Dirty Hands (316)

[BubblingOverWithIdeas]

damn - I'd forgotten it was a separate ship (a battleship could have its own refinery)

oh well it wasn't the galactica so I'll rephrase that :

It wasn't the conveyor belt itself that would blow up the ship, it was the chain reaction the malfunction would set off in the tylium.

[SoulReaver]

It wasn't the conveyor belt itself that would blow up the ship, it was the chain reaction the malfunction would set off in the tylium.

that's what I meant - ultimately I think it comes to the same -)

It's quite simple. Robots are illegal. The Colonials downgraded their own technology after the First Cylon War and were only beginning to advance again when the attack came.

doing away with dangerous & extremely advanced AI doesn't call for thinking in terms of black & white and reverting to the other extreme (basically the stone age)
somehow I doubt that robots such as these would ever have posed a threat to the colonials

[BubblingOverWithIdeas]

that's what I meant - ultimately I think it comes to the same -)

And it comes to the realistic outcome of the ship blowing up. It's constructed not unlike a bomb.

doing away with dangerous & extremely advanced AI doesn't call for thinking in terms of black & white and reverting to the other extreme (basically the stone age)
somehow I doubt that robots such as these would ever have posed a threat to the colonials

People get paranoid, what I can say? This wasn't some first-class refinery, anway. And if a malfunction occurs, who has the smarts and maneuverability to fix it? Human workers who know the equipment, or robotic arms?

And I just thought of something. Just because they had robotic technology, it doesn't mean it was widely implemented outside of the richer colonies that none of the refinery workers come from. There's money to be thought of. Add the post-war paranoia, and there's really no reason the refinery shouldn't be run by hand.

[SoulReaver]

And it comes to the realistic outcome of the ship blowing up. It's constructed not unlike a bomb.

well if one single malfunctioning conveyor belt can blow up a spaceship, that's quite a design flaw isn't it ?

People get paranoid, what I can say? This wasn't some first-class refinery, anway. And if a malfunction occurs, who has the smarts and maneuverability to fix it? Human workers who know the equipment, or robotic arms?

we're not talking about qualified engineers like Tyrol to attend to the occasional technical glitch, but blue collar workers & farmboys tending to round-the-clock operation of extremely critical equipment. normal operation of the machinery, even a purely mechanical malfunction such as a jammed belt could easily be handled by a robot with minimal AI, they wouldn't need a polyvalent full-blown sentient construction for that

I agree with the paranoia part though (wth, this was beyond paranoia)

And I just thought of something. Just because they had robotic technology, it doesn't mean it was widely implemented outside of the richer colonies that none of the refinery workers come from. There's money to be thought of. Add the post-war paranoia, and there's really no reason the refinery should be run by hand.

exactly there's no reason it should -)
what is more cost-efficient : a person or a machine that doesn't eat, rest, fall sick or complain ? money is the very reason why real-life earth of today is becoming more & more automated

[Agent_Dark]

what is more cost-efficient : a person or a machine that doesn't eat, rest, fall sick or complain ? money is the very reason why real-life earth of today is becoming more & more automated

In modern Western societies, yes. But what about places like China or Thailand for example? Abundant, cheap labour without the need for expensive machines.

[SoulReaver]

In modern Western societies, yes. But what about places like China or Thailand for example? Abundant, cheap labour without the need for expensive machines.

I dunno about thailand but china is quickly catching up with modern times despite the egregiously cheap labor
labor can be as cheap as you want but in the mid & long run automation turns out cheaper

[BubblingOverWithIdeas]

exactly there's no reason it should -)

Sorry, meant "shouldn't". There's no reason it shouldn't be run by hand. I've changed that now.

[rhade]

You also have to think about not only the technology but the fleet itself. It is not really representative of all ships available it is the rag tag fleet after all. Even if they did have the robotics what happens when they break down. I would assume that they would lack the parts and facilities to repair them. I would even think that they may of had robots but after constant usage they wore down and could not be replaced because of the expertise, parts and facilities needed so as time went on more robots broke down leading to more people being used and for longer periods. Also consider that the facilities were down for a year and not in use to suddenly being at full production and you can easily get the types of issues that occurred.

[Lady Snow]

You also have to think about not only the technology but the fleet itself. It is not really representative of all ships available it is the rag tag fleet after all. Even if they did have the robotics what happens when they break down. I would assume that they would lack the parts and facilities to repair them. I would even think that they may of had robots but after constant usage they wore down and could not be replaced because of the expertise, parts and facilities needed so as time went on more robots broke down leading to more people being used and for longer periods. Also consider that the facilities were down for a year and not in use to suddenly being at full production and you can easily get the types of issues that occurred.

This is a good point. There may well have been more in the way of mechanization onboard the RTF and it may have broken down - or, even worse, the parts may have been cannibalized to help construct the infrastructure for "Baltar's Future" on New Caprica.

For all we know, the Colonies may not have had a large human labour force. The capital city on the "main" planet (Caprica City) had something like seven million people - far from the largest in our society. There's no way to predict planetary occupation from the population of a single city, but I would be surprised if there were enough people on one planet to create a menial labour force.

[anotherquestion]

This is a good point. There may well have been more in the way of mechanization onboard the RTF and it may have broken down ...

The colonials are, once again, engaged in a war with a robotic race. Even if there were sophisticated robots aboard the Tillium refinery ship, I expect they would have been dismantled rather than "entrusted" to handle volatile explosive fuel. I expect this kind of activity is one that Colonials expect to "get their hands dirty" doing. After all "Fool me once, shame on,....shame on...we won't get fooled again".

For all we know, the Colonies may not have had a large human labour force. The capital city on the "main" planet (Caprica City) had something like seven million people - far from the largest in our society. There's no way to predict planetary occupation from the population of a single city, but I would be surprised if there were enough people on one planet to create a menial labour force.

Of course Colonial society is, according to the Scriptures and the limited historical evidence we heard as backstories to the series, no more than 3,000 years old, much younger than the known Earth history. This makes the size of its larger cities and its relative technological advantage most impressive, even given the fact that they started from a sizable (and at least literate) seed from Kobol.

[Lady Snow]

Are we assuming that all machines are robots? What I'm trying to get at here is that I find it silly that the Colonials had the conveyor belt in place, but didn't have a better method of delivery from the pile to the belt than human labour. I'm not thinking of sophisticated robotics, I'm thinking more along the lines of a waterwheel - something to deliver parcels.

[anotherquestion]

Regarding the chances that a lot of people will back up Baltar: they are very good. History has shown us over and over again, that individuals are smart but the mass of people dumb. Baltar is a good demagogue and in his book he addresses a lot of topics that are hot topic issues in the fleet. The life on the ships is hellish. People live together at very close space, have little or no privacy. There is not enough food and medicine ( --> Black Market and that was BEFORE New Caprica), the work is dangerous and hard. On top of it many people are traumatized from the initial attack, the events on New Caprica and everyone is constantly scared that the Cylons will appear and blow them out of the water because their ships are in a terrible state and now they don't even have the Pegasus anymore to defend them. In such an environment it is easy for Baltar to gain an audience. Of course many will remember what he did on New Caprica and I am sure that a lot of people will point that out either in private or it will be pointed out in his trial but there will be enough people who will "forget" or ignore his role or even try to defend him. I am really looking forward to the trial.

I agree, in principle, with most of your analysis of the situation, but have a couple of areas of disagreement.

If history has shown that the mass of people are dumb and only a few individuals are smart, then a democracy is not the best way to organize a society. An aristocracy or meritocracy makes more sense, and will end up accomplishing more. What's shaping up in the Colonial realm is uncertain, it is shifting over time, but took a perilous turn, in my opinion, during the course of this episode.

A lot of people have rightly remarked about the parallels between Baltar's "underground" publication from prison and "Mein Kampf" (My Struggle) published by Hitler during a similar incarceration prior to World War II. The parallel is apt and if the Colonials ever had experienced the equivalent of Hitler, they would have seen it themselves, but they apparently haven't. In fact Colonial political history must have been exceptionally bland and non-instructive. We haven't heard Baltar's administration, for example, being compared with any previous one--good or bad. You might argue that this is simply done in order not to confuse us, the viewers, with too much backstory that doesn't directly contribute to moving the action forward, but, nevertheless, it does make for a poorer context in which to predict how the Colonist jury will ultimately decide the fate of Baltar.

It is also a good use of misdirection, since the real consolidation of power is now taking place for Adama and Roslyn, not Baltar. Adama's threat of executing Cally was not simply a ploy, in my opinion. He was deadly serious.
This represents an absolute grasp of authority that would be seen as unambiguously menacing in the hands of any other figure of authority (like Cain, Tigh, or Baltar) but Adama has a "free pass" by most of the posters on this forum. Why is that?

Like most people, I like Adama. He has everything a great leader needs: gravitas, charisma, experience, and, until this episode, a balanced approach to the exercise of power. These are aspects that have garnered him a lot of loyalty, sometimes uncritical loyalty. All the pilots, even the iconoclasts among them like Starbuck, appear to revere "the old man". To me, exactly this kind of charisma can lead to a "cult of personality" that, in itself, is not exactly dangerous unless the leader himself loses his perspective and sense of humanity. Many leaders are as warmly remembered for their personality and elan as much as there actual accomplishments--Reagan and Kennedy immediately come to mind as prime examples for the right and left. Hitler, of course was charismatic too, and so was Stalin (who was the one the term "cult of personality" was coined).

Signals are mixed from the last few episodes about Adama's path that has led him to his conception of himself in his critical position as military leader of the Colonies. In the long recollection during the anniversary of his ex-wife, he seemed to regret sacrificing the well being of his family for his military career (although, as we saw, the instability in his marriage appears to have been caused by his wife's mental state as much as his neglect). The lesson Adama brings away from these reflections, however, is not what I would have expected. Instead of re-asserting the primacy of personal relationships over military responsibilities, Adama elects instead to avoid them entirely. His obvious affection for Roslyn is dormant and will remain so, while the both of them exercise their self-assigned roles of responsibility. This seems to lead to an increasing "dehumanizing" of Adama, and puts him less in touch with the feelings and priorities of "the common man".

The "Unfinished Business" episode has a darker side too. Adama called out the chief, then too, to teach him a lesson about the primacy of duty. Adama said explicitly that he had gotten too close to those he led. We have to ask ourselves is that as bad a thing as he thinks? Did Adama have to allow himself to be beaten bloody to atone for this grievous error? Those were uncomfortable scenes for me to watch and to think about later. In reasserting a distance between himself and the people under his care, Adama is taking a just as big a risk as he did when he "cut them some slack". To me, Adama's actions in the "Unfinished Business" episode were almost an act of hubris, almost as if he were thinking of himself as a living parable, allowing himself to be beaten for the instruction and moral edification of his troops. At once patriarchal and Messianic.

Leading, as he does, under the most extreme of wartime conditions, Adama's character is constantly challenged and tested. He is walking a thin line most of the time, and in this episode he appears to have strayed a bit too far from it. One of the most appealing aspects of Adama, however, is that he appears to be able to learn from his mistakes, to admit them to others, and to change course when he realizes he has gone astray. I'm hoping this will happen again.

Baltar, as a counter example, was a scheming egotist interested in self-aggrandizement from the first moment we saw him in the mini-series. For the following 40 or 50 hours of airtime we seen, he's been scrambling for his life from one crisis to another. Should he have taken a bullet rather than signing the infamous death order when coerced by the Cylons ? What would that have accomplished ? What would that have done for the prospects of Gaeta, who was in the position to supply the intelligence to the rebels and, ultimately Galactica, that resulted in the liberation of New Caprica. I'm sure Tigh would have rather seen him die rather than sign a document. But Tigh himself has done more than sign death warrants, he has been judge and executioner, even to his own wife, who did nothing but try to keep him alive at any cost. What has Tigh learned after this lesson but to be more intransigent than ever ?

Also, didn't it seem that no matter how well skilled the refiners could be on the Tillium vessel, that there was an absolute shortage of the raw material itself? The cavernous hanger deck seemed almost empty, with only a small heap of ore left. Looks like the fleet will have to do some more mining.

Also the conveyor mishap itself appeared to have been a deliberate act of sabotage by one of the crew, who put a batch of contaminated ore on the belt itself, or am I just mis-inferring that from one of the scenes ?

[Major Fischer]

I'm rather shocked that no one in this discussion has pointed out that Cally was formenting rebellion on a military ship in a time of war. You can't unionize a military vessel, especially not in a time of war. What if the cylons had jumped in right when the deck crew was refusing to launch except for nessecary missions. Do they have a dradas down there? Would they have believed a call from CinC? Would the people in CinC have had to go down and show them proof that one launch was nessecary?

I believe the point the writers were making is that you can have a strike on a civilian ship and that's appropriate, but not on Galactica. You can't have crewmen deciding orders are optional. This is true of every military in the world, even in democratic countries.

Also, someone up thread said something about Roslin having the captain arrested for reading a book. No, that's not what he was arrested for. He was arrested for threatening to stop the fuel supply and have "accidents" in time of war. That kind of behavior would get you arrested in any established democracy as well.

Granted, I thought Roslin was a bit out of character in this episode at the start, but I think it balances rather well when you put it in comparison to the way President Adar was ready to send the troops in against a teachers union on Caprica. It's apparent to me that Colonial society has a history of violently putting down unions and in that context Roslin's reaction is rather enlightened. After all she did talk to the chief and they did come to an understanding in the end.

As for the comparisons of Adama to Cain... at one point in Pegesus, Adama tells Tigh that there is a context to actions, and out of context there are actions Galactica has taken that would look just as bad as the ones attributed to Cain. Now we've been told by RDM that yes Cain did do those things, but I wonder if she would come off as such a villin if we had seen those actions and the events surrounding them.

[Deckard07]

I'm new to the forum, but am I the only one who thinks there is a copy of Baltar on the Refinery Ship confirming he is a cylon? The attached picture is taken from the scene right before Cheif Tyrol is about to shutdown the refinery coveyor operation and the camera zooms in on this guy for about 3 seconds. It's an uncanny resemblance to Baltar...

[anotherquestion]

I'm new to the forum, but am I the only one who thinks there is a copy of Baltar on the Refinery Ship confirming he is a cylon? The attached picture is taken from the scene right before Cheif Tyrol is about to shutdown the refinery coveyor operation and the camera zooms in on this guy for about 3 seconds. It's an uncanny resemblance to Baltar...

Close, but no Baltar.