Battlestar Galactica: Razor

[SoulReaver]

I've wondered before how things might have gone differently on Pegasus had there been someone like Tigh, Helo or Lee around. You're dead on about the spineless cast of underlings Cain had working for her. She never would have managed to pull half the stuff she did had she not had so many willing lackies to help carry out her every order no matter how increasingly crazy they got. Adama even talks about this. About how he never went down that road maybe because he knew there were just too many people around him he'd have to face after he did.

We know from last week's ep that the colonial fleet does have a section of the rulebook that allows for the commanding officer to be relieved and presumably brigged if they start going bat****. So the means to get rid of Cain without resorting to something like murder was not only available but the duty of her subordinates to carry out. In not doing so they neglected their duty as colonial officers in not relieving a commanding officer who had obviously lost her grip on reason.

It's also worth pointing out that Shaw was in some ways just as bad as Cain. Even Fisk was begining to doubt things when Cain ordered them to kill those civillians and you could see that maybe this was finally going to be the line he wouldn't cross but then Shaw starts the massacre off.

Her I don't get. I get why Cain went nuts, I don't get her.

well yeah they were all just as bad as Cain. only Cain was the one in charge
IMO the pPegasus is reminiscent of that mirror universe in Star Trek (TOS), ie. the Pegasus would be the evil counterpart of the Galactica. perhaps the writers did intend some subtle reference to that ST ep

it's simple, Shaw was just another minion, just as spineless (later on long after Cain was dead she made a spectacular U-turn & started giving herself a "rebelz" image, probably in some attempt to allay her conscience or convince herself she'd grown a spine & wasn't that weak). Cain had such an influence on her that as far as she was concerned, everything Cain said had to be right
however although she did fire the first shot (her only shot), all the other troopers did most of the shooting - plus Fisk was still the officer in command in that group, so he could've prevented all of it (heck he should've put a stop to it even back when Cain shot her XO). and it's not like he reprimanded her after the shootings, on the contrary his attitude was more like a 'well done !' stance
furthermore that civie guy (can't remember his name, he's an astrophysicist or something) could've used better arguments - for example reminded Fisk that his foremost duty was to follow the oath he & the others had taken to protect the 12 colonies, instead of just saying something vague like 'you're supposed to protect us !'



aye, 10 to 1 if it had been Tigh instead of Fisk, he'd have had Cain relieved of command & tossed in the brig pronto. he may not be an angel (far from it, cf. New Caprica) but he does have a sense of duty & he certainly ain't a coward



I remember that part about Adama saying he never went down that road because of his entourage, but I doubt he meant he'd have gone all the way like Cain did. this would like completely contradict that speech of his back in the miniseries, about being "worthy of survival". it would be almost like a retcon on the writers' part......

maybe he'd have just ignored the fleet & run along instea dof taking them under military protection. it would still have been a violation of his duty, but nowhere near what Cain did

[Ouroboros]

well yeah they were all just as bad as Cain. only Cain was the one in charge
IMO the pPegasus is reminiscent of that mirror universe in Star Trek (TOS), ie. the Pegasus would be the evil counterpart of the Galactica. perhaps the writers did intend some subtle reference to that ST ep

it's simple, Shaw was just another minion, just as spineless (later on long after Cain was dead she made a spectacular U-turn & started giving herself a "rebelz" image, probably in some attempt to allay her conscience or convince herself she'd grown a spine & wasn't that weak). Cain had such an influence on her that as far as she was concerned, everything Cain said had to be right
however although she did fire the first shot (her only shot), all the other troopers did most of the shooting - plus Fisk was still the officer in command in that group, so he could've prevented all of it (heck he should've put a stop to it even back when Cain shot her XO). and it's not like he reprimanded her after the shootings, on the contrary his attitude was more like a 'well done !' stance
furthermore that civie guy (can't remember his name, he's an astrophysicist or something) could've used better arguments - for example reminded Fisk that his foremost duty was to follow the oath he & the others had taken to protect the 12 colonies, instead of just saying something vague like 'you're supposed to protect us !'

I would take it even further with Shaw. She was worse than the others to me because she seemed to actually idolize the crazy version of Cain for some stupid reason. She didn't even know Cain for a full day before she went off the deep end so it wasn't simple loyalty, she only knew her as the loony toons version that came after the attacks. The others probably followed mostly out of fear but she followed because she wanted to. She almost propped Cain up in a way, encouraging her to get crazier and not stop to doubt herself. Remember the scene following the attack on the staging area where even Cain comments on the waste of resources for a "tactically insignificant victory" but Shaw basically tells her to cheer up because they "put the enemy on notice". It's almost like she's got Cain on some bizzare pedastal already and doesn't want to see her doubt herself or the rightness of her actions/admit she made mistakes.

aye, 10 to 1 if it had been Tigh instead of Fisk, he'd have had Cain relieved of command & tossed in the brig pronto. he may not be an angel (far from it, cf. New Caprica) but he does have a sense of duty & he certainly ain't a coward

Remember Tigh's reaction to the shooting of those civillians back a season or so ago when he was in command. "You shot them for throwing coffee?" you could tell how mortified he was. I've always liked Tigh, there's just something about him that makes you want to cheer for the guy. While we're talking about quality acting mind as well throw a mention Michael Hogan's way because I think his has been some of the consistantly best in the entire series.

As for Cain though one thing that always got me was how she stayed in charge for so long. I get that in ordinary circumstances her crew might be reluctant to stand up to her out of fear but that fear is more fear of the "Admiral" and not the "Cain". That's to say they're more afraid of what will happen to them if they mutiny in terms of punishments that might be handed down by the military. The military was destroyed though, they literally answered to nobody. They could have got together and said "ok time to frag this crazy ***** before she kills us all" and there would have been no consequences forthcoming for doing so. It's testament to the hold she had over them, or their own cowardice, that they never realized this. That or they just followed her because they were clinging to the idea that they were still "officers in the colonial fleet" but even that should have led them to relieve her of command like Helo did with Starbuck. Maybe Fisk and company knew that even crazy she was still a much more effective commander than them? They didn't want her job because it was just too much for any of them to want to handle given the situation? Still amounts to cowardice though, if they kept her around because they thought her skills as a commander would keep their skins intact longer than they could manage alone.

I remember that part about Adama saying he never went down that road because of his entourage, but I doubt he meant he'd have gone all the way like Cain did. this would like completely contradict that speech of his back in the miniseries, about being "worthy of survival". it would be almost like a retcon on the writers' part......

maybe he'd have just ignored the fleet & run along instea dof taking them under military protection. it would still have been a violation of his duty, but nowhere near what Cain did

I think he was just trying to understand what happened on Pegasus and wondered if the same thing could have happened to him. He never knew about Cain's childhood Cylon trauma so he was missing an important piece of information to explain her breakdown.

He was about to do the same "this is a war and we're going to fight it because it's our duty" thing in the minisries as her though. It was Roslin who stopped him and made him see the reality that the war had already been lost.

[SoulReaver]

who was the worst between Shaw & Fisk ? IMO hard to tell -

- one was a minion who acted out of both fear & misguided loyalty and tried to convince herself that what she was doing was ok. of course autosuggestion does not exonerate a criminal (unless they are 100% truly convinced that they are right, which would mean 1 of 2 things : either they've been brainwashed, or their brains are ****ed up) because deep down she knew she was wrong

- the other acted only out of fear. as XO he also had more authority than his subordinates to put an end to this. doing something wrong or being an accomplice whilst fully aware at each instant that what you're doing is wrong is also an aggravating circumstance. more so when you can easily prevent this in the 1st place


all in all I say the entire Pegasus crew was at fault - it changes little whether they acquiesced out of fear or plain selfishness (self-preservation at all costs even if it meant sacrificing innocents : imagine a military version of Baltar (hard to imagine ain't it - but try :-) especially the Baltar we got to know at the beginning of the series : I don't think he'd have been much better than the rest of the Pegasus troopers)




I agree about Michael Hogan while the outstanding performance of the entire cast is indisputable (James Callis, EDO, Tricia Helfer & all the rest, bar none) and their acting top notch (easily on par with SG1) I say there's something extra about Michael Hogan which places him even above the rest, I just can't say what it is is it merely charisma ? I dunno, Bill Adama is also a charismatic leader in his own right...so it's more than that, there has to be something else..

I mean hey, Tigh is the bloke who was willing to bomb an entire market chock full of civies back on New Caprica yet I'm almost willing to forgive him for this ! (almost)

this to say Tigh's may not be my favourite character but Michael Hogan is my favourite actor & he definitely steals the show

ok so Tricia Helfer steals the show for other more evident reasons, being an actress with whose assets even Hogan cannot compete but Hogan is still the best actor

[Prometheus X-303]

I found this very impactful. I like 3 characters in this... Admiral Helena Cain,
Kendra Show and this Xo who was shot by Cain.

[Integrabyte]

Shaw was Cain's legacy.

[s72450]

I very much agree with Forbes' amazing acting in this movie, she definatly had me begging the tv for her to not go bad and become the Cain we saw in Season Two.

I also very much loved that she and Gina were more than just friends, it made the reveal of her being a cylon that much more heartbreaking.

[Kezia]

I very much agree with Forbes' amazing acting in this movie, she definatly had me begging the tv for her to not go bad and become the Cain we saw in Season Two.

I also very much loved that she and Gina were more than just friends, it made the reveal of her being a cylon that much more heartbreaking.

Well said, Razor really brought another dimension to the Pegasus arc in S2 by adding the backstory.

[SgaIsBad]

I would love a Pegasus show to itself. Hopefully Caprica does well so we can see more BSG!

[Pharaoh Atem]

I would love a Pegasus show to itself. Hopefully Caprica does well so we can see more BSG!

but until the attacks happen Peggy wasn't doing much so there wouldn't be any good material for a series

unless it's AU and Peggy survived Exodus

[Dusk]

Why didn't senior officers place Cain under military arrest for killing her ExO? And that was just the beginning of her rogue behaviour. I think the whole damn ship was up the quack, all of them mentally unstable vigilantes.

If something like this happened in our military society, what do you think the situation would be?

And whilst yes, I agree that Forbes did very well in this role, her acting was pulled down by Jacobsen's awful portrayal of Kendra Shaw. The character should have had more passion, more of a personality, instead of being as stiff as a wet tea towel on an icy clothesline.

Cain's backstory also lends nothing to justify her barbarism. And it's painful to hear Adama attempt to downplay Cain's actions by comparing them to the bad calls Galactica has made since the attacks. But when you put them side by side, the actions of Pegasus are shameful, inhumane, and unforgivable.

[Ouroboros]

Why didn't senior officers place Cain under military arrest for killing her ExO? And that was just the beginning of her rogue behaviour. I think the whole damn ship was up the quack, all of them mentally unstable vigilantes.

They were afraid of her. With the exception of the guy she shot in the face all of the Pegasus senior officers couldn't come up with half the stones she had by adding all theirs together.

If Shaw's assignment is anything to go by it could be because the pegasus was largely used as a vehicle for various privileged individuals to get some military service on their resume. If we go with that though it calls into question why Cain's there.

Cain's backstory also lends nothing to justify her barbarism. And it's painful to hear Adama attempt to downplay Cain's actions by comparing them to the bad calls Galactica has made since the attacks. But when you put them side by side, the actions of Pegasus are shameful, inhumane, and unforgivable.

I think the backstory in the extended cut is there more to explain rather than justify. It explains why she cracked when the Cylons attacked and why she was never going to entertain running away from them again as an option. It's a big improvement on the original cut in any case, where no explanation or backstory on her at all is given.

[thevarrior]

Why so much dislike of this movie? I thoroughly enjoyed it. I liked seeing the old Cylon models come back as an enemy. It was a good tribute to the original series and they managed to make something that looked ridiculous look menacing and frightening. The cutscenes that were added into the extended version were AMAZING. I nearly crapped my pants when I saw Adama fall out of the sky in an aerial battle with a Centurion.

I liked Kendra Shaw's character, Jacobsen was a great actress. The only weak point of the movie was how little they showed of the other civilian fleet found by the Pegasus. It would have shown Cain's action to be far more barbaric in leaving them behind if they had been, say, as big as the Galactica fleet.

[Ouroboros]

It was a good movie to be sure. I think it's just a lot of people get spoiled by BSG because it's so often so much better than what us sci-fi fans are typically used to good that when it slips back down a bit you get reactions that sound like people don't like it.

In this case especially you've got a continuation of the whole Pegasus/Resurection ship mini story arc which was probably one of, if not the best arcs the show's ever had. I think people just expected a little bit more than what we got. I know for me personally I was expecting some sort of twist or new information that would show us viewers the subtle but important differences between the stories that were told after the fact about what went down on pegasus and how things actually went down objectively. Something to account for different people's different perspectives and show how their individual experiences coloured how they thought of that part of the past. What we got though was basically just all of the events that we were told about by drunken Fisk played out exactly as they were told previously.

The extended cut improves things by at least giving some backstory to Cain that can be used to explain her actions but in the original cut the total absence of any of that is really obviously missed from the plot.

I think in the end what hurt Razor the most, and again I'm not saying it's bad, is that they tried to also shoehorn in this second story about the ship with the hybrid that took place in the present. If you look around though at various threads and forums it'll become quickly apparent that not nearly as many people talk about any of that stuff aside from the cryptic talk the hybrid gives at the end. The trouble becomes then that that present day stuff is actually the A plot of the movie, with the Pegasus flashbacks being relegated to the role of the B plot, even though it's the pegasus flashbacks that the audience watching this is probably going to be more interested in.

The hybrid story really should have been saved for a later episode of it's own. One that tied into the webisodes. Razor, the movie, should have focussed just on telling the pegasus story, with maybe some very minimal present day scenes just to frame it out and give the regular cast a chance to appear. For example you could rewind time a bit and have Lee Adama and Starbuck getting him settled into his new quarters on the Pegasus, which used to belong to Cain, and in the course of clearing out her former belongings they find the Razor and various other personal effects and the two of them start to talk about her what went on on the pegasus before it joined the fleet. You could tell the whole story then as a sort of discussion/reflection by these two characters. Position starbuck as being more sympathetic to Cain since she was shown to previously have something of a connection with the Admiral and Lee as more repulsed by what they did since that again, is more consistant with his established character. The whole thing would then present itself as a question to the viewer, one without an easy clearcut answer.

The ending we did get was rather bizarre in that sense in that it seems to be trying to tell the audience through Adama that Cain was at least somewhat justfied and rational, all be it cold, in what she did, where as the actual content of the movie itself shows completely the opposite.

[thevarrior]

It was a good movie to be sure. I think it's just a lot of people get spoiled by BSG because it's so often so much better than what us sci-fi fans are typically used to good that when it slips back down a bit you get reactions that sound like people don't like it.

That's a very good point. High standards will be the death of us

In this case especially you've got a continuation of the whole Pegasus/Resurection ship mini story arc which was probably one of, if not the best arcs the show's ever had. I think people just expected a little bit more than what we got. I know for me personally I was expecting some sort of twist or new information that would show us viewers the subtle but important differences between the stories that were told after the fact about what went down on pegasus and how things actually went down objectively. Something to account for different people's different perspectives and show how their individual experiences coloured how they thought of that part of the past. What we got though was basically just all of the events that we were told about by drunken Fisk played out exactly as they were told previously.

Right, which I think disappointed a lot of people. Maybe if Fisk had exaggerated a bit, it would have been more interesting, although personally I loved watching it play out. Just the whole scene where the Cylons are attacking, he refuses, takes his sidearm, and blasts his head off, I was going "oh frak, oh frak" because I KNEW what was coming, but was hoping it wouldn't come to that.

The extended cut improves things by at least giving some backstory to Cain that can be used to explain her actions but in the original cut the total absence of any of that is really obviously missed from the plot.

I will agree with that, the aired version was terrible. If the full film with all the cutscenes had been included, I think it would have been better appreciated. Particularly the one where Cain's sister gets abducted, and it shows the city/slum on Tauron blasted to rubble.

I think in the end what hurt Razor the most, and again I'm not saying it's bad, is that they tried to also shoehorn in this second story about the ship with the hybrid that took place in the present. If you look around though at various threads and forums it'll become quickly apparent that not nearly as many people talk about any of that stuff aside from the cryptic talk the hybrid gives at the end. The trouble becomes then that that present day stuff is actually the A plot of the movie, with the Pegasus flashbacks being relegated to the role of the B plot, even though it's the pegasus flashbacks that the audience watching this is probably going to be more interested in.

Really? I thought that was one of the strongest aspects of the film. Not only did it serve as a great nod to the original series by portraying the old-style Cylons and Raiders and Basestars and such, it served to advance the plot significantly. It's where we first hear about Kara Thrace as the harbinger of doom who will lead the humans and cylons to their end. And to boot it had a good plot, with the rescue of the scientists. I do agree that it didn't seem to really enhance the Pegasus storyline, but the movie to me is more about Kendra Shaw than it is about the Pegasus.

The ending we did get was rather bizarre in that sense in that it seems to be trying to tell the audience through Adama that Cain was at least somewhat justfied and rational, all be it cold, in what she did, where as the actual content of the movie itself shows completely the opposite.

Well, that's a big theme in the show, isn't it? Our leaders are not always the best people, but they think that what they're doing is the best course of action - and Cain was emblematic of that. She believed that by sending vipers on suicide missions to destroy minor targets was hitting a nasty blow to them and that the sacrifice of many pilots was worth it. She didn't think about the fact that the human race was essentially running into it's own doom.

[Mongoletsi]

If Shaw's assignment is anything to go by it could be because the pegasus was largely used as a vehicle for various privileged individuals to get some military service on their resume. If we go with that though it calls into question why Cain's there.

I got the impression that Cain was some kind of "Star protege", and hence had landed command of a flagship on the basis of her political nouse.