch of money into Defiance to try and win back the fans. Mad Men loses money for AMC but the show brings viewers to the network and bolsters their other shows. A few years back NBC figured showing a low cost Jay Leno show at 10 pm would make money despite a very low viewership. They found out that it killed their morning shows since people didn't have their sets tuned to NBC when they woke up.

Syfys strong scifi lineup built the network by introducing their reality shows which made a lot of money. Now without the scifi audience their new reality shows are not doing as well.

The second season of Defiance was undoubtedly already a given before they launced the show. Syfy wasn't going to put up the money for all the sets for only 13 episodes. The two season order is only just about what one season was of the Stargates up until the later years.

Defiance could only be called a success if it was good enough science fiction to win back the fans who deserted the network. And clearly its not doing that and at this point its fair to say it can't do that.

Fanboys are science fictions biggest enemy. Accepting mediocre programming and defending it as good scifi lowers the bar for everyone.

[Gatefan1976]

I would disagree. Wrestling made money for Syfy. Yet it killed their Friday night lineup and lost the networks place as a scifi destination.

But you claimed Friday nights were a deathslot?? Make up your mind dude, Is it a "scifi destination" or a "Deathslot."

Which is why Syfy had to put a bunch of money into Defiance to try and win back the fans. Mad Men loses money for AMC but the show brings viewers to the network and bolsters their other shows.

Most flagship shows loose money for Syfy/Scifi. SG-1 did, SGA did, SGU did, W13, Sanctuary, the ALL did not "make money" specifically, why do you think Defiance would be different?

A few years back NBC figured showing a low cost Jay Leno show at 10 pm would make money despite a very low viewership. They found out that it killed their morning shows since people didn't have their sets tuned to NBC when they woke up.

There is a difference between supposed "news" and "entertainment"

Syfys strong scifi lineup built the network by introducing their reality shows which made a lot of money. Now without the scifi audience their new reality shows are not doing as well.

Yes, they have damaged their reputation, no argument here.

The second season of Defiance was undoubtedly already a given before they launced the show. Syfy wasn't going to put up the money for all the sets for only 13 episodes. The two season order is only just about what one season was of the Stargates up until the later years.

13 is getting to be the standard now unfortunately. Of course, you could see it as "fortunately" so the producers can react faster to criticism which flows much quicker these days.

Defiance could only be called a success if it was good enough science fiction to win back the fans who deserted the network. And clearly its not doing that and at this point its fair to say it can't do that.

No, you and most viewers rate it's "success" on weather we want to want to watch it or not, and for most people who have commented on this (myself included) think it has "failed to capture an audience". What we DON'T see is if the show has sold more Dodges, Sold more Comcast internet connections, Sold more cable Subscriptions and sold more games. Ratings will only ever tell you so much, and with this project, it simply is not enough. If they lost 40 Million in producing the show but secured 100 million in every other field, it IS a commercial success, that's just the facts weather we as viewers like it or not.

Fanboys are science fictions biggest enemy. Accepting mediocre programming and defending it as good scifi lowers the bar for everyone.

Who is accepting it?
No one is really "loving it", they are just looking beyond where you are, that's all dude.

[medegno51]

Fanboys are science fictions biggest enemy. Accepting mediocre programming and defending it as good scifi lowers the bar for everyone.

Hmm, I guess my response to that barb is supposed to be, "Ouch!", I think...

But it will not be.

I gave SGU a chance for two long seasons; it wound up letting me down during most of S1, but I stuck with it through S2, and was pleasantly surprised. Again, I still *gave it a chance*.

I will also give Defiance a chance, as well. I am not absolutely 'wowed' by it so far this season, but it does just enough to be keep intrigued as to where the plotlines could be heading-- especially after revealing a very dark past between Nikky and her 'daughter', the lady doctor.

Just keep the lemming-fanboy talk to yourself until Defiance actually totally FLOPS, after which we will all have a proper post mortem on SyFy’s latest production victim

[escyos]

Hmm, I guess my response to that barb is supposed to be, "Ouch!", I think...

But it will not be.

I gave SGU a chance for two long seasons; it wound up letting me down during most of S1, but I stuck with it through S2, and was pleasantly surprised. Again, I still *gave it a chance*.

I will also give Defiance a chance, as well. I am not absolutely 'wowed' by it so far this season, but it does just enough to be keep intrigued as to where the plotlines could be heading-- especially after revealing a very dark past between Nikky and her 'daughter', the lady doctor.

Just keep the lemming-fanboy talk to yourself until Defiance actually totally FLOPS, after which we will all have a proper post mortem on SyFy’s latest production victim

Agreed. Don't start cooking the pow until its dead.

I however disagree with techs, fanboys keep franchises going and they exist in just about EVERY scifi show that has ever existed. Would you call someone who likes star trek a fan boy? Probably but it was their fanboyishness that allowed those shows to keep going.

Defiance is a once in a lifetime thing, its scifi and one of the richest shows from the get go yet people still want to complain about it not being firefly or stargate. And despite all their complaints Defiance is and always will be TRANSMEDIA. Go they better get used to it, because other shows will follow suit.

[techs]

I just saw online that an episode of Defiance costs Syfy 2.5 million dollars. An episode of
Sanctuary cost Syfy 1 million dollars. Yet, they both have about the same viewership. Scary.

Oh, it cost Syfy about 2 million dollars an episode for SGU.

[Nolamom]

maybe they will and maybe they won't. If the transmedia thing is found to be wanting, why would other shows follow that formula? It's a test. Sometimes products pass the test and become successful, other times they fail the test and are cast on the junk heap. How many people are buying the product, are satisfied with the product, and become repeat customers? We've all seen products introduced that didn't make it. Often introduced with a great deal of fanfare, lots of money invested, and so forth. That doesn't make it a good product. Sometimes the product can be improved and then becomes successful.

That's where Defiance is at the moment in my opinion. It's a new product that has been introduced and could stand some improvement if it is to become a complete success.

[RealmOfX]

I just saw online that an episode of Defiance costs Syfy 2.5 million dollars. An episode of
Sanctuary cost Syfy 1 million dollars. Yet, they both have about the same viewership. Scary.

Oh, it cost Syfy about 2 million dollars an episode for SGU.

Syfy did not make Sanctuary and it cost the producers My Plastic Badger (Kindler, Tapping & Wood) over $1.6 million per ep in the first season and just under $2 million in the last seasons. SGU cost more than $2 mil, probably somewhere between $2.4 mil and $3 mil (based on reports that Sanctuary had a budget 2/3 of theirs).

[techs]

Syfy did not make Sanctuary and it cost the producers My Plastic Badger (Kindler, Tapping & Wood) over $1.6 million per ep in the first season and just under $2 million in the last seasons. SGU cost more than $2 mil, probably somewhere between $2.4 mil and $3 mil (based on reports that Sanctuary had a budget 2/3 of theirs).

Actually it cost the producers about 1.44 million US dollars since the US dollar was worth about 10 percent more at the time. Syfy only paid the makers of Sanctuary about 1 million dollars to air the first season episodes with the remainder of the costs for the studio expected to be made up in DVD sales and airing rights to be sold to other countries.

[RealmOfX]

Actually it cost the producers about 1.44 million US dollars since the US dollar was worth about 10 percent more at the time. Syfy only paid the makers of Sanctuary about 1 million dollars to air the first season episodes with the remainder of the costs for the studio expected to be made up in DVD sales and airing rights to be sold to other countries.

No, it cost over $1.6 mil. When the first season was being produced the Canadian / US exchange rate was between 0.99 and 1.01, no need to devalue there.

Making comparisons between production costs and licensing fees isn't really sensible, there are too many different variables involved. By the way where did you get the info about Sanctuary's licensing fee? (I'm not asking to be mean and go "prove it" but because I am genuinely interested in finding sources for this type of info) Generally Syfy is not in the habit of making public those kind of details.

While we're at it, where did you see the info on how much Defiance costs per ep because I have seen different info on Adweek where they said that Syfy confirmed that the Defiance series portion of the total $105 mil was $40 mil.

[escyos]

maybe they will and maybe they won't. If the transmedia thing is found to be wanting, why would other shows follow that formula? It's a test. Sometimes products pass the test and become successful, other times they fail the test and are cast on the junk heap. How many people are buying the product, are satisfied with the product, and become repeat customers? We've all seen products introduced that didn't make it. Often introduced with a great deal of fanfare, lots of money invested, and so forth. That doesn't make it a good product. Sometimes the product can be improved and then becomes successful.

That's where Defiance is at the moment in my opinion. It's a new product that has been introduced and could stand some improvement if it is to become a complete success.

Defiance is the first transmedia on this scale. Many shows have had online information for them and others have spawned books, games, trading cards etc. Its not a new thing, its just the next step. And it has been noted that many of these other media do gather quite a following (even ones that are not canon) and so a sci-fi show that refuses to embrace that will die.

[Nolamom]

Heck, I could get a Munsters lunchbox back in the 60s. Just because a show spawns books, games, etc. does not make it transmedia. It's marketing. Product licensing fees can be a significant source of revenue. However, the shows themselves were never dependent on outside "stuff" to fill in the blanks as it were. No, this is the first show that I can recall that initiated with a tie-in that was required of the viewer if they wanted the entire program. Not the same thing as after-the-fact generation of additional products. Yes, there have been movies made from video games (Tomb Raider for example), I've even read books based on games, but those are not dependent on the audience actually having played the game or even be familiar with it. I just think that Defiance is not giving the whole story on the screen, but hoping that the audience will jump to their bidding by exploring other content. Hopefully even purchasing their game. Is it a 43 minute weekly infomercial for their gaming product, or is it scripted entertainment?

[escyos]

Heck, I could get a Munsters lunchbox back in the 60s. Just because a show spawns books, games, etc. does not make it transmedia. It's marketing. Product licensing fees can be a significant source of revenue. However, the shows themselves were never dependent on outside "stuff" to fill in the blanks as it were. No, this is the first show that I can recall that initiated with a tie-in that was required of the viewer if they wanted the entire program. Not the same thing as after-the-fact generation of additional products. Yes, there have been movies made from video games (Tomb Raider for example), I've even read books based on games, but those are not dependent on the audience actually having played the game or even be familiar with it. I just think that Defiance is not giving the whole story on the screen, but hoping that the audience will jump to their bidding by exploring other content. Hopefully even purchasing their game. Is it a 43 minute weekly infomercial for their gaming product, or is it scripted entertainment?

Yes but you could say that many books, games etc fill in the gaps, JM's blog for example.

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