Pegasus (210)

[Blue Banrigh]

If he is a Cylon we haven't seen him before but he kinda looks like Aaron Doral (the reporter one). Kinda.

[Caprice]

If he is a Cylon we haven't seen him before but he kinda looks like Aaron Doral (the reporter one). Kinda.

Ya know, I thought he looked a little suspicious for some reason too.

[MASON]

Ya know, I thought he looked a little suspicious for some reason too.

He was acting like Dorral when out of PR guy mode, in other words, like he had a stick up his a**. But then, weren't all the Pegasus crew? I've heard the guy that played Stinger, the CAG, was actually on another show, I can't remember which one, though.

[Lightsabre]

There are three parts to this post.

Part 1: In defense of the Pegasus crew:

1: What happened to 6-Gina is understandable. She is a Cylon. the crew of PSG didn't have the likable Lt. Sharon Valerii to get to know first. To them, she is an it. A toaster with a thin veneer of skin.

The fact is, Gina is a person, if not human. WHat was done to her was as wrong as a Tyrol raping Calle.

2: The crew is under duress. A lot of duress from the CO who has showed to all she's the Alpha B***H. It is known that people will take out agression on another being if they can't take it out on who they really want to hit. 6-Gina was available for almost half the crew to find "a release".

Is that an excuse for rape now? If I rape someone, can I claim duress? Or stress?
THat I needed to release agression?
No, I can't. These things are never an excuse for rape. EVER. There is no excuse for rape.

3: The crew of the Pegasus really didn't have anything to live for, unlike Galactica. The crew of Pegasus may have heard of Earth, but weren't looking for it. The only thing they wanted to do was destroy as many toasters as possible.

So because they didnt' have anything to live for, they can rape a woman?

4: The crew escaped only because they did an incredibly risky blind jump that culd have killed all of them. Many may feel they are living on borrowed time. That will tend to make one fatalistic.

Fatalisitic or not, it doesn't excuse rape. It might explain suicide, or agression, but not rape.

5: 6-Gina entered BSP and what did they get? 800 dead. That is reason enough for revenege. All straight male crew members of Pegasus could "find some relief" if they wanted it. I'm sure that any lesbian crewmembers could have "had some fun too" if they wanted.

We don't know when Gina entered BSP. The 700 dead were from the inital attack.

6: BSP had no counter weight to the military way as BSG did. The crew of BSG may have been a lot different if the rest of the civilian fleet wasn't around.

I refute this again. I think it has to do with the leadership. Adama would not have let his ship become the BSP and he would have led by example.
Cain's example is what created the BSP.

7: I doubt that Cain became Adm. B***H all at once as well as a tyrant. She may have been a tough officer to start with, but nothing more. She went completely off her compass as I think she believes they, the crew of the PSG, were all going to die at sometime so she needed to keep things as tight as possible.

That still doesn't excuse or even explain, rape and murder.

8: Another thing, in the Episode previous, 209 "Flight of the Pheonix", everyone was cheering when Helo's Sharon helped BSG slaughter the Cylon raiders. Yet so many feel sorry for Boomer and 6-Gina. Something to keep in mind.

I'm confused as to your point here

9:They needed to extract information out of 6-Gina. I will defend that statement. To get the information out of 6-Gina would have been tough. How that was to be accomplished is anyone's guess, but it needed to be done.

Information is extracted using torture, not rape. She was raped to humiliate and break her. No other reason.

Part 3:

One thing that many may have forgotten is what happened in Episode 209. In the "Flight of the Pheonix", Galactica wiped out whole squadrons of Cylon raiders and everyone was pretty excited about that, right? I would think that is how the Pegasus crew felt when 6-Gina broke. They didn't think about the consequences, only that "they won".

The difference is, those cylons were coming to kill them. Sure they had been disabled, but the BSG was in the same situation just moments before.
Those raiders they destroyed were battlefield kills, not cold blooded murder.

[anotherquestion]

The fact is, Gina is a person, if not human.
...
Is that an excuse for rape now? If I rape someone, can I claim duress? Or stress?
THat I needed to release agression?
No, I can't. These things are never an excuse for rape. EVER. There is no excuse for rape.

So because they didnt' have anything to live for, they can rape a woman?

That still doesn't excuse or even explain, rape and murder.

The difference is, those cylons were coming to kill them. Sure they had been disabled, but the BSG was in the same situation just moments before.
Those raiders they destroyed were battlefield kills, not cold blooded murder.

The problem here is that it is one thing to argue that Gina resembles a human being enough to make the case that the Pegasus crew committed rape in the full sense of the word but, at the same time, ignore the fact that the Gallactica pilots wiped out the Cylon fleet, perhaps containing dozens, or perhaps hundreds of "Gina" models on the large raiders, not to mention the thousands of other Cylon models, and they get a "free pass".

A big part of the repugnance of rape is that it is an assault on someone else who is unable to defend themselves. This is exactly the state of the Cylon fleet after the broadcast of the Cylon "anti-virus-virus". After the broadcast BSG was not "in the same situation" at all. You can dress up the "fight" by calling the destruction "battlefield kills" but they certainly weren't killed in battle. It was more like a mass execution of helpless prisoners.

I'm not defending the repeated rape or torture of Gina by the Pegasus crew. I'm just not holding the Gallactica crew in much higher esteem. Both acts were atrocities and to say otherwise seems hypocritical. What happened to the Cylons could be called a massacre without ambiguity. We don't usually celebrate massacres any more that we do great ambushes, terrific ethnic cleansings, or efficient genocides, not to mention rape or torture.

It's the power of the writing in this series, which forges for the viewers a close identification with and sympathy for the BSG crew, that we forget the niceities of moral distinction and, after seeing the behavior of a handful of crewmen, are ready to write off the entire complement of the Pegasus.

Perhaps the smallest example of this bias is the fact that many viewers were likely persuaded to regard the practice of "keeping scorecards" on the sides of Vipers as distasteful practice simply because Starbuck voiced her low opinion about it. This practice has been a time-honored tradition for all the air services (on every side) of historical conficts. After all, you can't tell your Ace combat pilots without a scorecard. On the face of it, it doesn't seem barbaric or even foolishly boastful. It does, in fact, seem to be simply a means of increasing morale and instilling a sense of competition among the fighter pilots, just as the unpleasant CAG explained to Apollo. Just because the CAG was a jerk, doesn't make the practice reprehensible.

[LCD2YOU]

I have always said that what happened to 6-Gina was wrong, but when taken from the perspective and knowledge that the crew of the Pegasus had, it takes on a different light.

There are three parts to this post.

Part 1: In defense of the Pegasus crew:

1: What happened to 6-Gina is understandable. She is a Cylon. the crew of PSG didn't have the likable Lt. Sharon Valerii to get to know first. To them, she is an it. A toaster with a thin veneer of skin.

The fact is, Gina is a person, if not human. WHat was done to her was as wrong as a Tyrol raping Calle.

Two completely different scenarios there my friend. First Callie is (or we really suspect she is) human. 6-Gina, from the perspective of the Pegasus crew is a robot with skin.

To them, "IT", 6-Gina, is nothing more to them than a nuke in a nice dress. "IT" is a machine with no rights, no feelings, nothing. To them, the only reason "IT" broke was because ITs programming couldn't handle it.

2: The crew is under duress. A lot of duress from the CO who has showed to all she's the Alpha B***H. It is known that people will take out agression on another being if they can't take it out on who they really want to hit. 6-Gina was available for almost half the crew to find "a release".

Is that an excuse for rape now? If I rape someone, can I claim duress? Or stress?
THat I needed to release agression?
No, I can't. These things are never an excuse for rape. EVER. There is no excuse for rape.

Read what I said again. I know it was wrong, you know it was wrong but we are not the Pegasus crew. We, as omniscient viewers are on the outside looking in. We have seen the issues that some of the other Cylons have had with what is going on. The crew of the Pegasus doesn't have that niceity.

We, and to a very limited extent the crew of BSG, have had the Sharon model. We watched her struggle with her dual nature. We've seen the Caprica 6 almost lose it as she wants to know real love. We've even come to understand that not all of the Cylons approve of what is going on.

The crew of the Pegasus have known nothing but death from the Cylons. To them, they are nothing but killing machines without feelings and they are not alive, even if they bleed.

3: The crew of the Pegasus really didn't have anything to live for, unlike Galactica. The crew of Pegasus may have heard of Earth, but weren't looking for it. The only thing they wanted to do was destroy as many toasters as possible.

So because they didnt' have anything to live for, they can rape a woman?

Again you're projecting your beliefs on to others. To the crew of the Pegasus, IT is not a woman. IT is a blow up doll, a robot with skin. That is what you fail to see here. You can't or won't see things their point of view from the experiences they have had.

4: The crew escaped only because they did an incredibly risky blind jump that culd have killed all of them. Many may feel they are living on borrowed time. That will tend to make one fatalistic.

Fatalisitic or not, it doesn't excuse rape. It might explain suicide, or agression, but not rape.

But it does show why they are unable to see that 6-Gina is alive and sentient. Again, to them, they haven't hurt a living person. They are beating on a machine.

5: 6-Gina entered BSP and what did they get? 800 dead. That is reason enough for revenege. All straight male crew members of Pegasus could "find some relief" if they wanted it. I'm sure that any lesbian crewmembers could have "had some fun too" if they wanted.

We don't know when Gina entered BSP. The 700 dead were from the inital attack.

Maybe. But I seem to remember that 6-Gina killed more than a few of the crew before they captured her.

6: BSP had no counter weight to the military way as BSG did. The crew of BSG may have been a lot different if the rest of the civilian fleet wasn't around.

I refute this again. I think it has to do with the leadership. Adama would not have let his ship become the BSP and he would have led by example.

Adama was going to do a suicide run on the Cylon fleet before he listened to Roslyn's words. Adama may not have had his crew rape the Sharon they had on board (can't ever see that happening) but he was going to do some pretty foolish things, IMHO.

Cain's example is what created the BSP.

No. I think it was a combination of many things that led the BSP down that path. It wasn't Cain alone, it wasn't the destruction of the fleet alone, it wasn't that they didn't have a civilian fleet to take care of and protect. It was many things that cascaded into them taking what is the "wrong turns".

7: I doubt that Cain became Adm. B***H all at once as well as a tyrant. She may have been a tough officer to start with, but nothing more. She went completely off her compass as I think she believes they, the crew of the PSG, were all going to die at sometime so she needed to keep things as tight as possible.

That still doesn't excuse or even explain, rape and murder.

Rape: Rape who? Again 6-Gina is a machine to them. What reason would they think otherwise?

Murder? Cain's former XO? Disobeying a legal, if dangerous, order is a courts-martial offense in any military I am aware of, including the French. I am not fond of Cain's choice but we really don't have all the facts now do we? If what the current XO said was the way it went down, I know lawyers who can argue both ways, legal and justified or illegal and barbarous, to the cows come home.

Again, we're able to see much more and we can discuss this ad nauseum. Cain made a snap decision (again I don't think it was the right one) but I wasn't there facing an extreme combat situation.

8: Another thing, in the Episode previous, 209 "Flight of the Pheonix", everyone was cheering when Helo's Sharon helped BSG slaughter the Cylon raiders. Yet so many feel sorry for Boomer and 6-Gina. Something to keep in mind.

I'm confused as to your point here

From here=>

Both acts were atrocities and to say otherwise seems hypocritical. What happened to the Cylons could be called a massacre without ambiguity. We don't usually celebrate massacres any more that we do great ambushes, terrific ethnic cleansings, or efficient genocides, not to mention rape or torture.

They state it very well. What happened to the Cylons was not a gret combat victory, it was a slaughter.

9:They needed to extract information out of 6-Gina. I will defend that statement. To get the information out of 6-Gina would have been tough. How that was to be accomplished is anyone's guess, but it needed to be done.

Information is extracted using torture, not rape. She was raped to humiliate and break her. No other reason.

Not always. If you can break a person, or machine in their mind, you can get lots of information from them.

Part 3:

One thing that many may have forgotten is what happened in Episode 209. In the "Flight of the Pheonix", Galactica wiped out whole squadrons of Cylon raiders and everyone was pretty excited about that, right? I would think that is how the Pegasus crew felt when 6-Gina broke. They didn't think about the consequences, only that "they won".

The difference is, those cylons were coming to kill them. Sure they had been disabled, but the BSG was in the same situation just moments before.

But as anotherquestion stated, those Cylons were completely helpless.

Those raiders they destroyed were battlefield kills, not cold blooded murder.

Read anotherquestion's post again.

So, I agree that it was rape on 6-Gina.

I agree it was wrong to do so, KNOWING WHAT I KNOW

I don't agree that the crew of the Pegasus is guilty of rape as you do.

I am doing my best to see what was going on through their eyes.

[LCD2YOU]

What should happen to the Pegasus crew?

[DOIKECARTER]

You cant say that, all we know is that they escaped and tracked a Cylon fleet, they could have been through worse

But I think the fleet was the main balancer that prevented the Galactica from becomming the Pegasus, since they had something to fight for, while Pegasus thought they were alone so basically said "screw it, Im taking as much Cylons down with me as I can and doing whatever the heck I want" That is why Cain doesnt even care about the fleet.

Civilians ....and The President Colonies sharing the power and the responsibility. Even the presence of SHARON, her being one the the crew...she has put a face on the enemy, a face they know.

[LoneStar1836]

The problem here is that it is one thing to argue that Gina resembles a human being enough to make the case that the Pegasus crew committed rape in the full sense of the word but, at the same time, ignore the fact that the Gallactica pilots wiped out the Cylon fleet, perhaps containing dozens, or perhaps hundreds of "Gina" models on the large raiders, not to mention the thousands of other Cylon models, and they get a "free pass".

A big part of the repugnance of rape is that it is an assault on someone else who is unable to defend themselves. This is exactly the state of the Cylon fleet after the broadcast of the Cylon "anti-virus-virus". After the broadcast BSG was not "in the same situation" at all. You can dress up the "fight" by calling the destruction "battlefield kills" but they certainly weren't killed in battle. It was more like a mass execution of helpless prisoners.

I'm not defending the repeated rape or torture of Gina by the Pegasus crew. I'm just not holding the Gallactica crew in much higher esteem. Both acts were atrocities and to say otherwise seems hypocritical.

Guess I’m a hypocrite then because I don’t consider what Galatica’s pilots did to the disabled Cylon ships an atrocity. It was a preventative measure. Now that probably wasn’t the Viper pilots’ first thoughts when they began shooting them. Payback was probably on their minds, but from a tactical perspective, I don’t think it would be wise to just leave the enemy intact and fly away.

When countries have had outbreaks of avian flu among birds, they cull possibly exposed birds (which are probably not sick) and destroy them as a preventative measure to stop the spread of the disease and protect the human population.

“Since 1997, when the first human cases of bird flu appeared, hundreds of millions of sick or exposed birds — primarily chickens — have been destroyed. In many cases, affected farms were also quarantined. Although some have questioned the wisdom of such wholesale slaughter as well as the methods used to cull birds — many are burned or buried alive — the World Health Organization considers this approach the first-line defense against avian viruses.” ~ from a CNN news article.

Destroying the disabled Cylon ships is a means to prevent those ships from being used to kill you in the future. If they had just left them as is and Galactica and the fleet had jumped away, who is to say that the Cylons wouldn’t have sent a Basestar to collect them and repair them to fight another day.

DeadBoomer herself suggested you treat the Raiders like a pet. So if that was some Cylon mentality seeping through into her subconscious, then it possibly suggests that that is how the human Cylons view the Raiders – as animals, to be bred/programmed/trained to perform certain tasks.

I’m not sure if the heavy raiders have a biological component or not since they seem to be piloted manually, but if they did, I’d classify them as “animals” as well.

Personally, I don’t see the destruction of fowl for the purpose of stopping the spread of a deadly illness as an atrocity. Others may but I don’t. Regrettable, yes, but a necessary evil. So I don’t view the destruction of Cylon Raiders to prevent them from being used in further attacks as an atrocity either because they are presumably more animal-like (going by Boomer’s words) than they are human-like. So the destruction of both is a preventative measure in my eyes.

The inclusion of human Cylons on the heavy raiders is pure speculation. The possibility exists, but I doubt any were present. Why would they come along as part of a boarding party when they are easily killed unlike the Centurians?

The heavy Raiders more than likely had Centurians aboard. Obviously they aren’t as advanced as the human Cylons, but they still seem to be thinking entities since I’m assuming they were the ones that rebelled against the humans, resulting in the first Cylon war. So I wouldn’t exactly classify them purely as programmed machines void of free thought, but I’m still not going to grant them equal status as a human being. Besides how do you take them prisoner without being killed in the process? They won’t be taken as prisoners or at least haven’t exhibited the desire to be taken prisoner instead of being destroyed. So far they have been willing to only fight to the death and not surrender. I’m not going to be the first one in line to get shot when you jimmy the heavy raider’s door open in an attempt to take them prisoner.

Plus I still haven’t dismissed the theory that the attack was a ruse orchestrated to allow Sharon the opportunity to save the fleet thus gaining more credibility in the process. The Cylons had to have known what would happen to the ships and their crews once Sharon disabled them. They basically sent them to die for the “cause” if it was a ruse.

Perhaps the smallest example of this bias is the fact that many viewers were likely persuaded to regard the practice of "keeping scorecards" on the sides of Vipers as distasteful practice simply because Starbuck voiced her low opinion about it.

I didn’t care for that remark by Starbuck. I’m not sure what the writer’s motivations were for trying to cast a possible bad light on keeping score with tallies on your fighter. Now keeping score by cutting off an ear would be a different matter….

What should happen to the Pegasus crew?

If the ship survives, then the crew of the Pegasus should be embraced, minus Cain who is hopefully dead by the hand of her XO or another crew member. I don’t think they are all reprehensible scum like Thorne. Though it would be nice if they could weed out the ones that participated in the raping (like "Yee-ha!" boy) and make them scrub toilets for the rest of their existence when they aren't in the brig.

They didn’t utilize Sebastian Spence much in this episode who played Whiplash, the pilot Starbuck was snipping at about keeping score. I’m guessing he’ll have more to do in the next episode since he's not a total nobody actor. Arrogance must be his specialty since he played a Tok’ra on SG-1. But I don’t think he’s a bad guy and neither is the CAG who told Lee off with the daddy’s boy comment. Course I don't like them since they aren't part of my ship, but it doesn't mean they're bad people. The CAG seems to be competent at his job, and Lee could probably learn a thing or two from him (b/c if Cain dies, he'll most likely go back to being Galactica's CAG) if they both can look past the rivalry between the two ships' crews.

I'm not ready to airlock everyone on Pegasus just yet.

[Blue Banrigh]

I didn't know they gave Sebastian Spence's character a name/call sign. *Hopes he hangs around*

[Lightsabre]

The problem here is that it is one thing to argue that Gina resembles a human being enough to make the case that the Pegasus crew committed rape in the full sense of the word but, at the same time, ignore the fact that the Gallactica pilots wiped out the Cylon fleet, perhaps containing dozens, or perhaps hundreds of "Gina" models on the large raiders, not to mention the thousands of other Cylon models, and they get a "free pass".

A big part of the repugnance of rape is that it is an assault on someone else who is unable to defend themselves. This is exactly the state of the Cylon fleet after the broadcast of the Cylon "anti-virus-virus". After the broadcast BSG was not "in the same situation" at all. You can dress up the "fight" by calling the destruction "battlefield kills" but they certainly weren't killed in battle. It was more like a mass execution of helpless prisoners.

I'm not defending the repeated rape or torture of Gina by the Pegasus crew. I'm just not holding the Gallactica crew in much higher esteem. Both acts were atrocities and to say otherwise seems hypocritical. What happened to the Cylons could be called a massacre without ambiguity. We don't usually celebrate massacres any more that we do great ambushes, terrific ethnic cleansings, or efficient genocides, not to mention rape or torture.

It's the power of the writing in this series, which forges for the viewers a close identification with and sympathy for the BSG crew, that we forget the niceities of moral distinction and, after seeing the behavior of a handful of crewmen, are ready to write off the entire complement of the Pegasus.

Perhaps the smallest example of this bias is the fact that many viewers were likely persuaded to regard the practice of "keeping scorecards" on the sides of Vipers as distasteful practice simply because Starbuck voiced her low opinion about it. This practice has been a time-honored tradition for all the air services (on every side) of historical conficts. After all, you can't tell your Ace combat pilots without a scorecard. On the face of it, it doesn't seem barbaric or even foolishly boastful. It does, in fact, seem to be simply a means of increasing morale and instilling a sense of competition among the fighter pilots, just as the unpleasant CAG explained to Apollo. Just because the CAG was a jerk, doesn't make the practice reprehensible.

I see your point here, but I have a somewhat different view.
First off, the cylons were the agressors. They couldn't have been slaughtered if tehy hadn't been attacking the Galactica.
Second, we have no way of knowing how long Boomers virus would keep them out.
THe Galactica pilots who were out there could have suddenly been in the middle of a cloud of re-activated Raiders.
I think the main difference between that and the rape of Gina was that the Raiders were the agressors. And they were killed, simply and cleanly. It was battlefield conditions, not cold blooded pre-mediated murder.
IF I'm a foot soldier and the enemy trips and I bayonet him, it's a battlefield kill.
Whether or not he could fight back is irrelevant. He was killed on the battlefield.
If I take him prisioner and bayonet him one day, that is murder.
And that is the difference here. At least, imho.

[Lightsabre]

I have always said that what happened to 6-Gina was wrong, but when taken from the perspective and knowledge that the crew of the Pegasus had, it takes on a different light.Two completely different scenarios there my friend. First Callie is (or we really suspect she is) human. 6-Gina, from the perspective of the Pegasus crew is a robot with skin.

I guess this is where we disagree. I can see how they could maintain that she was nothing but a robot, but after seeing what the rape did to her, I find it hard to believe they could cling to that. Instead, to me, it says that some of the Pegasus crew simply enjoyed rape.

To them, "IT", 6-Gina, is nothing more to them than a nuke in a nice dress. "IT" is a machine with no rights, no feelings, nothing. To them, the only reason "IT" broke was because ITs programming couldn't handle it.Read what I said again. I know it was wrong, you know it was wrong but we are not the Pegasus crew. We, as omniscient viewers are on the outside looking in. We have seen the issues that some of the other Cylons have had with what is going on. The crew of the Pegasus doesn't have that niceity.

Again, I disagree. The dehumanising of enemies has been employed by various nasties in the world and they are routinely condemed for it.
Remember the holocost? It's ok to kill the Jews, they are sub human.
Same with the blacks in America during slavery.
It's the same thing here. Saying that 'she's just a robot' is merely a convienient fiction to allow them to continue to do it.

We, and to a very limited extent the crew of BSG, have had the Sharon model. We watched her struggle with her dual nature. We've seen the Caprica 6 almost lose it as she wants to know real love. We've even come to understand that not all of the Cylons approve of what is going on.

Thus underscoring, for me, their humanity. They are like children who've been indoctrinated and now they are trying to deal with 'adolesence'. trying to reconcile what they've been told with how they feel and act.

The crew of the Pegasus have known nothing but death from the Cylons. To them, they are nothing but killing machines without feelings and they are not alive, even if they bleed.Again you're projecting your beliefs on to others. To the crew of the Pegasus, IT is not a woman. IT is a blow up doll, a robot with skin. That is what you fail to see here. You can't or won't see things their point of view from the experiences they have had.But it does show why they are unable to see that 6-Gina is alive and sentient. Again, to them, they haven't hurt a living person. They are beating on a machine.Maybe. But I seem to remember that 6-Gina killed more than a few of the crew before they captured her.Adama was going to do a suicide run on the Cylon fleet before he listened to Roslyn's words. Adama may not have had his crew rape the Sharon they had on board (can't ever see that happening) but he was going to do some pretty foolish things, IMHO.No. I think it was a combination of many things that led the BSP down that path. It wasn't Cain alone, it wasn't the destruction of the fleet alone, it wasn't that they didn't have a civilian fleet to take care of and protect. It was many things that cascaded into them taking what is the "wrong turns".Rape: Rape who? Again 6-Gina is a machine to them. What reason would they think otherwise?

I see it, I just don't agree. As I said above, it's simply a convient fiction.
Robot's don't get brutalised when you attack or rape them. Gina is not a robot with a skin, she's a fully functional human(Or how did she get raped??).
THat means she has the hormones and what not a human does and that means that she felt every second of that rape. And I cannot believe that teh Pegasus crew could see that and still think she's a machine.
You don't get turned on by a machine. You don't think 'impure thoughts' about a machine. You don't reminise with your friends abotu sex with a machine. On BSG, they expressed disgust at the thought of sleeping with a cylon. Notice none of the male BSG crew thought it would be good to have a shot at Sharon? No, they thought sleeping with a machine was disgusting.
So, Gina was human enough to them that they found her attractive.
Oh and Gina killed 7 people. That's a shame. but they are at war. As far as I know, rape is not a punishment for murder. And if you kill people in a war, kill soldiers, it's not murder.

Murder? Cain's former XO? Disobeying a legal, if dangerous, order is a courts-martial offense in any military I am aware of, including the French. I am not fond of Cain's choice but we really don't have all the facts now do we? If what the current XO said was the way it went down, I know lawyers who can argue both ways, legal and justified or illegal and barbarous, to the cows come home.

Ah, but was he disobeying an order? Attacking an overwhelming force will do nothing but get your ship destroyed and crew killed.
In that case, a commander giving the order to attack would be insane and that would mean they should be relieved of command.
But her XO did not mutiny. He refused to give an order. Cain could have demoted, arrested, reprimmanded. Instead, she shot him.
Why? Cause there was no one to call her to account.
THat is called tyranny.

I agree it was wrong to do so, KNOWING WHAT I KNOW

I don't agree that the crew of the Pegasus is guilty of rape as you do.

I am doing my best to see what was going on through their eyes.

I've applied that filter, but I just cannot accept it as you seem to.
Rape is rape and it is wrong. As I siad before, we made it a crime to have sex with animals. If you maintain Gina is not human, but is alive, then she must be an animal. So, it's still a crime to have sex with her.
All of these arguments are just excuses tho. Gina looked and acted like a human woman. They were raping something that felt and acted like a human woman. FOr all intents and purposes,. they raped a woman.
Saying they saw her as a toaster is also disingenious, as you don't get turned on by a toaster. SHe was human enough for them to get it up.

[anotherquestion]

Guess I’m a hypocrite then because I don’t consider what Galatica’s pilots did to the disabled Cylon ships an atrocity. It was a preventative measure. Now that probably wasn’t the Viper pilots’ first thoughts when they began shooting them. Payback was probably on their minds, but from a tactical perspective, I don’t think it would be wise to just leave the enemy intact and fly away.

I've no wish to keep adding fuel to the fire on this point, but I'd like to respectfully suggest that this line of thinking was similar, if not identical, to the justification that the Cylons have employed for their attacks on the Colonies, and for their continued pursuit of the fleet.

They have suggested that humanity is irredeemably flawed and must be eradicated for the Cylons' own self-preservation. Every human is a potential instance of an "intact enemy". Innocence or helplessness has no place in this frame of reference. It's similar to the thinking behind "pre-emptive" strikes that is a formal cover for "get them before they have a chance to get you", which might have some slight merit if there were trustworthy intelligence to support it.

[LCD2YOU]

I guess this is where we disagree. I can see how they could maintain that she was nothing but a robot, but after seeing what the rape did to her, I find it hard to believe they could cling to that. Instead, to me, it says that some of the Pegasus crew simply enjoyed rape.

I'd never doubt that some of the Pegasus crew enjoyed having sex with a blow-up doll. Especially if that blow-up doll's kind is responsible for the alomst total annihilation of your species and your civilization. Remeber, rape is not about sex so much, but about power. What a better way to express one's power over a foe that almost destroyed you by treating it badly?

As for what the abuse did to "IT", so what would be the first thing that comes to mind. When you abuse a machine they do have a tendency to break down. As I have stated before, so what if the harddrive "IT" calls a brain gave a "Blue screen of death"? It is obvious that "ITs" programming is not able to handle it. It is still a machine in the eyes of the Pegasus crew.

Again, I disagree. The dehumanising of enemies has been employed by various nasties in the world and they are routinely condemed for it.

See, yet again you're refering to "IT", 6-Gina, as a human. and claiming that the Pegasus crew is "dehumanizing the enemy". Cylons are not human, even the humaniod models. To dehumanize something they must first be recognized as humans. They aren't human to begin with so how can they be dehumanized?

Remember the holocost? It's ok to kill the Jews, they are sub human.

I will refrain from calling upon the rule that states once a person invokes a certain Austrian dictator or their unsavory actions to show their arguemnet is lost for now. Get a bettre arguement.

Same with the blacks in America during slavery.

Big problem here with your arguement. The Cylon humaniod models come from robotic stock. Last time I checked, both Jews and dark skinned Africans had always come from human stock.

The crew of the Pegasus had never seen a humaniod Cylon before and the impression they were left with from the Cylons was they weren't human at all.

It's the same thing here. Saying that 'she's just a robot' is merely a convienient fiction to allow them to continue to do it.

"IT" is a robot to the Pegasus crew. I know and you know differently as I have said before, we are semi-omniscient viewers from the outside looking in. The crew of the Pegasus has no such view of the situation. Besides, this is a war of genocide.

Thus underscoring, for me, their humanity. They are like children who've been indoctrinated and now they are trying to deal with 'adolesence'. trying to reconcile what they've been told with how they feel and act.

No it underscaores their experiences. Many of the crew of Galactica called Sharon a friend. They have had different interactions with humaniod Cylons. You are confusing experience with basic humanity.

I see it, I just don't agree. As I said above, it's simply a convient fiction. Robot's don't get brutalised when you attack or rape them. Gina is not a robot with a skin, she's a fully functional human(Or how did she get raped??).

And you know this how? What is to say that it is not what I stated, namely that "ITs" programming wasn't designed to handle the interactions it went through? "ITs" logic centers are basically in a "divide by zero" mode which is causing a logic loop that comes across as being in a catatonic state.

As for why is "IT" a fully functioning female REPLICA, that is simple. If I am going to place sleeper agents into an enemies camp, you will be assured that they will pass as one. So "IT" has all the features of a female and without an autopsy, I would assume the brain is vastly different, you couldn't tell.

THat means she has the hormones and what not a human does and that means that she felt every second of that rape.

You don't know that for sure and neither does the crew of the Pegasus know that at all. Granted the crew of the Pegasus wouldn't even suspect that to be even close to the truth so they wouldn't even bother checking. Again, the whole issue with the broken machine that calls itself Gina could be faulty programming.

And I cannot believe that teh Pegasus crew could see that and still think she's a machine.

Why would they think otherwise when there are perfectly valid explainations, that you don't agree with them makes them none the less valid, to describe "ITs" current state?

You don't get turned on by a machine. You don't think 'impure thoughts' about a machine.

BS, not when it looks like that. Besides, there are many computer generated games, like the X-Rated version of that car theft game, that seems to have "turned on" a few people. Get a better arguement.

You don't reminise with your friends abotu sex with a machine. On BSG, they expressed disgust at the thought of sleeping with a cylon. Notice none of the male BSG crew thought it would be good to have a shot at Sharon? No, they thought sleeping with a machine was disgusting.

There are several reasons for this. Namely it is due to them remembering Sharon as Sharon the Colonial Raptor pilot, not Sharon, the Cylon.

So, Gina was human enough to them that they found her attractive.

And so?

Oh and Gina killed 7 people. That's a shame. but they are at war. As far as I know, rape is not a punishment for murder. And if you kill people in a war, kill soldiers, it's not murder.

Technically Gina would be a spy. You have no idea do you about what they really do to spies?

Ah, but was he disobeying an order? Attacking an overwhelming force will do nothing but get your ship destroyed and crew killed.

I don't know the whole story behind the killing of the original XO of the Pegasus. Attacking a superior force is a common military tactic if you have, or think you have, surprise or a way to hit them hard. Galactica attacked a superior force getting the Tylium from the Cylons in the first season so you can't play that card without condemning the Galactica as well. Even Tigh said that this wasn't the time to attack a superior force.

In that case, a commander giving the order to attack would be insane and that would mean they should be relieved of command.

Like Adama when he ordered the attack on the Cylon Tylium facility?

But her XO did not mutiny. He refused to give an order. Cain could have demoted, arrested, reprimmanded. Instead, she shot him.

Hey, if that is correct then she is wrong and the XO is dead. She should be given a courts martial if that is the case. What I am saying is we just don't know everything. Personally, I think she was wrong, I think she's nothing but trouble and the first opportunity to relieve her of her command is the best thing that could happen. If she is guilty of murder, air lock her ass.

Why? Cause there was no one to call her to account.
That is called tyranny.

Yes and no. That is called chain of command. The military is not a democracy. When the CO gives an order, you do it. Most of the time the grunts in the field just don't have enough info to make a decision if it is a legal order or not. That is until they come across a building filled with wounded and then told to burn it down. But I think she was wrong on almost all counts. Her need to have a marine security detachment is a testament to that.

You see we really don't have many issues with her command style, you think she sticks and I think she's does as well.

I've applied that filter, but I just cannot accept it as you seem to. Rape is rape and it is wrong. As I siad before, we made it a crime to have sex with animals. If you maintain Gina is not human, but is alive, then she must be an animal. So, it's still a crime to have sex with her.

Your chain of logic is spurious at best. Right there it shows me you have done no such thing as put on filters as the crew of the Pegasus would have seen it. She is not an animal to the crew of the Pegasus, she is a Cylon. The skin is alive but the harddrive used as a brain is just a machine. You have provided nothing in the way that could have changed the minds of the crew of the Pegasus to think anything differenty. that she looks human? The Cylons can grow skin in a test tube. The Cylons would be no more human that a "Terminator" robot from the series of movies.

All of these arguments are just excuses tho. Gina looked and acted like a human woman. They were raping something that felt and acted like a human woman. FOr all intents and purposes,. they raped a woman.

To us yes, to the crew of the Pegasus, no.

Saying they saw her as a toaster is also disingenious, as you don't get turned on by a toaster. SHe was human enough for them to get it up.

So she's a toaster that looks good and has the right equipment? Her mind is still a harddrive, she's still a Cylon. Cylon's aren't human.

[Lightsabre]

I'd never doubt that some of the Pegasus crew enjoyed having sex with a blow-up doll. Especially if that blow-up doll's kind is responsible for the alomst total annihilation of your species and your civilization. Remeber, rape is not about sex so much, but about power. What a better way to express one's power over a foe that almost destroyed you by treating it badly?

I could see that if they beat her. Mutiliated her. I would still think it was wrong and sick, but I could see it. But you don't want to have sex with a foe that almost destroyed you.
THat doesn't arouse you, or it shouldn't.
Basically, for them to have sex with Gina, they had to see her as human, or close to it. Some people enjoy blow up dolls, but there is a difference between something that is CLEARLY fake and something that looks, acts and feels real.

As for what the abuse did to "IT", so what would be the first thing that comes to mind. When you abuse a machine they do have a tendency to break down. As I have stated before, so what if the harddrive "IT" calls a brain gave a "Blue screen of death"? It is obvious that "ITs" programming is not able to handle it. It is still a machine in the eyes of the Pegasus crew.

If I abuse a machine in a way that causes damage, yes. But Gina hard drive is not in her genitals, it's in her head. Rape would be unlikely to send her catatonic if she was just a machine as you claim.
A spy muist be programmed to deal with sex. It's unlikely rape would be left out. What good is my spy if it falls about at treatment like that.
All of this, tho, ignores the fact that we know the cylons are not simply pre-programmed 'Terminator' like machines.

See, yet again you're refering to "IT", 6-Gina, as a human. and claiming that the Pegasus crew is "dehumanizing the enemy". Cylons are not human, even the humaniod models. To dehumanize something they must first be recognized as humans. They aren't human to begin with so how can they be dehumanized?I will refrain from calling upon the rule that states once a person invokes a certain Austrian dictator or their unsavory actions to show their arguemnet is lost for now. Get a bettre arguement.Big problem here with your arguement. The Cylon humaniod models come from robotic stock. Last time I checked, both Jews and dark skinned Africans had always come from human stock.

Ok, here, stop telling me to get a better agument. THAT is simply you saying you cannot refute it, so you will attempt to marginalise it.
Also, I understand that Hitler has been overused, but I did not either a)Hang my entire argument on it or
b)mention him, the nazi party or germany. I used the thought process behind the holocaust and I think it's relevent.
Cylons, live, love, they have personalities. They aren't humans as we define the species, but they have humanity. But 'dehumanising' simply means to strip human qualities and values from someone, to allow you to do this.
In the same way, I could justify(using your logic) burning a dog to death.
It's not human, it doesn't feel pain the same way. Sure it's running around screaming, but that's just an act.

The crew of the Pegasus had never seen a humaniod Cylon before and the impression they were left with from the Cylons was they weren't human at all."IT" is a robot to the Pegasus crew.

And as I said before, initailly, that might suffice, but I can't believe they could CONTINUE to have that belief.

No it underscaores their experiences. Many of the crew of Galactica called Sharon a friend. They have had different interactions with humaniod Cylons.

Really, so in teh ep where KAt calls Helo disgusting for sleeping with a cylon, that's cause they thought of her as a friend.
When someone asks him 'how can you do it"? that's cause he knew Sharon before it came out she was a cylon?
No, it's cause they find the idea of being with a cylon sickening.
ANd for exactly the reasons you outline above. They are sickened by the idea of sex with a machine.
Before, had you asked the men if they wanted to have sex with Sharon, they would probably have said yes.
That's my point. To rape Gina, to see her as desirable, they would have to see her as human or close to it.

You are confusing experience with basic humanity.

No I'm not.

And you know this how? What is to say that it is not what I stated, namely that "ITs" programming wasn't designed to handle the interactions it went through? "ITs" logic centers are basically in a "divide by zero" mode which is causing a logic loop that comes across as being in a catatonic state.

Interesting. YOu know this how?

As for why is "IT" a fully functioning female REPLICA, that is simple. If I am going to place sleeper agents into an enemies camp, you will be assured that they will pass as one. So "IT" has all the features of a female and without an autopsy, I would assume the brain is vastly different, you couldn't tell.

Maybe, maybe not. THe fact is, she looks, thinks and acts human.
Yet, it's ok to rape her cause she's a machine.
So, if someone accuses Cally of being a cylon, it's ok to rape her?

You don't know that for sure and neither does the crew of the Pegasus know that at all. Granted the crew of the Pegasus wouldn't even suspect that to be even close to the truth so they wouldn't even bother checking. Again, the whole issue with the broken machine that calls itself Gina could be faulty programming.Why would they think otherwise when there are perfectly valid explainations, that you don't agree with them makes them none the less valid, to describe "ITs" current state?

Faulty programming? BS.
Not when she responds to Baltar's overtures. SHe is nto simply a program, she has a MIND of her own. Full AI. She can make decisions and rational choices like a human.
And, like a human, that mind was brutalised by rape.
Case in point, if the cylons or at least the humans versions,weren't AI, how could Sharon have turned against them?

BS, not when it looks like that. Besides, there are many computer generated games, like the X-Rated version of that car theft game, that seems to have "turned on" a few people.

Yes, btu they were turned on by pictures of actual women. None of them attempted sex with the computer tower.

Get a better arguement.

Continually saying this is both pointless and insulting.
IT also illustrates that you cannot argue your point without attempt to demean mine, which means you cannot refute it.

I don't know the whole story behind the killing of the original XO of the Pegasus. Attacking a superior force is a common military tactic if you have, or think you have, surprise or a way to hit them hard.

It's simple, they went to hit the cylons, there were more there than they thought.
I did not say a superior force, I said overwhelming.

Galactica attacked a superior force getting the Tylium from the Cylons in the first season so you can't play that card without condemning the Galactica as well.

Sometimes you have to attack a superior force. Which is why I used the word overwhelming.
I'm not condeming Galactica, it NEEDED the fuel. Pegasus didn't.

Even Tigh said that this wasn't the time to attack a superior force.Like Adama when he ordered the attack on the Cylon Tylium facility?Hey, if that is correct then she is wrong and the XO is dead. She should be given a courts martial if that is the case. What I am saying is we just don't know everything.

Well in that case, we shold all shut up. We will NEVER know everything. I formulate opinions and theories based on what I do know.
ANd everything I know tells me that Cain did not need to shoot her XO.

Personally, I think she was wrong, I think she's nothing but trouble and the first opportunity to relieve her of her command is the best thing that could happen. If she is guilty of murder, air lock her ass.

But she has to be tried first. Since she controls the ships logs, what evidence is there to convict her?

Yes and no. That is called chain of command. The military is not a democracy. When the CO gives an order, you do it. Most of the time the grunts in the field just don't have enough info to make a decision if it is a legal order or not. That is until they come across a building filled with wounded and then told to burn it down. But I think she was wrong on almost all counts. Her need to have a marine security detachment is a testament to that.

YOu cannot hide behind that. We also have provisions taht soldiers do not have to obey orders taht are morally wrong. Like, oh if I ordered them to rape a POW.
In that case, we expect the soldier to refuse to obey and in some cases, to relieve their CO of command.
Regardless, if a soldier refuses an order, you cannot summarily shoot them. IF Cain had even held a kangaroo court, she would have more legitimacy than she did by jsut shooting him.

Right there it shows me you have done no such thing as put on filters as the crew of the Pegasus would have seen it. She is not an animal to the crew of the Pegasus, she is a Cylon. The skin is alive but the harddrive used as a brain is just a machine. You have provided nothing in the way that could have changed the minds of the crew of the Pegasus to think anything differenty. that she looks human? The Cylons can grow skin in a test tube. The Cylons would be no more human that a "Terminator" robot from the series of movies.To us yes, to the crew of the Pegasus, no.So she's a toaster that looks good and has the right equipment? Her mind is still a harddrive, she's still a Cylon. Cylon's aren't human.

And right there, you still aren't understanding my argument.
I can see, when she was first captured, them seeing her as a machine. I just cannot see that belief persisting over time and the damage the rapes had done to her.