Crossroads, Part 1 (319)

[Lady Snow]

Am I the only one that cheered when Dee packed her bags & left?

Abso-frakking-lutely not. I've been watching the episode over and over since Sunday, and that's one of two scenes I always watch intently.

Also, I am confused about Anders... he is in uniform?! What is he doing for work? He is obviouslly not allowed to just hang out and look cool, so what is he doing to earn his cushy spot on Galactica?

He's a nugget, picking up where the old lady left off.

[BubblingOverWithIdeas]

Spoiler, shmoiler. What the frack is going on with Lee? And what sort of court allows a pilot to play lawyer. Puhleez! This trial is ridiculous. Not high drama. Just low-down nonsense.

Different society, and it's a trial by tribunal instead of a jury of Baltar's peers.

Ditto with the radio fiddling. The bar scene where Roslin’s chief of staff was fiddling with that red radio was a dead giveaway. And yes, the old cliché of radio signals from Earth traveling to deep space announcing, "We are here." Has been used ad nauseum as a plot trick. The best use, IMO, was in Carl Sagan's book and that abyssmal movie verison of it, "Contact". At least Dr. Sagan got the physics right. He used the very first TV broadcast signal of Hitler at the Olympics as the signal. Makes sense since broadcast wave don't warp time-space. FIFO, first in, first out.

So, if the Colonial fleet is picking up stray Earthly broadcasts, they would be seeing them as through a time machine, same way Hubble views back to the origins of the Universe. And, some crappy little radio would not be the receive. Neither would random individuals of the hull of Galactica. The energy loss as signals travel through a planetary atmosphere then out to space is significant. Add to that the influence of interstellar radiation, gravitational and other astronomical phenomena, and it would take a very sophisticated listening post to pick them up.

Spoiler:

It's not a radio signal from Earth. If you want to know what it is, go to the thread with Massive Spoilers in the title.

Also, I am confused about Anders... he is in uniform?! What is he doing for work? He is obviouslly not allowed to just hang out and look cool, so what is he doing to earn his cushy spot on Galactica?

As Lady Snow said, he's a nugget. A pilot in training, like Seelix. Kat and Hotdog were nuggets in Act of Contrition.

[Marauder359]

The more I see of Roslin the less I like her. That doesn't mean I don't think that the actress isn't very good, quite the contrary in fact, but I don't like the sneaky, underhanded way Roslin has of doing things and think she is, at best, a complete hypocrite. A "Do as I say & not as I do" sort of person.

Well, Lampkin was absolutely on the ball when he suggested that humanity should've been tickled pink that Baltar was President when the Cylons showed up on New Caprica. Wasn't he? Who would you have preferred?

Now, certainly, were it up to Roslin they would've never settled on New Caprica. Nevertheless, his point is true, and that speaks in many ways toward her radicalism.

At the same time, she is merely doing what she feels is right.

[ShadowMaat]

When they put Baltar on the stand do you think they'll get around to mentioning the fact that he had a gun held to his head when he signed those execution orders? I was annoyed they didn't mention it earlier, but realistically since Baltar wasn't on the stand it wouldn't have made any sense to mention it. Seems like a pretty big point in his favor: either he signed the execution orders and lived or they killed him and someone else signed the orders.

Where is Romo supposed to be from, anyway? He doesn't sound Caprican, although I suppose there could be a plethora of Caprican accents, just as with any other planet (except possibly the really tiny ones).

[Berg417448]

When they put Baltar on the stand do you think they'll get around to mentioning the fact that he had a gun held to his head when he signed those execution orders? I was annoyed they didn't mention it earlier, but realistically since Baltar wasn't on the stand it wouldn't have made any sense to mention it. Seems like a pretty big point in his favor: either he signed the execution orders and lived or they killed him and someone else signed the orders.

Spoiler:

This subject is going to come up...but with a twist you might not expect.

[BubblingOverWithIdeas]

Romo could be Aerelon. I don't know.

Spoiler:

Gaeta will lie and say that Baltar signed the papers without any qualms and that he was there. In reality, as we know, Baltar initially refused, signing the order only under threat of death, and was the only human present.

[Marauder359]

Spoiler:

I don't think that's true, is it? Wasn't Gaeta there? I think he was in the corner of Colonial One when they force Baltar to sign. I think he was there and he's outright going to commit perjury.

[Huginn]

Spoiler, shmoiler. What the frack is going on with Lee? And what sort of court allows a pilot to play lawyer. Puhleez! This trial is ridiculous. Not high drama. Just low-down nonsense.

Though some courts will only allow members of the bar to argue before them, I think we can say that in this situation, no such restriction would be present. The only thing keeping any average Joe from walking up to defend Baltar is...Baltar. And given the context of the situation, you can see why Lampkin would want Lee to argue it.

For starters, in any democracy worth it's stripes, the health of the CINC (Commander-in-chief) is a state secret. Adama was in his rights to censor Roslin's testimony in the interests of natinal security. As a former journalist covering heads of state, I have first hand knowledge of this. Frankly, it would have been better, more dramatic, to handle Roslin's cancer metastasis sub rosa. Then we have another mystery within and cover-up. Oooh! Cool.

Remember that there are no other states in this situation; there's no one around to take advantage (other than the Cylons). If the public is the concern, remember that Roslin did cover up her cancer up until it became unbearable in season 1, but this situation was different. Adama could not have stopped the other judges from forcing the cross to continue, not without bringing them in on it. And even if they had stopped cross right then and there, the answer was pretty obvious. There's only one reason to take chamala if you're not an oracle.

The minute Lee sniffed the tea, the Kamala Kat was out of the bag. C'mon. writers, try to be a little subtle. Not so obvious, please.

Obvious to you, yes. Obvious to everyone? Not so. There were a couple things (admittedly, not many) that could have been in the tea. An attempt on Roslin's life, with Baltar gaining "followers" already, wouldn't have been out of the question.

Ditto with the radio fiddling. The bar scene where Roslin’s chief of staff was fiddling with that red radio was a dead giveaway. And yes, the old cliché of radio signals from Earth traveling to deep space announcing, "We are here." Has been used ad nauseum as a plot trick. The best use, IMO, was in Carl Sagan's book and that abyssmal movie verison of it, "Contact". At least Dr. Sagan got the physics right. He used the very first TV broadcast signal of Hitler at the Olympics as the signal. Makes sense since broadcast wave don't warp time-space. FIFO, first in, first out.

If this were a real radio signal, you'd have a point. Since only a few people seem to be hearing it, it's not impossible that the real meaning of the song is just a stand-in for some kind of airy music that only they are hearing, not to imply that they're hearing something from Earth. At present, we'll just have to see what it does mean next episode.

So, if the Colonial fleet is picking up stray Earthly broadcasts, they would be seeing them as through a time machine, same way Hubble views back to the origins of the Universe. And, some crappy little radio would not be the receive. Neither would random individuals of the hull of Galactica. The energy loss as signals travel through a planetary atmosphere then out to space is significant. Add to that the influence of interstellar radiation, gravitational and other astronomical phenomena, and it would take a very sophisticated listening post to pick them up.

Related to the above. Also, that Tigh hears it without the aid of a radio should tell you one of two things: either he has machinery in his head (which would be pure speculation), or he's not really hearing an earth signal, as there's nothing to translate EM to sound.

So, BSG fans, I think this episode just went completely off the rails. And, as a parting challenge, why would Roslin go back to sipping Kamala when she has Hera available as a blood donor to treat her cancer. DUH! Hey BSG guys. Don't you think we actually watch this stuff? C'mon, get with the program. Cut the metaphysical crap and start giving us unique and character-honest scripts instead of relying on old, hackneyed and cliché scifi tricks. You should not take fan loyalty for granted.

As with many things that seem to go unaddressed, I have a hunch that we will see why Roslin has not already taken a dose of Hera's blood (I suspect either she can't or won't ask Helo and Athena for their permission, for whatever reason).


To me, I saw things that were very consistent with the characters. We saw Adama being less than rational when it comes to people close to him (assuming Lee knew about Ellen Tigh for no reason when he was just furious with him over Roslin's cross-examination, being blindly loyal to Tigh despite his continual problems, trying to protect Roslin on the stand even though it would be a gross abuse of power). We saw Baltar, the resistant chosen one, who continues to go along only because he knows not what else to do. We see Lee, who's still bent on making an identity for himself by crossing not only his father but his wife and perhaps the majority of his people. We see Tigh, who's still haunted by demons old and new--his wife, his drinking.

Me, I see the same characters that we've always known.

[BubblingOverWithIdeas]

Spoiler:

I don't think that's true, is it? Wasn't Gaeta there? I think he was in the corner of Colonial One when they force Baltar to sign. I think he was there and he's outright going to commit perjury.

No, he only found out about the list afterward and ran to Baltar to harangue him about it.

Spoiler:

He's going to commit perjury by saying that he was there and saw Baltar sign it without objection. According to the spoilers which have all been right so far.

[Marauder359]

I suspect either she can't or won't ask Helo and Athena for their permission, for whatever reason.


To me, I saw things that were very consistent with the characters. We saw Adama being less than rational when it comes to people close to him (assuming Lee knew about Ellen Tigh for no reason when he was just furious with him over Roslin's cross-examination, being blindly loyal to Tigh despite his continual problems, trying to protect Roslin on the stand even though it would be a gross abuse of power). We saw Baltar, the resistant chosen one, who continues to go along only because he knows not what else to do. We see Lee, who's still bent on making an identity for himself by crossing not only his father but his wife and perhaps the majority of his people. We see Tigh, who's still haunted by demons old and new--his wife, his drinking.

Me, I see the same characters that we've always known.

"Whatever reason" is a nice way of putting that... Don't we know exactly why she won't ask? If you stole their kid from them and passed her off as dead, only after she'd already saved your life once, would you ask them to do it again?

And I totally agree about the characters seeming fine. I don't think any of them are nuts. The characters being insane is a lame copout to the real human psychological drama unfolding. It would be a nice easy package for us to wrap nicely with a bow to call Baltar crazy... Baltar isn't crazy. The Six in his head isn't nothing... We don't know what it is, but it isn't him being nuts. Insanity has no real dramatic value to main characters. Insanity is something used to dismiss or minimize a side character you don't really want to examine.

Regarding Lee... Even though he undoubtedly thinks Baltar is a creep, I do think that a number of factors will likely lead him to be the Caprican that calls and leads the charge from within that class toward equality.

I think people miss the point about what he's doing here. When he went so far as to resign his commission, I think you have to take his veracity somewhat at face value. It isn't Baltar he's defending, it's what he thinks Baltar and the rest of them have turned away from, a righteous system, that he's fighting for. Look for Lee to become a man of the people... I believe Lee will be the next President. Just a theory.

[apotheion]

In an earlier episode they pointed out how there is no unified colonial law system, and were unsure of how exactly to try Baltar. They're kind of making this up as they go. It is, however, a civilian jury, not a military one. The members of the tribunal were chosen randomly from among all the captains of the ships in the fleet. Adama is there, not because he's mister number one military guy, but because he is the captain (so-to-speak) of the galactica, and was therefore eligible (and required to be a part of) the lottery for tribunal members.

As for allowing Lee to "play lawyer . . . "

Where does it say one must "be" a lawyer to act as one? There's nothing wrong with people choosing to defend themselves, except that most people would be unable to do so effectively. The reason you pay through the nose for a lawyer is because lawyers know the ins and outs of the law system and how it works (and how to find tricky ways to get desired results, or at least prevent the OTHER lawyer from using those tricky ins and outs). next time you run someone over with your car and kill them, by all means choose to defend yourself in lieu of hiring a lawyer (or using a court-appointed one): it is your preogative, but it's also probably not the best idea.

Lee wanted to be the one to cross-examine Roslin because he is a man of integrity (despite what papa head-up-his-ass hypocrit says and thinks) and knew he had to be the one to confront her, as opposed to Lambkin doing it while Lee sits back and looks like a weasel too sneaky and afraid to do the dirty deed himself. Lambkin allowed it because he knew it would be more damning and effective if Lee did it.

Papa Adama clearly forgets his place in the larger scheme of things now and then. Just because he is in charge of the fleet's defense does not make him absolute tyrant, but he forgets that, and assumes his word is enough to squash what he feels is inappropriate behavior. He is hardly infallible, however, just as he is not all-powerful. Part of the "benefit" of the civilian way of life is the freedom of choice, even the choice to make short-sighted mistakes (such as electing a man president simply because he says he'll settle on a planet, BECAUSE you're tired of being on ships and wanna go planetside, ignoring the possibility of cylons finding you).

Why is Baltar on trial? Is he a bad guy? It doesn't matter. He's on trial because they want a scapegoat, and he's hated enough by everyone to fit the bill. Was he a good president? No. But he was elected, and he did what he said he would do. It's not his fault the people who voted for him didn't realize the ends to which their decisions (wanting settlement on new caprica) would take them. They, however, do not realize that (or don't want to admit it, or their ignorance to it), and find it easier to blame Baltar for everything.

Lee doesn't like Baltar, but he defends him. Because he believes in the system and Baltar's rights as a citizen and person. Sooooo many other people do not see this, Adama and Dee included. They're the ones who should be asking themselves if they deserve to live (like Athena reminded Adama way at the beginning). Lee deserves to live, as shown by his actions. The majority, however, would not agree.

[callmeishmael]

Baltar could at least be charged with gross negligence or even manslaughter...just when the numbers get so large, it would be a crime against humanity. He gave a woman that he new was a cylon (because Cane asked him to interrogate her) a nuclear warhead (civilians and marines saw it delivered to her)...the nuclear bomb went off when they began settling on new caprica, and the cyclons told baltar (in front of other civilians) that they found the settlement because of a radiation signature of a nuclear explosion.

[huntress]

To deduce the exact legal system will only give me an headache, so I shouldn't try to figure it out. It seems to me though that Ron D. Moore based it on the Common Law system used in the States (which is only logical because he is the most familiar with it) because of the use of an adversarial system and not an inquisitorial system. What is interesting about this trial though is that I am not aware of any jury. Was there any that I am not aware of? I also had some problems with Lee being able cross-examine a witness since he in no lawyer and has never studied law but I guess very few lawyers exist on the fleet to begin with and I agree with apotheion that they are mostly improvising. Normally Baltars defense attorney could really question the impartiality of the court (especially in the case of Bill Adama) but he is not,which might either have to do with their system of law or the fact that they are really just making this up along the way....see what I meanI am already analysing too much and it is starting to give me a headache. I do wonder how civil disputes are dealt nowadays. ARE they dealt with or are they overlooked? I am sure that each of the 12 colonies had their own legal system based on their history and believes, but I am also sure that some basic rights have been codified for all 12 colonies for example the right Baltar relies on is also codified in any legal system that I know of (which is the German, Austrian, French, Italian, British and US legal system). In the case of the US it is the sixth amendment, in which all accused have the right for a speedy and public trial by an impartial jury, be confronted with the witnesses against him, have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and the right for assistance of counsel. Like I said the impartiality is a real problem here, one of many but I will stop now.

Where does it say one must "be" a lawyer to act as one? There's nothing wrong with people choosing to defend themselves, except that most people would be unable to do so effectively.

I don't know from which country you are and if things are different there (they are different everywhere) but at least in Austria and Germany it IS necessary to be represented by a lawyer in front of a court, unless it is a small district court, the sum that is dealt with is lower then a certain amount of money and it is only a delinquency not a felony.

I saw the episode yesterday and I agree that it felt very short, which just shows that it was well written. I wouldn't have minded though if they had shown a 90 minute special. The scene with Laura, Lee and Bill was intesne and well acted. Kudos as always to all actors involved. I agree that when Helo talked about "the change of weather" that Gaetar looked as if he thought " okay is now everyone in the whole fleet loosing their mind?"

[ShadowMaat]

Dunno about you, but if it came down to a choice of hiring a certified brain surgeon who had diplomas and certificates on his wall and years of experience or some guy who'd "studied hard" but was only self-educated and had never performed an actual operation before but wanted to prove to his daddy and everyone else that he was more than just a jet jock, I'd pick the certified surgeon, no question.

Granted, brain surgery is probably a lot more specialized than lawyering, but Baltar's life is just as dependent on a good outcome to this trial as it would be if he went under the knife. Maybe more so because brain surgery doesn't depend upon outside opinion.

[USA1290]

To deduce the exact legal system will only give me an headache, so I shouldn't try to figure it out. It seems to me though that Ron D. Moore based it on the Common Law system used in the States (which is only logical because he is the most familiar with it) because of the use of an adversarial system and not an inquisitorial system. What is interesting about this trial though is that I am not aware of any jury. Was there any that I am not aware of ?...

Hello: It reran last night. I watched again. I saw the tribunal panel. I saw the court reporter. I saw the Marines as the bailiff/court security. I did not see a jury.
It seems, a tribunal is a combo of judge + jury. The female captain appeared to be the chief justice/foreperson. I would think to be balanced, there should be a professional judge presiding. That is to have someone to referee & rule on points of law & procedures & objections. The female capt. did seem to know what was going on, prehaps she has a legal background.