Roslin's Dictatorship

[Ulysses 31]

Hi, I'm a new member and I don't know anyone who watchs BSG down here in Australia. So I joined this forum because I just watched 2x17 and 2x18 and I need to vent.

I don't know how anyone can unconditionally worship Roslin after watching 2x17 The Captain's Hand and 2x18 Downloaded. I absolutely despised her in these episodes -- she was totalitarian and utterly unlikeable. Worse, she was hypocritical. As much as I disliked what Baltar represented in 2x17, I actually cheered for him when he stood up against Roslin and declared he was running for Presidency. The look on Roslin's face (and that of her nauseating new aide) was priceless. Executive power really has gone to Roslin's head and it's changed her for the worse. Actually, I'd say Baltar's curing her cancer was a turning point -- she's become very dictatorial. And that's brilliant character development on Moore's behalf, and great of McDonnell to run with it.

And sadly, I really lost a lot of respect for Adama in these episodes, especially in 2x18. At least in 2x17, he debated Roslin's orders (the "populate or die" line he threw back in Roslin's face), but in 2x18 he just obeyed orders like a trained dog. That was disappointing.

The Geminese teen who had the abortion -- Maya could have adopted her baby. But Roslin put the needs of the one (her own, really) above the needs of the many. Yes, I'm a fan of Spock -- "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one." Another factor which made me dislike Roslin in 2x17 -- the father was never mentioned. Not a single word. Not once did Roslin ask who the father was and how he felt about the situation. No one did. That's disappointing.

Anyways, I really don't understand why people hero worship Roslin. I agree, when she's good she's really good, but when she's bad ... she becomes the monster she wants to defeat. And like the matriarchs of Greek myth, she can be truly monstrous.

Ronald D Moore is a genius. I started out on the Galactica, a proud and loyal crewmember who adored Adama and the new President Roslin. But the more I see of Roslin's dictatorial methods, the less I like what she represents. And the more I see of Caprica Six and Caprica Sharon (and especially Helo and Galactica Sharon) ... well, my allegiances have turned inside out. I'm now rooting for the breakaway Cylon faction established by Caprica 6 and Sharon in Downloaded. Go go go Cylon love!

Thank you Ron for giving us such a wonderful show that makes us think with our hearts and feel with our minds.

And as an Australian, I feel weird using the word "rooting" in its American sense.

[takinspace]

Dude, you're gonna love the end of S2 and what's going on in S3. Beyond that I can't say a danged thing without ruining it so enjoy the ride!!!

[Ulysses 31]

I'm almost there talkinspace! Just the season two finale to go and then I'm on to season three. I've got a vague idea where the show will be taken, and what will happen to Roslin and Baltar and the Fleet. I'm hoping there'll be an abolishment of Executive Power and the establishment of a council ala the UN (as it was intended back in post-WWII, not what it's become today), but that's my idealism and I know how much Moore loves to turn that inside out.

As for Roslin, I can understand why she's become so totalitarian. She lost Billy, the one person close enough to her who could openly disagree with her and make her question her decisions. That was a big loss and pushed Roslin to the dark side. The other is Adama's rigid military code of obedience -- he respects her too much, and the system they've fought to rebuild, to openly oppose her decisions. So she no longer gets a counterbalance view. And then there's Baltar and Zarek, but she'll never listen to them because she dislikes and distrusts them both (probably for good reason!). Her new aide is as robotic and clinical as a cylon. Roslin betrayed the religious faction of the fleet when she allowed the abortion, which hurt her deeply because of the whole prophecy thing. Now she's pretty much alone. Sucks to be president.

I'm enjoying the ride indeed! If only my torrents would download faster.

[daniel9]

lol u know u should really look for these underground sites that have the eps up for download that way u can get smaller file sizes and such. anyway just forget i said that since its not to be talked about. hm yea rosslins presidency does seem like a dictator ship. but at the end of season2 and start of season 3

Spoiler:

baltar's presidency is like he is the type of president that could care less about u. at least except when the cylons are forcing his hand to sign kiling orders. baltar's presidency was bad becuz what rosslin said in the letter was true about him if he were to be pres.... bak to rosslin if u think she was doing a dictatorship in season 2 just wait til u see how she is in the season 3 eps

lol i only put it in spoilers becuz this person has yet to see the eps at the end of season2 and start of 3.

[*E*K*R*]

althought i like roslin, i have to admit I didn't like how she...

Spoiler:

got her presidency back in s3... she bacially said to zarek, 'you can't be president coz bill doesn't like you... hmmm? also she's being a bit too hypocritical this season

[Dutch_Razor]

You shall see wether or not you like Baltar after the end of S2, that's all im gonna say.

[LiquidBlue]

I am glad this thread exists, and on the front page no less. I was going to start a thread with nearly the same title.

I am watching Season 3 now, and every time I see her I become angry.

Spoiler:

Laura Roslin only had power due to a very tenuous legal argument. I say tenuous because as the fleet left the sovereign territories of the the 12 colonies, they left the sphere of control of the civilian government.

She was grudging given this power, due to the refugees desire to retain some aspects of their former civilization.

But we should remember that she never stood for election. Which is fine.

However, what happens when her term is up and she stands for election? She tries to rig the process, and illegally maintain her position and power. Remember this is from a person whose power originally came from a tenuous legal argument. That is to say, she respects the law only when it suits her, but is willing to work out side the law in order to maintain and enhance her power.

The military discovers her attempt to fix the election, and forces her step down when the election goes the other way.

Let us now skip to the escape from New Caprica. Zarek, who had stood election and won the vice presidency, becomes the president. While he might not be the most sympathetic character, he is the popularly elected vice-president and opposed the Cylons to the point that they kept him imprisioned the entire occupation (compare that to Laura Roslin's freedom during the same period.)

Despite the fact that Zarek is the president, Roslin takes possesion of the colonial government ship that has been the president's ship since the mini-series. She then threatens Zarek into making her the Vice-president, followed by his immediate resignation, making her once again the President, once again without standing for popular election.

In conclusion we have a woman who lost the only popular election for which she stood. Who has now twice become president without standing for election. Who is willing to deceive the electorate and rig an election. Who is willing to use her military connections to force the resignation of the legal president, a man who did win a popular election.

Ugh.

[[email protected]]

Yeah, I think she's probably a dictator. I also think that they put a land mine in the show by just putting her right back into power, even though nobuddy else stepped up. Thats one of those little "Twists."

So I guesse when they put her into power again that was her "re-election"????? Was it???

It seems that in the 3rd seasons arc there will be a lot of little land mines popping up. You've allready seen this when Bill Adama told her to order him to use the germ warfare tactic.

I think there will be a lot of questions to be answered. Like what happens when Baltar comes back????

Well to another day in paradise.

[Hatcheter]

I am glad this thread exists, and on the front page no less. I was going to start a thread with nearly the same title.

Or better yet, the mods could merge this thread with the one started four days ago about the exact same thing.

Spoiler:

Anyway, I think you’ve forgotten some key details from the miniseries and season one. As well as little things like the rule of law.

I am watching Season 3 now, and every time I see her I become angry.


Laura Roslin only had power due to a very tenuous legal argument. I say tenuous because as the fleet left the sovereign territories of the the 12 colonies, they left the sphere of control of the civilian government.

She was grudging given this power, due to the refugees desire to retain some aspects of their former civilization.

Roslin was sworn in as President before she even met up with Galactica. There was a call put out for all government ministers to check in, and it was found that she was the highest ranking survivor in government. She was sworn in as President in full obedience to the law of the Colonies, while still within the territory of the Colonies. Once the fleet was formed and on the move, she was the legal civilian leader. That didn't cease to matter because they were headed into the great unknown.

But we should remember that she never stood for election. Which is fine.

However, what happens when her term is up and she stands for election? She tries to rig the process, and illegally maintain her position and power. Remember this is from a person whose power originally came from a tenuous legal argument. That is to say, she respects the law only when it suits her, but is willing to work out side the law in order to maintain and enhance her power.

The military discovers her attempt to fix the election, and forces her step down when the election goes the other way.

Well, considering she tried to steal an election from a traitor who’s only campaign issue was a dangerous colonization plan, she probably wasn’t in the wrong there. You know, since she was losing to a traitor who had already sold out the human race once before.

Let us now skip to the escape from New Caprica. Zarek, who had stood election and won the vice presidency, becomes the president. While he might not be the most sympathetic character, he is the popularly elected vice-president and opposed the Cylons to the point that they kept him imprisioned the entire occupation (compare that to Laura Roslin's freedom during the same period.)

Despite the fact that Zarek is the president, Roslin takes possesion of the colonial government ship that has been the president's ship since the mini-series. She then threatens Zarek into making her the Vice-president, followed by his immediate resignation, making her once again the President, once again without standing for popular election.

Vice President Zarek was obviously heading off to another ship during the evacuation. He was armed and giving orders, so I assume he was carrying out a part of the evacuation plan (which mean he was probably following Tigh's orders at that moment). Roslin had been involved in the resistance while he had been imprisoned, so that, plus her own past leadership, gave her enough authority to lead a group on Colonial One. By Zarek’s reaction, I wonder if he and others might have written the ship off, since it was the center of the Cylon’s government.


Afterwards, Adama promised the military wouldn’t be supportive of his leadership. The military is a political faction within the fleet, perhaps the most important since they are the backbone and the shield of the fleet. Zarek could have fought, but he willingly stepped aside. From things seen in past seasons, he’s clearly a polarizing figure, and I think it’s likely he would have had many political enemies, in the military as well as the Quorum, the press, and the general population

Also, Zarek had the Presidency due to a campaign based on colonization. With the only issue that got him to the office a complete disaster, his mandate was void. Roslin had campaigned on keeping the fleet moving, and now that they were in that position again, she was the one most knowledgeable and capable of leading it. Zarek knew this, as he stepped aside for her quite willingly. Not only that, he tried to do some of the dirty work he felt was necessary before leaving, in order to protect her once she took office. Overall, I think it was a big step of character development for him.

In conclusion we have a woman who lost the only popular election for which she stood. Who has now twice become president without standing for election. Who is willing to deceive the electorate and rig an election. Who is willing to use her military connections to force the resignation of the legal president, a man who did win a popular election.

She didn’t stand for popular election, but she was voted into office this time. The Quorum had to approve of her taking the Vice Presidency, and I suspect that Zarek told them the full plan first. Otherwise, the Quorum and the populace would be calling shenanigans. And there can’t be shenaniganry in the office of the Presidency.

[takinspace]

Hey! People! Throw some spoiler tags around the S3 details for the sake of Ulysses 31, who started this thread??? He hasn't gotten that far yet! See first post!

[Legionnaire]

Tom Zarek for president! And Baltar forever!!!

[LiquidBlue]

Spoiler:

Anyway, I think you’ve forgotten some key details from the miniseries and season one. As well as little things like the rule of law.

I am certainly open to being reminded of points that I have missed. I am however confused when you state that I have forgotten the rule of law. In fact, I think that it was my point that Laura Roslin came to power through the colonial's respect for the rule of law, but that she is willing act illegaly in order to maitain her power.

Roslin was sworn in as President before she even met up with Galactica. There was a call put out for all government ministers to check in, and it was found that she was the highest ranking survivor in government. She was sworn in as President in full obedience to the law of the Colonies, while still within the territory of the Colonies. Once the fleet was formed and on the move, she was the legal civilian leader. That didn't cease to matter because they were headed into the great unknown.

I certainly agree that this is what happened. What I meant by tenuous legal argument, is that though she may have been the legal president of the colonies, the fleet left the colonies. The fleet left the sovereign territories of the colonies. That is to say, the colonial government did not have sovereignty over the fleet.

Well, considering she tried to steal an election from a traitor who’s only campaign issue was a dangerous colonization plan, she probably wasn’t in the wrong there. You know, since she was losing to a traitor who had already sold out the human race once before.

Wow. I guess you don't think much of Baltar. Certainly he is probably not worth much respect, but not for those reasons. (1) Baltar did not sell out humanity. I think that that would require that heunderstand the consequence of his actions, or at least that he be aware that he was working with the cylons. As far as he was aware, he was helping his girlfriend's company get an edge over the competition. Hugely illegal and morally bankrupt? Yes. Selling out humanity to the cylons? I don't think so. (2) Dangerous colonization plan? In fact the only way the Cylon found new Caprica was due to the bomb detonated by Gina. I fail to see how the colonization plan was substantially more dangerous that the locate earth plan. In fact, I believe that it could be seen as much less dangerous.

Anyway, to your point that the necessity of keeping Baltar from office justified illegal actions. At this point I recalled my confusion that you thought I had forgotten the rule of law. I think my statement is entirely valid and still stands: She respects the law when it gives her power, but will ignore it, and take illegal actions when such actions will maintain and enhance her power.

Vice President Zarek was obviously heading off to another ship during the evacuation. He was armed and giving orders, so I assume he was carrying out a part of the evacuation plan (which mean he was probably following Tigh's orders at that moment). Roslin had been involved in the resistance while he had been imprisoned, so that, plus her own past leadership, gave her enough authority to lead a group on Colonial One. By Zarek’s reaction, I wonder if he and others might have written the ship off, since it was the center of the Cylon’s government.

I have no problem with Laura Roslin's actions in liberating Colonial One. Why should I? However, she installs herself on the ship after the flight from New Caprica. Consider the episodes, she seems to be granting audiences to the President of the Colonies upon a colonial government ship, while she herself was not a part of the government.

Afterwards, Adama promised the military wouldn’t be supportive of his leadership. The military is a political faction within the fleet, perhaps the most important since they are the backbone and the shield of the fleet. Zarek could have fought, but he willingly stepped aside. From things seen in past seasons, he’s clearly a polarizing figure, and I think it’s likely he would have had many political enemies, in the military as well as the Quorum, the press, and the general population.

And this statement in way contradicts what I said. The military forced the rsignation of the president.

Also, Zarek had the Presidency due to a campaign based on colonization. With the only issue that got him to the office a complete disaster, his mandate was void. Roslin had campaigned on keeping the fleet moving, and now that they were in that position again, she was the one most knowledgeable and capable of leading it. Zarek knew this, as he stepped aside for her quite willingly. Not only that, he tried to do some of the dirty work he felt was necessary before leaving, in order to protect her once she took office. Overall, I think it was a big step of character development for him.

What happened to the rule of law? I heartily disagree. Zarek's greatest, perhaps only, liability is his association with Baltar. I wish to make the point again that the Cylons found him more dangerous that Laura, so her participation in the resistance hardly puts her ahead of Zarek.

You say that colonization was the signle issue that put Baltar and Zarek in presidency and vice-presidency. That is hardly the case. It may have been the issue that increased their support into the majority, but they, especially, Zarek enjoyed popular support for other reasons.

She didn’t stand for popular election, but she was voted into office this time. The Quorum had to approve of her taking the Vice Presidency, and I suspect that Zarek told them the full plan first. Otherwise, the Quorum and the populace would be calling shenanigans. And there can’t be shenaniganry in the office of the Presidency.

I am sure she also had to be approved to be Minister of Education, but that is hardly the point. My point is this: She has now become president twice without standing for popular election. She lost the only popular election she ever stood for. She tried to rig the only popular election for which she stood. And the second time she become president it was by displacing a legal president who had stood for popular election and won.

[Hatcheter]

Hey! People! Throw some spoiler tags around the S3 details for the sake of Ulysses 31, who started this thread??? He hasn't gotten that far yet! See first post!

Sorry, my bad.

[Hatcheter]

Spoiler:

It seems that we're discussing three different things here. Roslins first ascencion to Presidnecy, the campaign, and her return to office.

I am certainly open to being reminded of points that I have missed. I am however confused when you state that I have forgotten the rule of law. In fact, I think that it was my point that Laura Roslin came to power through the colonial's respect for the rule of law, but that she is willing act illegaly in order to maitain her power.

I certainly agree that this is what happened. What I meant by tenuous legal argument, is that though she may have been the legal president of the colonies, the fleet left the colonies. The fleet left the sovereign territories of the colonies. That is to say, the colonial government did not have sovereignty over the fleet.

Okay, I gotta ask, because this is clearly the dividing point in our thinking on this particular topic: why do you think the government of the Colonies and its general rule of law became void once the survivors of the Cylon attack fled their territory for parts unknown? Because on the one hand you’re complaining about how Roslin became President, and on the other you're saying that the Presidency doesn’t apply anymore because they’re outside the old Colonial territory.

This was all laid out way back in ‘Bastille Day’. There is a President and a mass of soldiers all sworn to uphold the Articles of Confederation. Familiar territory or not, the responsibility remains to uphold the law that they are responsible for. And with the remaining Colonial civilians there with them, the Fleet is the Colonies.

Wow. I guess you don't think much of Baltar. Certainly he is probably not worth much respect, but not for those reasons. (1) Baltar did not sell out humanity. I think that that would require that heunderstand the consequence of his actions, or at least that he be aware that he was working with the cylons. As far as he was aware, he was helping his girlfriend's company get an edge over the competition. Hugely illegal and morally bankrupt? Yes. Selling out humanity to the cylons? I don't think so. (2) Dangerous colonization plan? In fact the only way the Cylon found new Caprica was due to the bomb detonated by Gina. I fail to see how the colonization plan was substantially more dangerous that the locate earth plan. In fact, I believe that it could be seen as much less dangerous.

Anyway, to your point that the necessity of keeping Baltar from office justified illegal actions. At this point I recalled my confusion that you thought I had forgotten the rule of law. I think my statement is entirely valid and still stands: She respects the law when it gives her power, but will ignore it, and take illegal actions when such actions will maintain and enhance her power.

No, I don’t think much of Baltar. He knowingly sold his military connections to get a woman. The end result was far from what he thought she intended, but unintended betrayal is still a betrayal. And Roslin didn’t have all the details; her perception of events did leave the question that Baltar might have intentionally helped the Cylons. His failure to address the issue did nothing to ease her mind, and it is certain that she was seeing his behavior over the course of the flight from the Colonies in a whole new light.

I’m not saying it wasn’t illegal, but it was a drastic action for a drastic situation. If she were losing to another candidate running on colonization, she probably wouldn't have done it. If Baltar was winning without the two factors that so frightened her (treason and colonization) in play, I don't believe she would have done it. But she foresaw a terrible future on the horizon, and couldn't sit back and do nothing to prevent it.

One act does not a pattern make. Are there any other instances you can point out from before the election that would suggest she made a habit of abusing her power?

I have no problem with Laura Roslin's actions in liberating Colonial One. Why should I? However, she installs herself on the ship after the flight from New Caprica. Consider the episodes, she seems to be granting audiences to the President of the Colonies upon a colonial government ship, while she herself was not a part of the government.

I don’t see that at all. Re-watching ‘Torn’, Zarek has two scenes while he’s the sitting President. The first is the meeting between he and Roslin where he explains his plan to her. We join that meeting after it’s in progress, so it’s impossible to say who’s giving an audience to whom.

The second scene, where he explains the collaboration trials, is set in Galactica’s conference room. Presumably, Adama called him over after Gaeta went to him and revealed the Circle. Roslin and Torri, who were certainly already hard at work preparing for the transition of leadership, were also there. This was where Roslin took Zarek to task for ignoring the law.

From this scene, if there’s anyone who abuses the Office of the Presidency, it’s Adama, who is quite casual with his whims to end Presidencies.

You say that colonization was the signle issue that put Baltar and Zarek in presidency and vice-presidency. That is hardly the case. It may have been the issue that increased their support into the majority, but they, especially, Zarek enjoyed popular support for other reasons.

They didn’t enjoy enough support to have a fighting chance against the Roslin campaign. Colonization was the one thing that turned the election in Baltar’s favor.

I am sure she also had to be approved to be Minister of Education, but that is hardly the point. My point is this: She has now become president twice without standing for popular election. She lost the only popular election she ever stood for. She tried to rig the only popular election for which she stood. And the second time she become president it was by displacing a legal president who had stood for popular election and won.

Does anybody vote for a Vice President? It’s the guy at the top of the ticket who is the focus. We only ever saw Zarek in the “war room”, helping Baltar plot campaign strategy.

I don’t see how Roslin muscled Zarek out of office all on her own. IMO, she was, if anything, going to be helpful to him if he remained in office. They seem to have suddenly established a rather cordial relationship after being put together on the Cylon death march. Evidenced by her offering him the Vice-Presidency, a prospect that had terrified her a year and a half before.

But Zarek left office anyway. In his own words:

“Well, I’m a realist. I never had any illusions of remaining in office for very long. And the Admiral’s made it quite clear that he’d like nothing better than to put me in a cell if I try to hang on to power.”

As I said earlier, there must have been various political forces lining up against him. If the Colonies have a recall vote on Presidents, it’s possible that his term would have been shortened anyway. If not, the new Quorum could have sought to impeach him simply out of anger over the mistakes of the administration he came from.

The military, which I suspect voted nearly unanimously for Roslin, was certainly in no hurry to bestow it’s blessing on Zarek, despite that he was their legal leader. Adama probably would have been ornery and disrespectful, and Zarek would likely have responded by being dismissive and distrustful.

So, Zarek stepped aside graciously, for the good of the Fleet.

And Roslin, for the second time, legally ascended to the Office of the Presidency, in full accordance to the Articles of Confederation. The Colonies are in a precarious situation, and she’s had to take extraordinary measures to deal with the varied crises that have occurred during her terms. But she’s proven to be not only a competent leader, but the best choice to lead out of the 40,000 or so people who are still left alive.