Hero (308)

[ToasterOnFire]

I didn't see complete and total blame of the war being laid on the humans
because of their spying. I did see Adama insinuating that belief, which
goes a long way toward explaining his guilt over the entire series so
far, but I didn't see some definite statement by TPTB. Roslin noted how
it could have been numerous other events that triggered the war, and we
still have no idea what the cylons were thinking before attacking.

I think there has been a lot of projection recently of current events
onto BSG. That's understandable to a certain extent, but it's also a
risky avenue to take, especially without knowing the intentions of the
writers. Goldberg makes all these assumptions about what Moore and co.
were thinking while writing this ep, yet has no proof beyond his own
interpretation to back up his claims.

[Ojos]

Goldberg makes all these assumptions about what Moore and co.
were thinking while writing this ep, yet has no proof beyond his own
interpretation to back up his claims.

Take out Goldberg's name, and that statement could apply to lots of people, especially on these boards.

[Nolamom]

Good point Toaster on Fire. Especially when we really don't know with any degree of certitude WHEN the episodes were written. It's easy to say that such-and-such current event influenced a particular episode, however, the episode may have been written some time *before* the event ever occured.

[Arative]

Adama may believe that crossing the armistic line with the scout ship caused the war but then again he doesn't know that Caprica 6 was sleeping with Baltar for access to the defense mainframe a year before the event with the scout ship even occurred. The Cylons were planning this attack well before that Bulldog incident.

Some people may come to the conclusion that this season has been about leftwing anti-war, pro-suicide bombing and say it is about the Iraq war. Others, like myself, might see parallels in the resistance fighters of WW2 in France and other countries. There really is no right or wrong, its up to each individual to make their own determination. But consider this, what is one of the central themes of the show, since day 1 really, all of this has happened before and all of it will happen again. Could RDM by writing about events that strike a chord with people on current events of today as well as by making parallels to past events really saying that if we don't learn from past mistakes, we are doomed to repeat them?

[ShadowMaat]

If there's any "message" this season I'd say that it's how things aren't as black and white as some people may think... and the writers generally leave it up to the individuals to decide what's black, what's white, and what's another shade. I've had some issues with what I see as blatant political grandstanding, but there are people who don't see that at all, so it means it probably isn't as blatant as I think it is. As the saying goes, "your mileage may vary," but to say that "this is definitely what was meant" is asinine, especially if it's accompanied by insults towards those who fail to see it that way. One man's obvious is another man's obscure.

My confidence in the series was shaken to the bedrock by the S2 finale and while I've been psyched about a few eps this season I doubt I'll ever reobtain my previous faith in the show. My perspective has changed, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it means I "see" a lot more than I used to and unfortunately, in my case, I'm not liking as much of what I see.

Hero was an okay ep with some good character development and interesting revelations, but... In the long run I guess it just doesn't interest me very much. Unfortunately I've also seen a few other shows where a character feels "burdened" by some reward so that's growing a bit tedious, but whatever.

The Cylon side of things is now becoming the more interesting part of the story, in my opinion, and I'm sticking around out of curiosity to see where it's leading.

[Beeblebrox]

Good point Toaster on Fire. Especially when we really don't know with any degree of certitude WHEN the episodes were written. It's easy to say that such-and-such current event influenced a particular episode, however, the episode may have been written some time *before* the event ever occured.

One would have to be blind as a box of lint to not see that the writers are superimposing their political beliefs about the war against Islamic Jihadist in general, and the war in Iraq in particular, on the story-line. M*A*S*H was more subtle in its political statements about Vietnam than BSG is being about the GWOT. The suicide bombing plot, the New Caprica/Iraq occupation plot, the "genocide" plot, the Cylons-are-just-protecting-themselves-from-the-eeevil-war-mongering-Admirals plot; all of these were cast from a decidedly leftist ideological world-view.

Goldburg laid out exactly what the plot of the last ep was implying. Meanwhile, what I am hearing as a counter-argument is that:

a. any bearing on world events is purely coincidental
b. TPTB are simply showing how complex the situation is and are presenting all the sides.

The first point is ridiculous on its face and does not merit discussion while the second argument is false given that only one side was presented.

-Adama believed he provoked the war and was torn up with guilt about it.
-Rosalyn said that the Admiralty was at fault and besides, people do both good and bad things and he (Adama) should just live with the fact that he made a bad choice.
-Apollo was a mess of metrosexual ramblings about Adama's actions.
-Tigh thought Adama was a bast*rd.

Where was the character who laid out the argument for the righteousness of Adama's and the Admiralty's decision? Where was the exposition about the necessity of going to war once in awhile in a just cause? Where was the voice saying that the Cylons, despite a few exceptions, are hell-bent on their destruction and should be defeated at the first possible opportunity?

*crickets chirping*

Bottom line, if the writers wanted to give us multiple things to think about then they would have presented both sides of the issue. They would have both the liberal and the conservative perspective. They did not. They showed just their side and thus, they didn't even rise to the "simple" level of black and white. They elected just to show black and leave that as the only thing to ponder.

By the way, conservatives are, in no way "challenged" by leftist writing like the last two eps of BSG because it is the same pabulum that we get bombarded with everyday on every network TV show and newscast. How is spouting a tired anti-war, "why do they hate us" line challenging or even interesting in a day when everyone is doing the same thing?

As for showing a near rape or an implied 3-way, I find that hardly cutting edge - in fact it is boring. Who cares? It is not a statement about anything except to say "look how daring we are". It might spice up the storytelling at a superficial level but that's about it.

BSG is (or was) about making a bold statement about humanity's survival in the face of an onslaught of overwhelming evil from without (and a few traitors from within.) If a character waking up with two robots is some people's idea of pushing the envelope then they need to get out of the bedroom in their parent's basement more often.

You want edge? Show that the colonists have an absolute moral right to defend themselves against the evil of the Cylons by spying on them, using biological weapons against them, even executing Helo and other traitors for siding with them. Show that the Cylons are driven by their loony religious beliefs to exterminate humanity and that no amount of "understaaanding" will save them.

Now THAT would be pushing the envelope.

[Beeblebrox]

I should correct myself on one point.

If ADAMA woke up with Rosalyn on one side of his bed and Apollo on the other side, THAT would be pushing the envelope. ;-)

[Beeblebrox]

This is not to gratuitously chastise some who are posting in this thread but a word about debate methodology. I note that a number of people are criticizing me for putting my "interpretation" on the show's writing as if this is something wrong but then proceed to put their own (often weakly supported) interpretation on the writing themselves! Well which is it? Either we all have a right to interpret the meaning of the show or none of us do. There is no luxury of telling me I can't while you can.

The second internal inconsistency I note is that some are telling me that I am wrong for wanting moral clarity in the show rather than leftist moral relativism. This is a laughable rhetorical position given that "wrongness" is an absolute. You are taking an obvious black and white position by telling me that I am incorrect!.

There is an old axiom from freshman philosophy 101 that states that if you believe that there is no right or wrong (i.e. just shades of gray) then you have no basis upon which to complain about another person's position since, by your own admission, their position can neither be right nor wrong either. If you are one of those making a claim that I should not be so black and white then I invite you to take note of how nonsensical you are being. Labeling my arguments as "simplistic" or "black and white" is in itself, a black and white value judgement. May I suggest that if your preference is to see everything as gradients - even the big issues, then my position is, by your own definition, simply one of those gradients and is no more right or wrong than any other one.

[ToasterOnFire]

One would have to be blind as a box of lint to not see that the writers are superimposing their political beliefs about the war against Islamic Jihadist in general, and the war in Iraq in particular, on the story-line.

Oh, nice. Again, do you have any proof that's what the writers are doing? Any quotes from podcasts or interviews? Because it's awfully arrogant to state that your position is the definitive, correct one without giving anything more than interpretation.

First I hear that the NC plotline depicted the humans as terrorists and the cylons as the US (supposedly sympathizing with the humans/terrorists), now I hear that the Hero ep depicted the humans as the US and the cylons as the terrorists (supposedly sympathizing with the cylons/terrorists). Huh?

You want edge? Show that the colonists have an absolute moral right to defend themselves against the evil of the Cylons by spying on them, using biological weapons against them, even executing Helo and other traitors for siding with them. Show that the Cylons are driven by their loony religious beliefs to exterminate humanity and that no amount of "understaaanding" will save them.

Now THAT would be pushing the envelope.

Sounds more like we'd be back to black and white, good vs. evil to me...

[Beeblebrox]

Oh, nice. Again, do you have any proof that's what the writers are doing? Any quotes from podcasts or interviews? Because it's awfully arrogant to state that your position is the definitive, correct one without giving anything more than interpretation.

This is sophism.

Are you actually asserting that a quote from an interview or a podcast is required for a viewer to determine what is going on in the show? How about if I just observe the transparent, if contradictory metaphor that is running rampant of late. If people are not observant enough to see it all I can say is "whatever".

First I hear that the NC plotline depicted the humans as terrorists and the cylons as the US (supposedly sympathizing with the humans/terrorists),

What was the name of that episode now? I forget. Something about an occupation. Right. Just happenstance that all the leftist media outlets call our efforts in Iraq an occupation. Probably just coincidental though.

now I hear that the Hero ep depicted the humans as the US and the cylons as the terrorists (supposedly sympathizing with the cylons/terrorists). Huh?

You are expecting internal consistency in this show? The whole premise that an enemy can wipe out everything you knew; family, belongings, your hometown, your entire planet and then you still are tortured about whether fighting back with full force is justified, is not believable in the least. The writers can one week show Adama as stalwart and driven to fight the Cylons at every turn including using WMDs on them and then the next week he is all wracked with guilt over starting the war.

One week suicide bombing is an acceptable defense against the evil Cylons and a few weeks later the Cylons are just misunderstood.

Thanks for reminding me of just a few more reasons that the writers need to break their cocaine habit and go back to something like just beer or coffee for their fix.

Sounds more like we'd be back to black and white, good vs. evil to me...

And that would be a bad thing? It would at least be unexpected if maybe a bit of a challenge for the producers to accomplish.

[ShadowMaat]

I think the problem, beeblebrox, is that your posts come across as you TELLING people "This is the way it is. This is the ONLY way it is. If you disagree you're just some bleeding-heart leftist idiot who's too biased to see the truth."

Or at least, that's how your posts come across to me. Obviously, again, things are open to interpretation by the individual readers and what's intended by the writer may not cross the medium to the individual readers. *shrug*

BSG has been fairly good so far at allowing fans to make up their own minds about things, although sometimes even when they beat us over the head with certain elements, I continue to choose my own path, even if it's in clear defiance of what the writers intend. Fie on 'em, I say.

[Arative]

This is sophism.

Are you actually asserting that a quote from an interview or a podcast is required for a viewer to determine what is going on in the show? How about if I just observe the transparent, if contradictory metaphor that is running rampant of late. If people are not observant enough to see it all I can say is "whatever".

What was the name of that episode now? I forget. Something about an occupation. Right. Just happenstance that all the leftist media outlets call our efforts in Iraq an occupation. Probably just coincidental though.

Well the quote from the podcast proves you are completely wrong and offbase about the precipice and occupation episodes being some leftist worldview that the current war is bad. Since Ron D. Moore, the creator and head writer of BSG said that the situtation the colonials faced in those two episodes drew direct parallels from resistance fighters in France and Holland during world war two. You were aware there were other wars than the Iraq war?

Are you also aware that there were things called occupations before Iraq? That might interest you to know. I mean when Sadaam invaded Kuwait, that was an occupation, when Germany invaded France, that was an occupation. Strange how that word keeps coming up in regards to outside forces stationed inside a country not of their own. I mean it's almost as if that is what the word means. Of course it wasn't as if the cylon's were occupying New Caprica and that is where the episode title came from, no, it must be the obvious left wing bias about the war in Iraq. Maybe you should get off your rightwing conspiracy theory that everything in the media is some vast liberal godless commie biased bent on brainwashing you, you jmight actually enjoy the show for once.

It is clear that you are unable to see anything in this show other than what your rightwing bias tells you. Surprisingly, this show is not about Iraq, its not about some liberal slant. Where were you when Roslin outlawed abortion? Something near and dear to every rightwingers heart, where was your outcry about the righist bias in this show! What should be clear is that the writers take both historical and contempory events in Earth's history and shape them to fit the galatica universe.

[Beeblebrox]

Since Ron D. Moore, the creator and head writer of BSG said that the situtation the colonials faced in those two episodes drew direct parallels from resistance fighters in France and Holland during world war two.

Oh right, I forgot all about those French resistance suicide bombers. Thanks for reminding me

Are you also aware that there were things called occupations before Iraq? That might interest you to know. I mean when Sadaam invaded Kuwait, that was an occupation, when Germany invaded France, that was an occupation.

So let me get this straight. You're saying that RDM is commenting on German occupied France? So the Cylons are NAZIs? Well, I feel better now.

Maybe you should get off your rightwing conspiracy theory that everything in the media is some vast liberal godless commie biased bent on brainwashing you, you jmight actually enjoy the show for once.

Thanks for putting so many words in my mouth. Good form.

Like many conservatives, I USED to enjoy the show immensely. I have been a huge evangelist for it. However, like me, conservative fans (such as Jonah Goldburg) who liked the show because BSG was a metaphor for modern day clash of civilizations, see the show lurching left just like I do. The fact that I see it and you don't probably says more about you than it does me.

It is clear that you are unable to see anything in this show other than what your rightwing bias tells you.

I see you are all knowing now.

Surprisingly, this show is not about Iraq, its not about some liberal slant.

Now who's interpreting what the show is about. You people are unbelievable! You hammer me for projecting and then you project something that is completely indefensible. If the show is not commentary on modern day events and instead is culling from past conflicts (a completely indefensible position but hey, I'll go with it), then why show suicide bombing, why go with the "misunderstood enemy" theme?

Where were you when Roslin outlawed abortion? Something near and dear to every rightwingers heart, where was your outcry about the righist bias in this show!

Why would I complain about something that I agree with? You clearly have not been reading what I have been writing. I want the show to return to its right-wing (if you want to call it that) bias. My complaint is that what made BSG unique in the first two seasons was that is was surprisingly free of left-wing handwringing and moral relativism. It was fresh.

What should be clear is that the writers take both historical and contempory events in Earth's history and shape them to fit the galatica universe.

Believe that if you want.

[Beeblebrox]

I think the problem, beeblebrox, is that your posts come across as you TELLING people "This is the way it is. This is the ONLY way it is. If you disagree you're just some bleeding-heart leftist idiot who's too biased to see the truth."

Or at least, that's how your posts come across to me.

Shadow,

If you read the opposing opinions to mine you should also notice people coming across as TELLING me "this is the way it is". It's all in your POV I suppose. If someone takes a fervant opposing view then that person is being dogmatic, while people who are taking like views as yours are "reasonable".

I think I have more than adequately pointed out the left wing tilt in these last two eps. I have yet to see ANYONE point out where RDM had a character defend with passion (or even in passing) the Admiralty position in Hero. Where was the character who threw Helo into the Brig for sabotage? No, TPTB want to leave the viewer with the the impression that Adama did wrong and that Helo did right. I, on the other hand, believe Adama did right and Helo did wrong.

Of course, it is RDM's show and he can do what he wants but that is not my point. My point is that the show is tilting left and tilting left is unwise given that this is the one show on TV aside from the first 8 seasons of SG-1 and the first 4 seasons of 24 that had appeal across the ideological spectrum. There is a reason that SG-1 is the longest running SF show on television (if you don't count Dr. Who). It held conservative values in high regard. Even the lib Daniel Jackson had to admit time and again that the Ga'ould were "pure evil". We got plenty of interplay between what is right and wrong on that show but the writers managed to develop characters as fallible, to show that the US govt. could be corrupt at times, and that the Russians were just people too (as long as they agreed with us of course). It is sad that the Ori plot resulted in a loss of interest by the public. That left only BSG as a place where ideological discussions could be pursued outside the direct context of (but still relevant to) current world events.

Personally, I would love to see just one show on television that challenged the Left's world view. For awhile, BSG was that show.

[Beeblebrox]

A few of the national columnists writing about the political overtones of BSG:

Spencer Ackerman writes in Slate: Battlestar: Iraqtica
Does the hit television show support the Iraqi insurgency?


Jonah Goldberg in January talking about stem cell research in BSG.

Jonah commenting on stealing elections.

And this from John Podhoretz in National Review responding to Jonah Goldberg concerns about the 3rd season leftward tilt:

Galactica Apologists

"I knew it would happen, and it's happening, Jonah. Whenever people on the Right love a work of popular culture that is unabashedly Leftist, they try to come up with some theory that makes it not so.

Message to BSG fans on the Right: You can love the show, as it is undeniably high-quality goods. What you cannot do is come up with some cockamamie explanation whereby it's not about how we Americans are the Cylons and the humans are "insurgents" fighting an "imperialist" power. The words "insurgents" and "imperialist" were spoken quite deliberately in the premiere. You have to be a sophist to deny an analogy the producers clearly mean us to draw without any question."