The Covid19 thread

[Falcon Horus]

Actually, I do. I found one lone soldier in an air duct about 5 years ago. Must have been in there 50 years.

Poor thing -- a plastic shock for him coming out in the daylight after all that time.

[VampyreWraith]

I strongly suspect this medical fraud will be used repeatedly to discredit any numbers that anyone doesn't’ like. It’s not enough that due to the inconsistencies between how states categorized the deaths, the abysmal lack of testing meaning that many that died were covid positive but could not be tested etc have already made accurate numbers impossible.

Normally the lack of tests would be the reason for inaccurate numbers, but that’s an uncomfortable truth for some mindsets, so the medical fraud is a ‘better’ excuse because it allows some to cling to righteous indignation.

That seemed to be the motivation behind the first person who I saw bring up the possibility of medical fraud in a interview; basically suggesting that the number of confirmed cases, especially in certain states, because of existing local policies or whatever, might be inflated because the cares act gave hospitals more money for certain patients if a covid diagnosis was attached to their care.

[Annoyed]

That seemed to be the motivation behind the first person who I saw bring up the possibility of medical fraud in a interview; basically suggesting that the number of confirmed cases, especially in certain states, because of existing local policies or whatever, might be inflated because the cares act gave hospitals more money for certain patients if a covid diagnosis was attached to their care.

And other states are under-reporting, in order to achieve other ends. Like any statistics, they will be manipulated. Pity we can't have honest and ethical governments.

[Skydiver]

Yep. Some states have had significant increases in ‘flu’ fatalities.

[VampyreWraith]

And other states are under-reporting, in order to achieve other ends. Like any statistics, they will be manipulated. Pity we can't have honest and ethical governments.

A lot of the underreporting/overreporting could probably be revealed months or even years from now. Like if a place is only reporting 10 covid related deaths but they reported 500 heart attacks (when the year before they reported 20), they likely underreported covid. If a hospital has like 10 elderly patients with broken legs/hips and they all supposedly have covid but they aren't receiving any covid related treatment, the hospital is probably lying about the covid diagnosis. There have been no reports of this medical fraud yet as far as I know though (it's a possibility, but I don't think there has been a massive overcountcount of cases due to hospital administrators wanting to get more money from the government for patient care), it might become more of a thing when hospitals aren't as busy, since hospital staff might then have more time on their hands to fraudulently report things. Underreporting is probably a lot more likely due to lack of testing (or people being asymptomatic or just not have severe enough symptoms to warrant a trip to a hospital or doctor) than over reporting though and would probably be more noticeable too through excess deaths and/or hospitalizations.

[Annoyed]

A lot of the underreporting/overreporting could probably be revealed months or even years from now. Like if a place is only reporting 10 covid related deaths but they reported 500 heart attacks (when the year before they reported 20), they likely underreported covid. If a hospital has like 10 elderly patients with broken legs/hips and they all supposedly have covid but they aren't receiving any covid related treatment, the hospital is probably lying about the covid diagnosis. There have been no reports of this medical fraud yet as far as I know though (it's a possibility, but I don't think there has been a massive overcountcount of cases due to hospital administrators wanting to get more money from the government for patient care), it might become more of a thing when hospitals aren't as busy, since hospital staff might then have more time on their hands to fraudulently report things. Underreporting is probably a lot more likely due to lack of testing (or people being asymptomatic or just not have severe enough symptoms to warrant a trip to a hospital or doctor) than over reporting though and would probably be more noticeable too through excess deaths and/or hospitalizations.

You're forgetting a few basic principals.

Politicians are corrupt. Period. I don't care what stripe they are, they very fact that they are politicians means that they are corrupt. In most cases, in order to have enough money to even sit down at the table, they have to have sold their ethics. Even someone who enters the field as a bright-eyed kid with wholly pure intentions gets corrupted by the system.

So they don't bat an eyelash at manipulating statistics to advance their agenda. Some states will inflate their stats to get more money. Others will deflate stats to make it easier for them to push premature re-opening businesses.

You can't rely on media, that is so biased these days that no matter what source you're looking at, they won't report what doesn't reinforce their own agenda.

Fortunately, it's usually not to hard to figure out what lie is being told by looking at the context or overall picture in the state and asking a few questions. What makes sense from that politician's POV in relation to their overall goals? Who makes money from whatever lie is being told?

[VampyreWraith]

That's one of the reasons I said months or years, do you really think that a politician from one side looking to unseat someone, isn't going to dig up data on the opposing side and be like "look at all the people that died because lack of testing or corruption or whatever caused an undercount in covid hospitalizations so they could rush to reopen" or on the other side "look at all the taxpayer dollars that were lost due to medical fraud and all the economic damage done by inflating numbers so they could get government handouts and stay closed".

[VampyreWraith]

Something interesting and non political lol

https://arstechnica.com/science/2020...species/?amp=1

[Womble]

Fortunately, it's usually not to hard to figure out what lie is being told by looking at the context or overall picture in the state and asking a few questions. What makes sense from that politician's POV in relation to their overall goals? Who makes money from whatever lie is being told?

But that's the thing- it's harder than it looks.

Most conspiracy theories are born from people trying to make sense of complex and unrelated events by simplifying the hell out of them and applying the kind of logic you're describing plus the ever-reliable "after that, therefore because of that".

For example, hospitals getting extra money for treating Covid-19 cases makes perfect sense when you consider how much resource strain, extra work hours and hazard it adds. Hospitals with Covid-19 cases on their hands NEED the extra money. But people with obsession over "who profits?" will spin this into a conspiracy theory - what if the hospitals invent Covid-19 cases to get rich? Note that the latter mindset does not require evidence, experience, expertise or basically anything other than laziness of thought.

The ultimate case of laziness of thought right now is the increasingly widespread "Bill Gates uses 5G to spread Covid-19 and microchip everyone" nutbaggery. It's like all the conceivable silliness in one package. Also a hilarious convergence of right- and left-wing paranoiacs with those of the "wellness" industry. Only the Jews are missing from the ingredients lists, but I'm guessing they'll get there; we just need to give them a little more time.

I do admit, however, that once you truly lose trust in the government, it is very hard to keep yourself from falling into warped logic traps. Right now, I'm having a catastrophic loss of trust in the political system due to our Crime Minister's actions, and some of the conspiracy theories floating around start looking downright reasonable. For instance, my fellow travel agents increasingly suspect that the feet-dragging with restarting international travel to and from Israel is grounded not in health concerns but in economic ones; the government seeks to destroy the outgoing tourism industry in order to prop up domestic economy and bail out local hotels - because statistically, Israelis spend twice more money on foreign trips than incoming tourists spend in Israel.

[Annoyed]

But that's the thing- it's harder than it looks.

Most conspiracy theories are born from people trying to make sense of complex and unrelated events by simplifying the hell out of them and applying the kind of logic you're describing plus the ever-reliable "after that, therefore because of that".

For example, hospitals getting extra money for treating Covid-19 cases makes perfect sense when you consider how much resource strain, extra work hours and hazard it adds. Hospitals with Covid-19 cases on their hands NEED the extra money. But people with obsession over "who profits?" will spin this into a conspiracy theory - what if the hospitals invent Covid-19 cases to get rich? Note that the latter mindset does not require evidence, experience, expertise or basically anything other than laziness of thought.

I have no issue with hospitals getting more money for CV cases. But the way some states are doing it, if a patient has CV, but is asymptomatic, and is involved in an accident which results in his death due getting decapitated, they will record it as CV and get the extra money.

Oh, and as long as you're talking conspiracies, back when this behavior was first discovered, you could find documentation for it via Google fairly easily. Nowdays, not so much. Google wouldn't be scrubbing its search results to fit someone's narrative, would they? Naw..
Oh, and try to find references to the US CDC's pronouncement on March 2nd that people shouldn't be buying masks because they weren't effective. Not all that common.

The ultimate case of laziness of thought right now is the increasingly widespread "Bill Gates uses 5G to spread Covid-19 and microchip everyone" nutbaggery. It's like all the conceivable silliness in one package. Also a hilarious convergence of right- and left-wing paranoiacs with those of the "wellness" industry. Only the Jews are missing from the ingredients lists, but I'm guessing they'll get there; we just need to give them a little more time.

That is actually partially based in fact, but is badly distorted. In reality, Gates and others have been pushing for a cashless society. This would make every financial transaction something to be recorded by the banking industry's computers, and that data would be accessible to the govt. or anyone who hacks into the bank computers. Might as well microchip everyone.

I do admit, however, that once you truly lose trust in the government, it is very hard to keep yourself from falling into warped logic traps. Right now, I'm having a catastrophic loss of trust in the political system due to our Crime Minister's actions, and some of the conspiracy theories floating around start looking downright reasonable. For instance, my fellow travel agents increasingly suspect that the feet-dragging with restarting international travel to and from Israel is grounded not in health concerns but in economic ones; the government seeks to destroy the outgoing tourism industry in order to prop up domestic economy and bail out local hotels - because statistically, Israelis spend twice more money on foreign trips than incoming tourists spend in Israel.

I think you've got something backwards. The default position should be distrust, particularly of govt. Trust should have to be earned, not blindly given. As far as govt., why do people go into government? They want to be able to control people. Sure they may tell themselves and others that they want to "raise the quality of life for all species" to borrow from some well-known Sci Fi bad guys, but at the end of the day, they want to control other people. That type of person shouldn't be trusted at all.

The theory about international air travel makes sense. It provides a plausible motive and the folks involved are capable of carrying it out.

Another possibility is they are just trying to make excuses. I may be wrong, but I think travel, particularly air travel is going to take a very long time to recover, if it ever does. We have an airborne disease that we have no mass applicable testing means, and getting on an airliner is getting into a small aluminum tube that recirculates the air that everyone is forced to breathe and sit down next to other people in extremely close seating which often forces physical contact between people for hours at a time. Talk about an ideal environment for passing disease.

Air travel has been made into a miserable experience by the airlines before the CV situation. I don't think many people are all that excited about getting on an airliner for quite some time after a vaccine is developed. Hotels/Motels are a risk too, but they can be cleaned and it's not a crammed in situation like an airliner. Perhaps the travel industry should focus on promoting travel by private motor vehicle as a way to keep itself alive for the time being.

PS: I'm not trying to pick on your industry, there will be several that are going to be permanently damaged. For example, a lot of people that live in very pricey cities have been working from home, and they've discovered that they do not have to live in that expensive city. Overpriced real estate is going to be in bad shape in the near future.

[Skydiver]

There will also be an increased emphasis on internet access for everyone. (Which will mean subsidized internet of some sort to the poor)

My employer has learned the hard way that telework isn’t something everyone can do. Some simply cannot afford internet, others live rural thus cannot get internet because the companies will not run their service too far out (makes sense, their profit/loss analysis usually means that for every line they run they need X number of subscribers to counteract that cost of running and maintaining the lines).

I know many get upset at the poor being given cell phones or internet, yet our society trends more and more towards online not trying to help all be connected means you deliberately disenfranchise whole segments of the population, cutting them off from resources. Gotta file for unemployment online, gotta renew your drivers’ license online (and as the push towards voter ID continues keeping people from getting ID becomes more and more of an issue).

Telemedicine is more and more popular yet impossible with out good internet. Same with telework. FIle your taxes online, renew your car tags online, pay your bills online, order groceries online (some of this is not possible for many since they cannot get credit cards due to a lack of income)

We are at the point where internet access is just as important to living as water, trash, electricity and heat.

In some ways our society is more fragmented - people not going to work, in other ways I’ve seen more neighborhood stuff going on. Not gatherings, but people out, walking, working in the yard, etc. Getting to know your neighbors and neighborhood because you’re home and out and able to see things.

[mad_gater]

There will also be an increased emphasis on internet access for everyone. (Which will mean subsidized internet of some sort to the poor)

My employer has learned the hard way that telework isn’t something everyone can do. Some simply cannot afford internet, others live rural thus cannot get internet because the companies will not run their service too far out (makes sense, their profit/loss analysis usually means that for every line they run they need X number of subscribers to counteract that cost of running and maintaining the lines).

I know many get upset at the poor being given cell phones or internet, yet our society trends more and more towards online not trying to help all be connected means you deliberately disenfranchise whole segments of the population, cutting them off from resources. Gotta file for unemployment online, gotta renew your drivers’ license online (and as the push towards voter ID continues keeping people from getting ID becomes more and more of an issue).

Telemedicine is more and more popular yet impossible with out good internet. Same with telework. FIle your taxes online, renew your car tags online, pay your bills online, order groceries online (some of this is not possible for many since they cannot get credit cards due to a lack of income)

We are at the point where internet access is just as important to living as water, trash, electricity and heat.

In some ways our society is more fragmented - people not going to work, in other ways I’ve seen more neighborhood stuff going on. Not gatherings, but people out, walking, working in the yard, etc. Getting to know your neighbors and neighborhood because you’re home and out and able to see things.

I don't know about that. Our current generation of seniors seems to be doing just fine without internet access

I still have a physical doctor's office I can go to. I generally tend to think that "telemedicine" seems a little shady if you ask me

I also think we still have physical unemployment offices people can go to so that they can apply for unemployment benefits. Although I will say that, at least in my neck of the woods in the People's Republic of NYS, the only way you get unemployment benefits after being let go is if your now former employer was actually paying into the unemployment insurance system. If the employer hasn't, then you get zilch.

Not every job is telework either. Heck I would imagine that right now the most secure job is probably grocery store work and the grocery store I work at actually pays fairly well, not lifestyles of the rich and famous but I think to the point that I could probably live on my own once me and my family are in a position to sell our house and go into apartment living (my mom into a senior apartment and me and probably my sister too sharing a 2-bedroom unit though I'd rather we had our own 1-bedroom or perhaps even studio apartment spaces)

As for driver's licenses, we still have physical offices for that too, if only for the fact that there are times when going to the physical office to renew your license is required, namely if you need to update your photo along with renewal or if you're renewing a CDL (commercial driver's license). I was able to renew online this time but next time (in 2028) it's possible I will probably need to update my photo (I'll likely have more noticeable gray hair by then )

[Annoyed]

There will also be an increased emphasis on internet access for everyone. (Which will mean subsidized internet of some sort to the poor)

My employer has learned the hard way that telework isn’t something everyone can do. Some simply cannot afford internet, others live rural thus cannot get internet because the companies will not run their service too far out (makes sense, their profit/loss analysis usually means that for every line they run they need X number of subscribers to counteract that cost of running and maintaining the lines).

I know many get upset at the poor being given cell phones or internet, yet our society trends more and more towards online not trying to help all be connected means you deliberately disenfranchise whole segments of the population, cutting them off from resources. Gotta file for unemployment online, gotta renew your drivers’ license online (and as the push towards voter ID continues keeping people from getting ID becomes more and more of an issue).

Telemedicine is more and more popular yet impossible with out good internet. Same with telework. FIle your taxes online, renew your car tags online, pay your bills online, order groceries online (some of this is not possible for many since they cannot get credit cards due to a lack of income)

We are at the point where internet access is just as important to living as water, trash, electricity and heat.

In some ways our society is more fragmented - people not going to work, in other ways I’ve seen more neighborhood stuff going on. Not gatherings, but people out, walking, working in the yard, etc. Getting to know your neighbors and neighborhood because you’re home and out and able to see things.

Political aspects aside, (and I think you know where I stand on govt. provided freebies.) you raise the biggest barrier, which is customer density in rural areas. At this point in time, it just is prohibitively expensive for a carrier to spend the money to provide service in the boonies where there might be 1 customer in 10 square miles. The fact of the matter is no carrier can afford to do that, and you can't ignore facts, they come back and bite you in the arse no matter what you do.

There are satellite based services, which are crappy and very expensive but for now, that's the only solution for the boonies. There are advantages to living in the boonies, but there are downsides, too. Gotta take the bad with the good. Maybe all those Starling satellites might change that.

In metropolitan areas, it should be handled like utilities before deregulation (which was bad for customers in telco and electricity supplies)

As far as the cost, if the govt. is to provide access for low income, how about they provide it for all, regardless of income? That's the only way to be "fair" about it.

[mad_gater]

Political aspects aside, (and I think you know where I stand on govt. provided freebies.) you raise the biggest barrier, which is customer density in rural areas. At this point in time, it just is prohibitively expensive for a carrier to spend the money to provide service in the boonies where there might be 1 customer in 10 square miles. The fact of the matter is no carrier can afford to do that, and you can't ignore facts, they come back and bite you in the arse no matter what you do.

There are satellite based services, which are crappy and very expensive but for now, that's the only solution for the boonies. There are advantages to living in the boonies, but there are downsides, too. Gotta take the bad with the good. Maybe all those Starling satellites might change that.

In metropolitan areas, it should be handled like utilities before deregulation (which was bad for customers in telco and electricity supplies)

As far as the cost, if the govt. is to provide access for low income, how about they provide it for all, regardless of income? That's the only way to be "fair" about it.

Starling satellites? As in Henry Starling? Do we need to start looking for time-displaced USS Voyager crewmembers?

[Annoyed]

Starling satellites? As in Henry Starling? Do we need to start looking for time-displaced USS Voyager crewmembers?

It's actually "Starlink". Sorry about that. Elon Musk is planning a satellite based internet service.