Babylon 5 - The Complete First Time Watch (Spoilers) First watch/Rewatch

[Cold Fuzz]

Deconstruction of Falling Stars...

Spoiler:

What you thought was a Vorlon is actually what humans will evolve into in a million years. They will become non-corporeal beings of pure energy just like the Vorlons are now. The encounter suit definitely looks like the shape of a human with two eyes, unlike the one eye of the Vorlon encounter suit.

In an episode in the 1st season (I believe,) Delenn is talking to the Minbari Grey Council about the humans and how they have the capacity to walk among the stars like giants. This was foreshadowing by JMS that humans would evolve one day to rival what the Vorlons and Shadows were today. They are now the older races charged with guiding the younger races along.

I liked the overall look at the future of humanity from a million years in the future, but the segment with the computer built avatars of the stars of the show was a little hard to accept. Overall a good episode, with a few questionable segments.

Spoiler:

A very moving conclusion to the Babylon 5 timeline. Yes, humanity had its stumbles, especially the Great Burn. But in the end we endured and evolved. In one million years, humanity was as mighty as the Vorlons, sporting similar technologies with their encounter suits and organic ships, but humans turned out to be wiser than the Vorlons. Why? Along with the Minbari, humanity learned and remembered the painful lesson of the final Shadow War. Despite the many mistakes of the Shadows and Vorlons, we endured their feud and in my opinion, grew beyond their original potential.

And the best part of all this? Humans aren't alone in their ascendency. The Isil'zha emblem on that ship at the end of Deconstruction indicates that even after 1 million years, the Interstellar Alliance is very much alive, with the Rangers still in force. JMS himself said that the Minbari also reach the same state of evolution as humans, retaining the age-old wisdom of Valen and Delenn, but also reaching the height of the Vorlons' and Shadows' power. It's incredibly ironic that after the brutal Earth/Minbar War, with such seething hatred on both sides, that the close alliance betwen humans and the Minbari born in the Rangers would still endure in the far, far distant future.

[jmoz]

Spoiler:

A very moving conclusion to the Babylon 5 timeline. Yes, humanity had its stumbles, especially the Great Burn. But in the end we endured and evolved. In one million years, humanity was as mighty as the Vorlons, sporting similar technologies with their encounter suits and organic ships, but humans turned out to be wiser than the Vorlons. Why? Along with the Minbari, humanity learned and remembered the painful lesson of the final Shadow War. Despite the many mistakes of the Shadows and Vorlons, we endured their feud and in my opinion, grew beyond their original potential.

And the best part of all this? Humans aren't alone in their ascendency. The Isil'zha emblem on that ship at the end of Deconstruction indicates that even after 1 million years, the Interstellar Alliance is very much alive, with the Rangers still in force. JMS himself said that the Minbari also reach the same state of evolution as humans, retaining the age-old wisdom of Valen and Delenn, but also reaching the height of the Vorlons' and Shadows' power. It's incredibly ironic that after the brutal Earth/Minbar War, with such seething hatred on both sides, that the close alliance betwen humans and the Minbari born in the Rangers would still endure in the far, far distant future.

Hold on..

Spoiler:

Wasn't the last entry of the video logs the one where all of the knowledge of humanity is sent into that suit thing? And wasn't that last entry a 1000 years from Sheridan's time, not a million? Or did I miss something.

Quite frankly, I find it hard to believe that we evolved that much in that amount of time. I mean a 1000 years ago from now, we were pretty much the same. But I guess technology sped up the process.

So wait, we evolved to a form like the Vorlons. So did some other race take the evolution path of the shadow? I would venture to guess that the Minbari probably evolved before humans? Still, this was a great look into the future impact of the Alliance.

[Cold Fuzz]

Hold on..

Spoiler:

Wasn't the last entry of the video logs the one where all of the knowledge of humanity is sent into that suit thing? And wasn't that last entry a 1000 years from Sheridan's time, not a million? Or did I miss something.

Quite frankly, I find it hard to believe that we evolved that much in that amount of time. I mean a 1000 years ago from now, we were pretty much the same. But I guess technology sped up the process.

So wait, we evolved to a form like the Vorlons. So did some other race take the evolution path of the shadow? I would venture to guess that the Minbari probably evolved before humans? Still, this was a great look into the future impact of the Alliance.

Spoiler:

The last log entry was indeed 1000 from Sheridan's time (3262). However, after all that was over, the computer in the distant future told the Ranger watching all the events that all the information up to 1 million years after the formation of the Alliance had been compiled and saved. The computer, as strange as this seems, is essentially a flicker of light that escaped up the ceiling to the Ranger's ship. The Ranger himself was also made of light, in a matter of speaking.

The evolutionary step towards becoming like the First Ones is similar to ascension in the Stargate universe. Indeed, the Minbari get there first, with the humans right after them. Here's the thing about evolving along the same path as the Shadows: According to canon B5 novels, the Shadows were originally an aggressive arachnid species. However, they evolved as well. Believe it or not, the Shadows are also beings of light. They just choose to cloak themselves and show themsleves in a dark form, rather than as creatures of light. In fact, the Shadows dislike light period.

One last bit: The future Ranger was talking about moving to New Earth. New Earth is the old Vorlon Homeworld. It's still around after all that time. In that future, humans have finally earned the right visit the Vorlon Homeworld--as beings of equal power and wisdom as the Vorlons themselves. So humanity moved to New Earth while the old Earth was gone after Sol went supernova.

[jmoz]

Ahh, ok.

Spoiler:

Makes me wonder how evolved the Vorlons and Shadow are now, well then after a million years.

[Cold Fuzz]

Ahh, ok.

Spoiler:

Makes me wonder how evolved the Vorlons and Shadow are now, well then after a million years.

Spoiler:

That's something JMS never mentioned a direct answer to. I do remember him being asked, "So what's beyond the rim that all the First Ones seem to want to go there?" He said, "One hell of a big Taco Bell."

[jmoz]

Better left unexplored huh.

Spoiler:

Makes me wonder what state that guy that saved Sheridan is in. I mean he does age, right? Or has he become light as well?

Also, what about that telepath that "ascended"? What is he? Is he sort of a Vorlon or something beyond or below? Crazy unanswered mysterious things.

[Cold Fuzz]

Better left unexplored huh.

Spoiler:

Makes me wonder what state that guy that saved Sheridan is in. I mean he does age, right? Or has he become light as well?

Also, what about that telepath that "ascended"? What is he? Is he sort of a Vorlon or something beyond or below? Crazy unanswered mysterious things.

Spoiler:

Lorien, the First One--the one who saved Sheridan, is most definitely immortal. As we've seen, he can take corporeal form. However, as we saw with Into the Fire, he has a non-corporeal form as well. He also explained to Ivanova that the first members of his race here born natural immortal. Of course, she wasn't exactly buying that line.

Jason Ironheart essentially became like a Vorlon or Lorien. Indeed, he does have a physical form, but like the other First Ones, he can manipulate matter and energy.

A little aside on this: The energies commanded by the Vorlons are immense and their reserves are vast. They don't need ships to destroy a Shadow vessel. The Technomage Trilogy of novels (all considered canon by JMS) delve deeply into the individual powers of both Vorlons and Shadows.

[jmoz]

Ahh, makes me wonder what Vorlon ships are made of then.

Spoiler:

Cause they are definitely organic and part machine and connected to a sort of host, right? With the whole Kosh thing.

[Cold Fuzz]

Ahh, makes me wonder what Vorlon ships are made of then.

Spoiler:

Cause they are definitely organic and part machine and connected to a sort of host, right? With the whole Kosh thing.

Spoiler:

The Technomage novels go into greater depth with Vorlon and Shadow ships--and sometimes in rather gross detail I might add. Though the exact substance the Vorlon ships use isn't really explored, one thing's for certain: The ships themselves are alive. The Transports/Light Cruisers are alive though not exactly sentient. The Vorlon fighters are largely unmanned, though highly intelligent with their AI. A squadron of Vorlon fighters can successfully oppose a Shadow warship. According to JMS though, the Vorlon Heavy Cruiser has the least amount of sentience, with a full crew of Vorlons commanding the ship. The Vorlons themselves treat their ships as living beings. The Shadows, on the other hand, treat their ships as tools, despite being organic. The Shadows themselves almost never pilot their own ships.

[VSS]

Deconstruction of Falling Stars- very profound. I love this stuff!

Spoiler:

I read your conversations, above. I think it's interesting that in one million years people have essentially evolved into AI. There are futurists that forecast that even now. In a sense, the avatars at 2762 are an intermediate step- if Caprica didn't steal the idea from B5, it sure is close! But many futurists forecast that we'll never see aliens as incarnate beings like we've imagined them in Star Wars and dozens of other shows- rather, that to even travel through space to get here they would probably already have evolved into pure intelligence.

Okay, back to the episode- I have two questions. First, who was supposed to have been seated at the academician's conference table in the 2362 segment? There's a conspicuously empty seat there. They didn't know Delenn would show up, so it wasn't reserved for her. Who was it for, or what did it symbolize? Oh, and loved the big take-down by Delenn- so totally owned: "You do not want to know anything. You only want to speak. What you do know, you ignore because it is inconvenient. What you do not know, you imagine..."

Second, what's the significance of the Roman numerals that appear in the lower left corner of the screen during the 3262 sequence? Was that to signifiy to the viewer that this is a recording? The numbers don't seem to be in order, however. I didn't write them down to try to figure it out.

Loved this ep. Definitely, it's true that Sheridan had only twenty years to live following his resurrection a Z'ha'dum. We also know there's a terrible war coming up, and the telepaths are involved. I just love this series, it's so complicated but everything meshes together well. I also love the spirituality of it because I like thinking there's more to life than just what we can figure out through science. To me it would be a bit depressing if what we can discover objectively is all there is.

The show isn't necessarily religious, though I like the religious references. But as the good Brother said, reason is the shoe on one foot and faith the shoe on the other, and he has to walk on both to move forward. It's funny that he thinks he's "faking" religion on the one hand- but believes mightily in Valen. Whom we know is Jeffrey Sinclair. Brother Alwyn still lives for The One, and dies for The One- he's no more rational than the younger monk.

[Cold Fuzz]

Deconstruction of Falling Stars- very profound. I love this stuff!

Spoiler:

I read your conversations, above. I think it's interesting that in one million years people have essentially evolved into AI. There are futurists that forecast that even now. In a sense, the avatars at 2762 are an intermediate step- if Caprica didn't steal the idea from B5, it sure is close! But many futurists forecast that we'll never see aliens as incarnate beings like we've imagined them in Star Wars and dozens of other shows- rather, that to even travel through space to get here they would probably already have evolved into pure intelligence.

Just to clarify something about the First Ones, Vorlons, and the future humans 1 million years from now. They aren't AI as in pure consciousness or as the artificial intelligence of a computer. The Vorlons, despite looking nebulous in their true form (not the angelic form), do have a certain physicality to them and JMS has said so. They can and do reach out and hit objects and people, as Ulkesh did in Falling Toward Apotheosis. Furthermore, they can be contained in an encounter suit, just like the future humans in Deconstruction. Now whether or not the Vorlons are using pure telekinesis or a combination of hitting objects and using telepathy is ambiguous at best.

Another evidence of their physicality is Kosh's poisoning in The Gathering. The poison used and antidote administered has based on a crystal. So this implies that the Vorlons in some strange way, are a combination of energy and some kind of crystal form. This makes a certain kind of sense since crystals absorb and reflect/refract energy and light. Since the Vorlons, their physical form, and their technology is based on light (again the Technomage novels come into play), it's reasonable to conclude that the future humans evolved on a similar path.

Okay, back to the episode- I have two questions. First, who was supposed to have been seated at the academician's conference table in the 2362 segment? There's a conspicuously empty seat there. They didn't know Delenn would show up, so it wasn't reserved for her. Who was it for, or what did it symbolize? Oh, and loved the big take-down by Delenn- so totally owned: "You do not want to know anything. You only want to speak. What you do know, you ignore because it is inconvenient. What you do not know, you imagine..."

I'll have to look at that scene again. I focused so much on Delenn confronting the academics that I virtually overlooked that empty chair.

Second, what's the significance of the Roman numerals that appear in the lower left corner of the screen during the 3262 sequence? Was that to signifiy to the viewer that this is a recording? The numbers don't seem to be in order, however. I didn't write them down to try to figure it out.

The Roman numerals indicated different cameras that were being used throughout the room. Every time the camera angle shifted, a new Roman numeral appeared, indicating the use of a different camera. It's an odd cinematic tool to be sure but it makes sense in a weird way, to make Alwyn's report more...precise in a record-keeping sort of way.

Loved this ep. Definitely, it's true that Sheridan had only twenty years to live following his resurrection a Z'ha'dum. We also know there's a terrible war coming up, and the telepaths are involved. I just love this series, it's so complicated but everything meshes together well. I also love the spirituality of it because I like thinking there's more to life than just what we can figure out through science. To me it would be a bit depressing if what we can discover objectively is all there is.

The show isn't necessarily religious, though I like the religious references. But as the good Brother said, reason is the shoe on one foot and faith the shoe on the other, and he has to walk on both to move forward. It's funny that he thinks he's "faking" religion on the one hand- but believes mightily in Valen. Whom we know is Jeffrey Sinclair. Brother Alwyn still lives for The One, and dies for The One- he's no more rational than the younger monk.

Indeed, the episode got really profound with its message that faith and reason being the means for the ultimate journey of searching for truth. I happen to agree with this message. I've never been a proponent on relying on pure science or pure faith to understand the world around us. Either one by itself presents only an incomplete view of the world and neither one necessarily contradicts the other.

[VSS]

Spoiler:

Just to clarify something about the First Ones, Vorlons, and the future humans 1 million years from now. They aren't AI as in pure consciousness or as the artificial intelligence of a computer. The Vorlons, despite looking nebulous in their true form (not the angelic form), do have a certain physicality to them and JMS has said so. They can and do reach out and hit objects and people, as Ulkesh did in Falling Toward Apotheosis. Furthermore, they can be contained in an encounter suit, just like the future humans in Deconstruction. Now whether or not the Vorlons are using pure telekinesis or a combination of hitting objects and using telepathy is ambiguous at best.

Another evidence of their physicality is Kosh's poisoning in The Gathering. The poison used and antidote administered has based on a crystal. So this implies that the Vorlons in some strange way, are a combination of energy and some kind of crystal form. This makes a certain kind of sense since crystals absorb and reflect/refract energy and light. Since the Vorlons, their physical form, and their technology is based on light (again the Technomage novels come into play), it's reasonable to conclude that the future humans evolved on a similar path.

Spoiler:

This makes sense to me. By pure AI I meant they've more or less left normal biology and reproduction behind, not that they're only comprised of energy and nothing else. It seems to me that there would always be a need for a container of some sort, and I did notice the Vorlon-like environmental suit there at the end. Crystals seem like a logical thing for that kind of storage, because of the repeating patterns, especially combine with some kind of metal that could carry a charge. Or they might have a way to store photons, which would be cool indeed, and they could just use the crystals. But the human body is a weak point, and requires much to maintain it, and it's interesting that most belief systems involve leaving it behind when a person ascends, transcends, goes to heaven or reaches Nirvana. Which just reflects how limiting we all perceive it to be. I think it's interesting that futurists feel the same way about it.

I wonder, like jmoz said, what the Vorlons and the Shadows would have become by that point. Maybe they do evolve into pure thought, like the Star Child of 2001: A Space Odyssey. On the other hand, having a body has its upside, too, but I suppose a type virtual reality program or mode would compensate for all that.

I'll have to look at that scene again. I focused so much on Delenn confronting the academics that I virtually overlooked that empty chair.

This is the advantage of never having seen this before. I had no idea Delenn was going to show up, so I noticed the space right off! It's like they're waiting for someone. THe computer monitor is even on, which leads me to believe that it's not just an empty space to separate the moderator from the discussants, which would also allow a clear space where Delenn could be seen. If that's all they wanted to do, they'd have had him at one desk and the two academicians behind another. That would have given us a much clearer view of Delenn. It's just odd.

The Roman numerals indicated different cameras that were being used throughout the room. Every time the camera angle shifted, a new Roman numeral appeared, indicating the use of a different camera. It's an odd cinematic tool to be sure but it makes sense in a weird way, to make Alwyn's report more...precise in a record-keeping sort of way.

Ah, okay. I thought it might have to do with the recording, but didn't know what.

Also, about those B & W photos- I have several of my family, taken recently. They age much better than color photos so I agree that's why they have those of John Sheridan. Although you'd think that by the twenty-third century they'd have figured out how to keep color photos from fading!

[jmoz]

Holy crap, emphasis on crap...episode 6 or 7 of season 5 or something.

Spoiler:

Season 5's sooooooooo boring. I'm not into the whole hippie convention going on with the telepaths. Jeez, they're all smoking something all right. Leyta is easily taken in with them. She freaking came on to the guy and just said I want you in me. What the hell. Seriously? lol sorry. And that whole sex thing is weird. She shared some of her memories with everyone and went all dark eyes. The guy is nice, wise, and all but soooo annoying. Thought it was common knowledge that the Vorlons were responsible for making telepaths, guess not.

Eh, will see how it plays out. Can't be in a good direction. So Londo and G'Kar are sorta friends again. I still can't forgive Londo though. But from the time episode thing, think he's gonna get what's coming to him maybe. And his people are being taken over by some weird parasitic race it seems.

Franklin not wanting to help that alien race is a bit weird. But guess he's sorta right. They deserve their fate. he should only help them when they acknowledge their ancestors' mistakes. They make a point of saying that it isn't their fault, it was their ancestors. Then why not reveal that history then? It wasn't their fault. They act like it is though so that makes them all the more culpable. Guess they have to go through the whole forgive yourself first, blah blah blah.

Delenn's.....Delenn. lol, Sheridan has a goatee. Looks kinda villany. Garibaldi's back. He's pretty great. And I really don't like the new commander, whatever her name is. I forget. She's pretty annoying. Wish Ivanova was back. She was awesome and had some awesome, epic, memorable humour.

[Cold Fuzz]

Holy crap, emphasis on crap...episode 6 or 7 of season 5 or something.

Spoiler:

Season 5's sooooooooo boring. I'm not into the whole hippie convention going on with the telepaths. Jeez, they're all smoking something all right. Leyta is easily taken in with them. She freaking came on to the guy and just said I want you in me. What the hell. Seriously? lol sorry. And that whole sex thing is weird. She shared some of her memories with everyone and went all dark eyes. The guy is nice, wise, and all but soooo annoying. Thought it was common knowledge that the Vorlons were responsible for making telepaths, guess not.

Eh, will see how it plays out. Can't be in a good direction. So Londo and G'Kar are sorta friends again. I still can't forgive Londo though. But from the time episode thing, think he's gonna get what's coming to him maybe. And his people are being taken over by some weird parasitic race it seems.

Franklin not wanting to help that alien race is a bit weird. But guess he's sorta right. They deserve their fate. he should only help them when they acknowledge their ancestors' mistakes. They make a point of saying that it isn't their fault, it was their ancestors. Then why not reveal that history then? It wasn't their fault. They act like it is though so that makes them all the more culpable. Guess they have to go through the whole forgive yourself first, blah blah blah.

Delenn's.....Delenn. lol, Sheridan has a goatee. Looks kinda villany. Garibaldi's back. He's pretty great. And I really don't like the new commander, whatever her name is. I forget. She's pretty annoying. Wish Ivanova was back. She was awesome and had some awesome, epic, memorable humour.

Spoiler:

Byron and the telepaths. *sigh* What can I say about them? After you watch past Phoenix Rising or maybe The Wheel of Fire, I'll write some more specifics about the Byron story line. For now, seeing how it plays out and how Lyta and Bester get caught up in this mess is the big thing. It's hard to be sympathetic to a group of people if their leaders is...well, annoying. A number of people here have repeatedly referred to Byron as a telepathic Fabio.

Londo. *sigh* He's come full circle now and admittedly he is a better person than when he first came to Babylon 5. However, it's an unfortunate reality that no matter how much a person may want to change or has changed, their previous words and actions can be so severe that it they will end up damning that person no matter how deserving they may be for redemption. There have been those who have defended Londo and have claimed that he wasn't a truly evil person, that his intentions were always good, to serve the Centauri. Well, the way to hell is paved with such good intentions. In the end, Londo is completely responsible for what happens to him and his people. Everything that he told Morden when he was asked by him "What do you want?" will come true...in a horrifying and tragic way.

I didn't like Lochley at first, but she grew on me after a while. Believe it or not, she starts to grow on Garibaldi too. But as OK as Lochley may be, she's definitely no Ivanova. I wonder how season 5 would have played out had Claudia Christian remained on the show.

[jmoz]

LOL telepathic Fabio, that's good.

Day of the Dead episode

Spoiler:

That whole episode pushed my boundaries of logical believability. How people came from their past. Extremely weird, but as Sheridan or Delenn said, guess some things are better left as a mystery.