He That Believeth in Me (401)

[ToasterOnFire]

A nice premiere. Really, it's great to have BSG back period after a drought of over a year.

The intro battle was some great CGI and I liked the ironies and undertones between the revealed 4 and everyone else as well as the mystery surrounding Starbuck.

Some parts were slow though, especially the Baltar storyline. I'm really over having women fawn over Baltar. Meh. Was the guy who assaulted Baltar in the bathroom the resistance guy who played Ladon on SGA? I couldn't tell for sure.

I had two questions that didn't get answered on the TWOP boards:

1) How did Starbuck know where to find Roslin in the end? Was it common knowledge that the president was bunking in Adama's quarters (pardon my squee)? Are we to assume that she found her way in a cutscene? Or is the whole scene with Kara, Roslin, and the gun some kind of daydream like Tigh shooting Adama?

2) Starbuck winced and grabbed her head right after the fleet jumped, presumably moving them further from Earth. Roslin had a similar reaction after they jumped toward the end of Crossroads 2. Are these reactions related?

[Guest]

Starbuck went through the Stargate to reach Earth!

So that's what that big swirling cloud Starbuck flew into in S3 was

I thought it was a cool season premiere. the battle scenes were awesome and the story interesting. didn't like the Baltar storyline though, those people remind me too much of the telepaths in s5 of B5 (btw that was Leela Savasta right? ).

Indeed it was ...Yeah the whole Baltar thing is a bit confusing but I expect it will become more understadable as the season progresses...

anyway once again someone tries to kill him and he survives. no surprise imo. good to know how Kara feels about Cylon husbands LOL I thought it was interesting that Lee mentioned Zak, especially since some people suggested he might be the final Cylon. I guess Kara will convince Roslin and the fleet will head back to the nebula. looking forward to the next ep!

I bet Anders freaked a bit when Kara said that

Great Episode. That's why I love this show.

Now into medias res:
What do you think of the theory that the raiders are with the final five? I mean they have painted the pentagon (which's "penta" stands for the number Five in greek) on their wings + now they backed off after exchanging red glows with Anders...

That's a really good theory

[Arative]

'm not sure what to make of the final 5. We've seen no indication that any human cylon replaced an existing human, memories and all, so to me that means Tigh has always been a Cylon. Which means he was a cylon, when the original caprican cylons were chrome toasters. So where did he and the other 4 come from? I don't think that the chrome toasters created the human cylons.

The 7 don't know who the 5 are but know they exist and have been programed not to think about them. The raiders and I think the basestars are able to recognize the 5 and that's why they retreated. So who really controls the basestars and raiders? The 7 or some unknown force that predates the chrome toasters and the 7?

I'm sure that Kara is not cylon. If I remember correctly, the original series had some god-like white beings and they brought Starbuck back to life. I think who ever brought Kara back, with a new viper and all will be similar to these white beings from TOS.

Looking forward to the rest of the season.

[Actionhank]

'm not sure what to make of the final 5. We've seen no indication that any human cylon replaced an existing human, memories and all, so to me that means Tigh has always been a Cylon. Which means he was a cylon, when the original caprican cylons were chrome toasters. So where did he and the other 4 come from? I don't think that the chrome toasters created the human cylons.

Hmmm, what about "aging" anyways? How old are they really? This all happened and will happen again... Could be meant literally or what?
Maybe once every 100 years they are resetted and there we go again - they are already rebuilding Caprica you know. Or is it just one big mind frak? Because that's what life probably is.

[metabog]

I didn't know Jesus was so popular among the ladies...

I mean, he's banged pretty much every cylon, human, and imaginary chicks in the entire show!!!

What's his power, turn water into Viagra?!

And I can't believe yet another "to be continued"... Dammit I want more... NOW!!!

*clutches head and screams like Starbuck... but in a manly manner*

And that's why it's so interesting, he's turning from a womanbanging coward to a messiah.

[anotherquestion]

The beginning of the last season started out with both a bang and a whimper. Some moments were magical, others undercut the continuity of character for one of the principals, and one moment was simply cheating.

The cheating moment was the "vision" Saul had of shooting Adama. This seemed like a cheap carny trick to me, only included for shock value. As if we hadn't been anticipating the new material and revelations feverishly enough. This was entirely an outright manipulation of the audience and a major break in the compact between the shows writers and the viewers. We haven't see "take backs" like this. The closest thing I can remember is when Baltar saw Adama "drowning" little Hera in the stream on Kobol, but he was obviously in a fuge state at that time, and that vision was followed by several others that were meaningful in the larger arc of the story and also prophetic. Saul shooting the "old man" (if only in his dreams) was simply a cheap shot (pun kinda intended), unless the writers give us more and better rationale later on.

Baltar's uncharacteristic willingness to sacrifice himself totally betrayed what he has always been about, betrayal itself, for the sake of self preservation, and for its own sake. Wouldn't a better time for such nobility have come before he caved in to the Cylons on New Caprica and signed the death warrant for so many Colonials ? I mean this is the same sort of incident ("my boy was shot by one of your police") that he just stood trial for, crimes for which he showed no remorse, mounted a vigorous defense against, and had just conceived a plan for a follow up suit for damages, if I'm remembering correctly, which he wished to hatch with Rollo Lampkin. I don't think we saw any incident in the hours after the trial (which this episode represents) that could explain such a turnaround of character, even the viral infection of the other young boy (why is his life more important than the one snuffed out by his order?).

One small moment, not much observed or commented on, was the substitution of "One will be revealed" for "And they have a plan" in the opening mantra of the series. It seems likely the the revelation of the final Cylon is the culmination of the Cylon Plan. Although the teasers for next weeks episode tend to imply that the Cylons, are going to become more divided than ever, leading to the obvious question, "Whose plan is being played out?"

The words of the "first hybrid" from Razor were spoken from a perspective of timeless detachment ("this has all happened before and it will all happen again") that asserts a vison of fatalism and predestination, mingled with a contradictory admonition to Kendra, that Starbuck will lead to the end of the human race, intoned with the kind of emphasis that this would be an undesirable outcome from the hybrid's perspective. I suppose this could be a "last gasp" effort at misdirection toward Kendra, but, if things are happening in a big cycle of repetition, then what's the use of warnings of any kind? Destiny has a way of playing out with a grim repetitive spiral that swirls like the maelstrom that Kara plunged into.

One of the big moments was the loss of so many lives (the count of the living dipping below 40,000 for the first time) in the battle with the Cylons. Anders saved the fleet, and the teasers implied that he passed along more knowledge than his own nature, but that of the others in the "final five".

Another big moment was, of course, the return of Kara Thrace which also bordered on another "jump the shark" situation. How many times have we seen a series in which a principal character asserts secret and hidden knowledge that they possess but are not willing or able to fully disclose? This is the central plot premise for "Lost" and the "X files" among many others. A little bit of that goes a long way. Kara knows the way to Earth only by "feeling" when she is moving further away from it, which in three-dimensional space, does not seem very promising as a navigational vector. There would be uncounted headings that would move in a different direction leading closer to Earth, but never actually reaching it. So her "true knowledge" seems to be of limited value. So is her fear of "getting out of reach" of her sense of direction to Earth (she may not know where the fleet is going, but Gaeta does, and the fleet could easily jump back to where they came from without Starbuck's "help"). If they did reverse course, the the Starbuck Geiger counter could start clicking away again.

[scorp76]

Anyone wants to take bets Boomer knows that Galen and Sam are cylons. It looks like she comes over to 'check out if they are OK' after just being activated.

Arative - I'm sure that Kara is not cylon. If I remember correctly, the original series had some god-like white beings and they brought Starbuck back to life. I think who ever brought Kara back, with a new viper and all will be similar to these white beings from TOS. That's the Ship Of Lights where the angels are. Though we haven't seen the demon or devil yet like in the TOS but am sure one of the major characters will represent that being.

anotherquestion - Another big moment was, of course, the return of Kara Thrace which also bordered on another "jump the shark" situation. How many times have we seen a series in which a principal character asserts secret and hidden knowledge that they possess but are not willing or able to fully disclose? This is the central plot premise for "Lost" and the "X files" among many others. A little bit of that goes a long way. Kara knows the way to Earth only by "feeling" when she is moving further away from it, which in three-dimensional space, does not seem very promising as a navigational vector. There would be uncounted headings that would move in a different direction leading closer to Earth, but never actually reaching it. So her "true knowledge" seems to be of limited value. So is her fear of "getting out of reach" of her sense of direction to Earth (she may not know where the fleet is going, but Gaeta does, and the fleet could easily jump back to where they came from without Starbuck's "help"). If they did reverse course, the the Starbuck Geiger counter could start clicking away again. I think Kara was indicating that once severed from the connection she is forever severed.

[wiseowl777]

i rewatched the ep right before pixis goes up you hear seelix call sam "hardball" and sam calls seellix "longshot"

so i'm assuming it must me there calls sighs

-awesome catch rite there!... and it makes sense with celix being the 1 not allowed to become a pilot originally bc her "job was too important" and then sam with the obvious pyramid/basketball thingy

[wiseowl777]

everyone keeps talking about these ships or of light... i never watched the original series bc i couldnt see past the walls of the womb, but i doubt that theyd suddenly at the end throw in some being with advanced powers or technology.

to, me theres something even bigger going on thats obviously yet to be revealed. i mean we have 3 people here, who's best explainations are that they are cylons. if there is infact only 1 left then how do u explain the other 2? laura's visions, baltars visions and amazing guesses that are the work of god and then kara's resurrection with a shiney new viper. 2, not even 1!, need to be explained w/o the "tehy were really a cylon" trick... and who knows if neither of the 3 are, then wat the frak is going on?

-i did like what some1 had b4 abt the raiders maybe being on the side of the final 5. perhaps, since they are "alive", they sided with the 5, who eventually were defeated/exiled/beilieved killed, and now that they have proof of their existence there will be infighting and revolution among them. perhaps, their lack of knowledge that they were cylons was the only way to protect themseleves from the other faction (kinda liek ur ori/alteran rift), and then the only thing the 5 could do to futher their own safety was to enter that do not recognize programming into their "basecode"?

-for the person who said that athena acted like she recognized him... i think that was moore frakin with us again, i mean even though neither of them were switched on, cheif and boomer didnt sense anything (even when boomer told cheif she thought she was a cylon), and sam and tori didnt sense anything either, b4 the switch on, so i really do think that they cant sense them sense them... just maybe the 6 is different.

-for ppl that believed that these 4 were only thinking they are cylons, when they could be hybrids, or messengers or have some other role that made them come to the incorrect conclusion that they were cylons.... i was on that boat with ya... but ever since that glowy thing went of in sam's head, how does 1 not say hes not a cylon and that the other 3 are any different from him?


-the thing that bothers me... currently stationed randomly up to the heads of whoever that were killed in the attacks, how did tigh, boomer and chief end up stationed on the same ship, the "only 1" that happened to survive the attacks? not to mention, if the 5th has been a galatica member all along thats still 4! then just so happens that sam and the other guy (tour guide from the start), ended up on that same ship as well?... i mean pegasus had 1.. why did galactica end up with 5. (id include deanna, 6, and leoben.. but they coulda been placed in the surviving fleet during some time of confusion)... just crazy random odds wouldnt ya think?

[wiseowl777]

-the whole... all this has happened before thing i think will also be the decieder... perhaps;
1st every1 lived on kobol... then they made machines that destroyed each other, planet was nuked and they had to leave.
they found 12 colonies settled, but the earth ppl, were really pissed and said see ya well be fine on our own. now they built machines, get nuked and go off on their own to find earth setting up yet another repeat...
-i think thats a logical explaination... and for the time period we get there... id say the past... around 2000 yrs ago, perhaps after they land, with ships in orbit, cylons come and the fleet ends up "sacrificing itself" as well as whoever stayed up on this ships this time (bc after the last time i think theyll think 2x abt settling) and most of the fleet is destroyed, except baltar and his crazy followers who do what they do best and hid. ... so they live and as many said b4 me baltar= jesus... and then we bring ourselves to well.. today!

[wiseowl777]

i know thats like more than 1 theory on the show, but please, shoot them down, add to them, watever, id actually like to read some thoughts... after all thats what this whole threads for, right?

[Pharaoh Atem]

i loved how lee nearly tackles kara ....after they makes it back to the ship and having a tear in his eye after doing so.

[turtlesstartedit]

SERIOUSLY... What happened to the creepy "cylon music" that immediately preceeds #6 when she appears in Baltar's head? Did they get a new music editor? Did they forget that they used to do that? Am I the only one whoever noticed the auditory cue that she was going to appear? Does it mean something?

Kudos to the person that noticed that if Tigh is a Cylon, then Tigh was a Cylon during the 1st Cylon War when the Cylon's were only toasters! How can that be?

Personally, I started watching this show because of the crazy, sexual hallucinations of Baltar, and he remains my favorite character. However, I have noticed that all the characters are just as complexly written and full of contradictions as Baltar. CGI has never impressed me; I watch this show for its writing and acting. For the record, I went from a casual observer watching for Baltar/#6 to a dedicated fan during the season finale of the 1st season. I was totally suckered in... I kept waiting for plot complications, but it seemed like everything was going the colonists' way. I finally gave up, and figured that there wasn't going to be a cliff-hanger, and then Boomer shot the old man! I was totally blindsided, and artistically the producers did it in such a way that you never saw it coming... I was hooked!

My own take on Baltar is that once he was vindicated, he discovered that most people still didn't like him and wanted him dead. Instead of feeling set free by the verdict, he felt more alienated and alone. The irony is not lost on him that he was safer when he was on trial for his life. His willingness to sacrifice his life for the boys is still classic Baltar. BALTAR IS (AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN) A MORAL COWARD; HIS WILLINGNESS TO DIE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SAVING THE BOY AND IS STILL ALL ABOUT HIM. BALTAR IS SCARED TO CONTINUE LIVING IN THIS NEW SITUATION HE HAS FOUND HIMSELF IN, SO HIS COWARDINESS IS COMING THROUGH AS A DESIRE TO STOP FIGHTING AND DIE. During the trial, Baltar was so focused on winning and defeating his adversaries that he never bothered to ask himself whether his life was worth living. Baltar is still the same Baltar: he has only shaved and changed clothes! Baltar is nothing if not an opportunistic surviver! (Even if he is filled with self-loathing and a desire to die...) Remember: Baltar has not told his "followers" anything he truly believes or has discovered on his own. He is only repeating the words of #6.

Which brings me back to the "creepy Cylon" music that used to precede the appearing of #6 in Baltar's head. Someone please comment, explain, or at least tell me I'm not the only one who noticed this...

[Pharaoh Atem]

i didn't notice it i've watched the ep 8 times and i still hadn't noticed it untill you posted that.

it might be a foreshadowing

[Jeffala]

Spoiler:

I felt worse by watching Lee, Adama and Roslin adviced by 3 cylons (Chief, Tigh and Tory

Spoiler:

I loved that bit. Especially when you think back and remember that three (Tyrol, Tigh, Anders) were also the leaders of the resistance on New Caprica.

Idea: I think maybe the Cylon "God" has some sort of plan and to achieve that plan, he created 12 humanoid cylons. 7 were programmed to destroy humanity and 4 (or 5) were programmed to save it. The two groups would eventually wind up bringing that plan to fruition. This plan would have to be something other than humanity's complete destruction, but something important enough that it wouldn't mind that billions of humans were killed in order to achieve that goal.


If only 4 were programmed to save humanity, I'm not sure what the fifth's purpose is.