Escape Velocity (404)

[anotherquestion]

Today we tend to think of the Greco-Roman pantheon as something silly. Campy television shows haven't helped this. What Battlestar does wonderfully is makes it a real faith, and the people who believe in it have real and abiding faith. It also brings out a deliciously difficult problem that such societies have with mystery religions. I once had to read a book for a class, The Christians as the Romans Saw Them and Roslin's dilemma really speaks volumes of the problem that arises when a monotheistic religion pops up in a pluralist pagan society. A new god can always be absorbed into the pantheon, but one God forces both believers and non-believers to separate themselves from each other. Something the Colonials really can't very well afford to do. Tricky question.

This excellent observation is only undercut by the splintering and factions we have already seen among the Colonials. They appear to be most human when they are most divided, a fact that Roslin observed in an offhand comment to the Admiral. They have already shown strong divisions when the more fundamentalist Geminese spoke up against allowing one of their own to have an abortion, an incident that Roslin later supported by statute, but made an exception to for the particular individual that sparked the incident. We have seen traces of other factions divided by class, the Tylium ship refiners, for example. Whatever happened to the "compromise" scheme that Roslin was supposed to have accepted from Tyrol ? I don't remember seeing any evidence of the "rotation of duties" among the working class. It has never been referred to again.

I'm not sure I like Roslin's dictatorial bent recently, but really when we are honest she's always had those tendencies for the last year or two and we just haven't seen the push back. Is Lee right? Is Roslin right? Or is it as in most things in government the tragic case where they are both right, and wrong at the same time?

Is democracy a luxury when there are only 39,000 people left? It is received canon (to use religious terms) for Americans to say that democracy even in wartime will work. We had an election in the middle of a civil war (though few today seem to remember how flawed the presidential election of 1864 was). We had an election in the middle of World War II (though few of us seem to think about the social pressures on anyone who would have voted against FDR). But we have never been in the position the colonials are in. It seems to me a bit presumptuous for us to say that democracy is always the right solution.

This continues the slip from Democratic rule made explicit, once again, in the episode about the Tylium ship, where Adama threatened to stand Cally up against the bulkhead and have her shot if Tyrol didn't end the strike, a fact that the Chief sandwiched into his tirade against Cally and Adama in the bar. That episode ended on a very sour note for both Adama and Roslin, and I, for one, am glad to see it being re-examined.
Adama said once that we cannot escape the consequences of the decisions we have made, and that we have to ask ourselves sometimes if we deserve to survive.
Democracies and strong faith-based constituencies clearly aren't the best or most efficient ways to eliminate sectarian violence. Iron fisted dictators like Tito in the old Yugoslavia, or Sadam Hussein in Iraq had their respective populations so afraid of them that the incompatible component factions were held together for decades. When freed from the totalitarian oppressor, long buried hatreds quickly arose, with the inevitable violence and ethnic cleansing that followed.
Nevertheless, it is still hard for me to accept Roslin's proposition that democratic principles are "luxuries" in times of extreme stress. Individual rights and liberties ought to be in place precisely for those times, if they are to have any meaning at all. It is easy to allow full rights to those who agree with you about everything, it only becomes challenging, and very necessary, when you are upholding the rights of someone you vehemently oppose during the times of extreme duress (to ensure that his faction will do the same if the power shifts another way).

Is Tigh projecting Ellen? Perhaps. Is the Chief projecting? Perhaps. I don't know what is going on with the final four, but it is interesting. It is interesting to see them struggle and fight and love and come to terms, or refuse to come to terms.

Has Tigh been punishing himself his entire life to feel? Has he needed real unselfish love? And what the frak does Caprica think is going on in this conversation, because she clearly doesn't know he's a cylon.

Lots of references to the relationship of pleasure and pain in this episode, from Tory's simultaneous plucking and stroking of Baltar, to Saul Tigh's S&M encounter with Caprica Six in the brig. I'm not sure what to make of it. Tory seems to clinging to a Nixonian interpretation of what it means to be a Cylon ("if the President authorizes an action, it cannot be illegal"/If a perfect Cylon throws someone out an airlock, it must be a perfect thing to do).
Caprica Six asserts that pain brings increasing understanding (she must be brilliant by now, having suffered the pain of death and resurrection at least twice (once on Caprica shielding Baltar, and once on New Caprica taking a bullet to the head from Doral)). This, to me, smacks of a flimsy justification for the predilection of the whole Six line toward sadism (as seen from the beatings another Six gave Boomer on Caprica, and the obvious relish the Six model partook in the beatdown of Starbuck in the museum).

[nckzvnbr]

If pain makes something more clear; does death make it perfectly clear. Assuming of course, that death finds its ultimate expression in death.

[Mongoletsi]

...prophesied dieing leader could NOT be Roslin? I mean just for arguments sake, Baltar could fill that role also.

Really good point!

[Mongoletsi]

Whatever happened to the "compromise" scheme that Roslin was supposed to have accepted from Tyrol ? I don't remember seeing any evidence of the "rotation of duties" among the working class. It has never been referred to again.

I was wondering about that too; where are the crew of the Prometheus? Surely they're not flying Vipers on some kinda exchange scheme

Btw, is Helo not CAG now? I take it Tigh is officially EX-O again? Seems a bit weird that Gaeta is there with Helo too, as he'd be EX-O if Tigh went loco again.

Baltar is not insane, Head-Six and Head-Baltar are NOT figments of his imagination. That much we know for sure. He's not insane, he's possibly the most normal character in the series.

He's not insane, but he's far from the most "normal" character in the series!!

[Pic]

how in the world did the chief hear everything baltar was saying? are baltar's services now being broadcasted to the fleet? was that part of lee overturning rosslin's orders? broadcast rights being put in also? least for the galactica

hm wont be soon til baltar gets crucified lol i wonder how rdm's reimagining of that will turn out

Are you referring to my earlier post? I didn't see that Tyrol heard Baltar at all, just that they showed Baltar talking and then switched angles to show Tyrol in his quarters watching his son. We (being the "all-knowing" audience) still heard Baltar speaking because we quickly had the camera angle focused back on Baltar.

Make sense?

Lee didn't overturn Roslin's orders, a vote of the Quorum overturned an executive order which she had written regarding the right of groups to assemble.

[SoulReaver]

Lee is a lot more annoying than I expected him to be

ow...???
he seems to embody whatever trace of humanity is left in the colonial fleet. perhaps not a paragon of integrity & virtue but manifestly he comes closest. if Baltar's trial didn't suffice, that last scene in the Quorum made it quite clear : while Roslin was pulling another Cain & ranting on about freedom being a luxury whilst basically trying to browbeat Lee with that condescending schoolteacher's tone of hers (that could be summed up into something like "ok kid, I'm the prophet with the coloured snake visions, I've been thru this before & I've like 10000 years experience over you, plus I'm dying so I ain't got time for yer bulls**t"), he understood that the basic tenets of democracy & justice only have a meaning precisely when in the kind of circumstances where they are likely to be compromised. back in the pilot Adama sr. made that speech about the necessity of being "worthy of surviving" yet evidently junior is one of the few who appears to have caught on better than anyone else, even the author himself

to paraphrase the nox, Roslin is "younger" than he is
on the other hand she is being treated for cancer. maybe I'll put it down to the chems and frustration arising from the fact that she has to wear a wig :|

That was rather disturbing. I wonder if it was his grief and anger talking, or how he really feels?

it's how he feels deep down, and tbh I wasn't really surprised, all the more so than it was his [future] wife who shot his [real] g/f
in fact I was far more surprised when Tyrol & Cally got married. Cally ? poor choice mate, poor choice. oh well, Tory fixed this (<- ok, that last part was a troll -)

"the best of limited options", lol

There was a theme of pleasure/pain through this ep, with her and Baltar and Six/Tigh.

meh, for the Caprica/Tigh part at first I simply put it down to payback for Tigh's "interrogation" techniques back in s3 when he was trying to wrest some intel from her. then I realized it may have been simpler than that, it was just Caprica being bats**t insane ^_^

[OfF3nSiV3]

did Baltar just discover that Tori is a cylon?
in the end, HeadSix looks down on Tori, and Baltar has this shocked look

[Zamboni]

Tigh and Six? And for good measure. More disturbing than Cavil and Boomer last week.

Next week it'll be even more disturbing... It'll me me and Roslin! That's right, move over Admiral! Is it just me or does Roslin look hotter with the new hair? She's too sexy for a cancer patient...

Seriously though, I wonder if the Tigh / Six / Ellen thing has more than just the face value... Is Tigh seeing Ellen because of grief or is there some other reason why Ellen is "projected" onto Six...? Hmmm...

[LoneStar1836]

Interesting episode. One of those that needs more than one viewing in order to be able to glean all the little nuances from it...and one that I will definitely be listening to the commentary.


I wouldn't say that Baltar's story has ever been my favorite, but I do find his transformation over the seasons intriguing. And this episode made for another interesting addition to his evolution.

Course I had to laugh at how HeadSix was manipulating him like a puppet and "holding" him up like that. That poor Marine only following orders was prolly like 'wtf'.

I'm not sure I like Roslin's dictatorial bent recently, but really when we are honest she's always had those tendencies for the last year or two and we just haven't seen the push back. Is Lee right? Is Roslin right? Or is it as in most things in governemtn the tragic case where they are both right, and wrong at the same time.

Is democracy a luxery when there are only 39,000 people left? It is recieved canon (to use religious terms) for Americans to say that democracy even in wartime will work. We had an election in the middle of a civil war (though few today seem to remember how flawed the presidential election of 1864 was). We had an election in the middle of World War II (though few of us seem to think about the social pressures on anyone who would have voted against FDR). But we have never been in the position the colonials are in. It seems ot me a bit presumptious for us to say that democracy is always the right solution.

And the fact that this show can make me think about when and under what circumstances I would support a dictatorship is one of the things I love. Because before tonight I'm not sure I'd have said I'd ever support one. I've said that I thought Roslin was a dictator before, and that while I love her as a character she'd scare me if I lived in her society. Tonight I think I have to change my answer. I would be scared of her if I lived in that society, but I think I would chose her over chaos.

Sign me up for a brand new brown shirt.

Well I suppose you could have signed me up for a brown shirt at the end of season one. Except I was on the side of Adama and the military.

I really disagreed with Roslin (and Lee) when she played her part in splitting the fleet. I was of the mind that I would rather live under the rule of the military rather than live with democracy and without the military at that point in time in the story. Democracy and freedoms are grand and all, but when you all end up dead, what's the point?

Course like you said, that's one of the things I love about this show...making you evaluate/question your beliefs in certain circumstances...even though circumstances like this are almost unfathomable but interesting to ponder nonetheless.

Roslin's talk with Baltar really laid out her thinking at this phase of her life/political career. I really liked that scene. She knows she is becoming a dictator...which most likely disgusts her...but from her point of view, it has become a necessary evil, and she is going to be a ruthless one in the time she has left.

I can't say I really hate her for doing what she is doing. I don't think she is a bad person doing this for her own gain. I know she has real hatred for Baltar so that hate colors her decision making where he is involved, but she does have a larger goal in mind.

Though I do have to disagree with this particular attempt to curtail the right of assembly. I know she did it with a wink and a nod to everyone else that it would only unofficially apply to Baltar and his followers, but it just seemed like an impractical order to hand down. I agree that a religious war is the last thing the fleet needs, but there has to be another way to go about keeping the peace.

Tory and the one true god. Or Tory and sex. Or oh frak where to start with Tory. Okay, so I find Tory really compelling and damn sexy. Yes, I'm a freak. I love how her sad little robot frequencies seem to be messed up, but at the same time she was still on the same theme of intentional infliction of pain that the Chief and Tigh were. I wonder if Roslin knows she's attending those meetings. I wonder if she was among the women who charged the temple.

I want to see Roslin's reaction when she finds out.

I doubt that she knows what Tory is doing but it will be a showdown when she does find out.

I wonder if she will find out through Lee. Lee seemed to notice her there at the end when Baltar was giving his "perfect" speech. Could he think she is there spying on Baltar for the president?

I'll agree that the whole Roslin/Adama stroll time bit is really showcasing their personal relationship to the crew. They're starting to act like an old married couple everywhere these days, not just in private conversations. I guess since she's dying it doesn't matter anymore what the crew thinks or sees.

I think at this point in time what's the point in hiding it. People like to gossip and he is the boss so people are really going to gossip about him on his own ship.

Is it an appropriate relationship? In normal circumstances, I'd say no because of the positions of power that they hold, but they aren't exactly facing normal circumstance...facing the end of human existence and all...

Laura is dying, and she really has no one else to share her last days with.

The scenes they have together are touching yet so heartbreaking, especially when they throw in lines like this: "I want you to know what I like". It's rather depressing. EJO and MM do such a wonderful job.


Interesting pose that they left us with for Kara in this episode. Her laying there on that table and sweating like that with Anders eying her. Reminded me of how we were introduced to Leoben in "Flesh and Blood" with Kara standing there and remarking to Col. Reynolds that it was interesting that they go through all that trouble to appear human. And then we find out that next week

Spoiler:

Leoben will show up. At least my favorite Cylon is not dead yet.

[washi]

This is my first post on these forums. After lurking these BSG threads for some time to see how other people interpreted or appreciated each episode, it dawned on me that that my views on the show are well outside of the norm. So, given that my opinions appear to be largely unrepresented by the userbase here, I thought I'd chime in and represent myself.

Firstly, it seems almost a general consensus that the Baltar storyline this season is an annoyance and unliked, but I'm finding it truly fascinating, especially after this episode did it justice. I admit being less than enthralled when his new mortal deity job description involved hanging around in a dark room and being amicable to a group of morose hippies. But now that he has accepted his new role and taken to it in stride, his new role as venerated preacher has the potential to step into one of the remaining untapped thematic wells in American television: the link between religion and power in the context of war or crisis. Rather than taking religion for granted as something that humans interact with, BSG continues to represent it murkily as something manifested from human interaction. Furthermore, the growth in Baltar's character is now undeniable, and probably one of the most consistent and gratifying examples of character development in BSG.

And on the other hand, whereas most people seem engaged by the cylon-perspective scenes, I find them to be a completely bland waste of time. I think one of the reasons I enjoyed this episode so much was their complete absence. This final season should be about focus, culmination and convergence - going off on a tangent with the Cylons is just about the worst thing you could do.

And, whereas most people seemed to feel that last week's episode was really good, and yet this episode has received a warm reception, I'm of the reverse opinion. Last week's episode was poorly written, characterised, cheaply directed and wholly unfulfilling. This week's episode, despite the fact that I still resent Jane Espenson for her butchering of Buffy in season 6, was probably my favourite of the season so far. The characters were nailed perfectly there was a good balance of plot development, intimate character scenes, and some good special effects. I agree with most people that Lee's smugness last week wasn't quite right, but this week his character was portrayed as it should be - a steadfast defender of righteousness, with a dangerous niavity. I thought his actions this week, as well as Roslyn's comments regarding him, is the first convincing bit of continuity from the friction seen between them in Crossroads.

And speaking of Roslyn, this was the first episode all season that I didn't find her presence in either redundant or annoying. Although her scene with Adama in episode 2 was profound, her descent into the idealism of control and secrecy was never convincing - until now. In her discussion with Adama, as well as her talk with Baltar, I could genuinely feel her sense of desperation and anxiety - and then I understood that this ideological transformation is not sinister but is born from a weary desire to do good. I believe her when she says the right thing is sometimes a luxury. Lee and his newfound cohorts seem to think they can have political utopia when society is on the verge of ruin.

As you can probably tell, I genuinely appreciate Lee. In a series with so much chaos, it's a blessing to have a character you can latch on to and feel you know. Lee is that person. His firm ethical beliefs have always been present in Battlestar Galatica, but it isn't until now, when other characters are victims to ambiguity, that his unyielding ethicality shines.

Chief Tyrol's confused outbursts were highlights of the episode, and I feel they were portrayed very believably. It would seem that, more than losing Cally, with her death he's lost himself. Just as her identity as a pilot was holding Starbuck together in season 3, I fear that the Chief's (warranted) dismissal from his post will only facilitate his crisis.

This was a really strong episode that did not feel like filler at all - while last week’s did.

[wilsan]

Next week it'll be even more disturbing... It'll me me and Roslin! That's right, move over Admiral! Is it just me or does Roslin look hotter with the new hair? She's too sexy for a cancer patient.

I acually expected Roslin to pass away in this episode, her strenth has been deteriorating for some time now. I suspect that she won't be around that much longer, more than likely in this half of the season.

[daniel9]

what did tyrol project in this ep? everyone is saying he projected something. i know baltar projected head six, and tigh projected ellen, so what did tyrol project?

i wonder which religion this bsg is following? the old one followed mormonism. what about this one? i cant see count iblis making this baltar do evil deeds. or getting in a position to use mindcontrol on dee(apollo's wife), i also dont see baltar getting a fleet to muster against the colonials or the cylons since he loves both of them, i wonder if bsg will follow the comic of when they got to earth and meet adam and eve and a mysterious evil being anubus who is connected to iblis in someway.

baltar seems to be preaching satanism more than christianity. since its lucifer who loves and embraces sin

[Briangate78]

This episode was not as good as last week's episode, but it was still a very interesting episode. I really think the Baltar thing is getting way too deep. They must of dug that rabbit whole straight through Wonderland.

I really like Chief's character. I hope he does not become a bad and evil Cylon like Tory. I hope he becomes more humane like Caprica or Athena. Yes, Caprica is humane, she wants a world where Cylons and humans can co-exsist, Sadly both species are not ready for that and may never be. I think we are starting to see that some Cylons like Caprica want to live with humans and interact, while the other models want to either control the humans or destroy them all.

[somedude]

My feeling is that Tigh is back to being the XO, Helo is the CAG when he's on the Galactica- when he's not on board, maybe Redwing is the CAG?

[LoneStar1836]

Firstly, it seems almost a general consensus that the Baltar storyline this season is an annoyance and unliked, but I'm finding it truly fascinating, especially after this episode did it justice. I admit being less than enthralled when his new mortal deity job description involved hanging around in a dark room and being amicable to a group of morose hippies.

Welcome.

Well I have to say that until this episode, Baltar's story was not exactly my highlight of the first two episodes this season so I wasn't really missing him in last week's ep.

And on the other hand, whereas most people seem engaged by the cylon-perspective scenes, I find them to be a completely bland waste of time. I think one of the reasons I enjoyed this episode so much was their complete absence. This final season should be about focus, culmination and convergence - going off on a tangent with the Cylons is just about the worst thing you could do.

I have to disagree. They have been as integral to the story that is BSG as the humans so some focus does need to be on them. Granted I grew somewhat tiresome of them last season, especially when Baltar was with them on the basestar, but their evolution is just as important to the story so we need some resolution there as well, and this civil war of theirs is an interesting turn for them, imo. Not that I want a lot of time devoted to them, but they need a resolution as well.

I agree with most people that Lee's smugness last week wasn't quite right, but this week his character was portrayed as it should be - a steadfast defender of righteousness, with a dangerous niavity. I thought his actions this week, as well as Roslyn's comments regarding him, is the first convincing bit of continuity from the friction seen between them in Crossroads.

{snip} Lee and his newfound cohorts seem to think they can have political utopia when society is on the verge of ruin.

As you can probably tell, I genuinely appreciate Lee. In a series with so much chaos, it's a blessing to have a character you can latch on to and feel you know. Lee is that person. His firm ethical beliefs have always been present in Battlestar Galatica, but it isn't until now, when other characters are victims to ambiguity, that his unyielding ethicality shines.

I've always liked Lee, but I have disagreed with his actions/stances on more than one occasion, while I have agreed with others. He is very principled in his beliefs concerning democracy and freedom. While I can respect him for that and for what his character brings to the show, like you said he has a dangerous naivete in some of his decisions, imo.

Course I can't fault him in this episode. Not too sure I agreed with Roslin's order to limit freedom of assembly, but not necessarily because of her intentions for wanting to limit it. Lee brought his concern to a vote, and evidently others agreed with him.

Chief Tyrol's confused outbursts were highlights of the episode, and I feel they were portrayed very believably. It would seem that, more than losing Cally, with her death he's lost himself. Just as her identity as a pilot was holding Starbuck together in season 3, I fear that the Chief's (warranted) dismissal from his post will only facilitate his crisis.

You are probably very right. Tyrol has nothing left to hold onto other than his position as Chief, and now that he has been busted down to Specialist, he'll probably go off the deep end.

I think he just wanted to vent at Adama not really believing that Adama could really afford to loose him and replace him like that. He looked rather shocked to me...though I guess that could also be attributed to his outburst about Cally, yelling at Adama, or both. He just didn't look too relieved about being demoted.

This was a really strong episode that did not feel like filler at all - while last week’s did.

I would call this week's episode much stronger, but I don't think last week's was filler. It wasn't all that great, but it did progress the story, imo. This one had some great character introspection.