The Covid19 thread

[Skydiver]

One thing about the testing.....there was a story on the news that some of the tests may have as much as a 50% failure rate - meaning giving the wrong result. Or that an accurate result may not be as much taking the test but WHEN you are tested.

Be exposed on Monday test negative through wednesday, but thur - sat you will get an accurate positive result, but after saturday you may test falsely negative or something like that.

So not only do we have a market flooded with unproven tests - people make a test, say it works, sell it, only to find out weeks/months later that they’re useless. They are pulled off the market, maybe, but who cares the manufacturer made their money so all’s good.

Now we also have tests that can give false readings because the when seems to be important. (And despite what’s said, for the majority of us you have to have symptoms to qualify to even be tested and that’s presuming your state has enough, not every state does. And for those without insurance or with certain types of insurance, you have to pay hundreds of dollars to be tested. Which also excludes up to 50% or more of our population because people can’t afford to pay to be tested - with tests that may or may not even work.


Overall the US is in for a very long, very sick summer because we seem to be headed down the ‘everyone get it and we’ll see who survives’ path.

[Annoyed]

Overall the US is in for a very long, very sick summer because we seem to be headed down the ‘everyone get it and we’ll see who survives’ path.

And the motivation for that? Making money. How many people will die so that businesses can re-open and get back to making money?

I strongly disagree with what our leadership on both sides of the political aisle are doing. We've got one side who wants to push reopening as fast as possible, despite the fact that we just don't know enough about this yet. CV has thrown us several curveballs and surprises, more than enough to be suspicious and warrant extreme caution. But they still want to push everyone back into their cubicles, placing the people who are at risk of serious complications due to pre-existing conditions in serious risk to life and health.

On the other side of the fence, we have folks who appear to be more cautious, but in reality are simply trying to use this crisis to further their existing political agendas, with little regard to actually helping the people who are in deep shiznit because of this.

[Skydiver]

This is where perception comes into it. Because the side you see as using it to pursue their agendas is the side I see as at least TRYING to save lives, and the other side I see as far more focused on making it vanish (ignore the man behind the curtain’ for a variety of reasons.

I do agree that dysfunction is on both sides of the aisle.

People are and will continue to die. Current levels is a 911 worth of people every day and a half or so.

Perhaps one reason the deaths are so tolerated is that they’re invisible. They are people swept away by ambulances to hospitals and you never see or hear from them again. They just go away. They just vanish, so I don’t think they are real to most people.

Now as the numbers rise and more and more people start to know the dead, perception may be changing. But it will change too slowly for the reality to really set in until it’s too late.(honestly it’s too late now, there is no containing this)

Right now folks are playing the odds. Hoping that they’re part of the 86% that get a light case. Hope that they have it asymptomatically. Hoping that they magically avoid it all together.

Some will. Some will also continue to deny reality. It’s not helped by the fact that - depending on which side of the aisle you get your info from - there will always be the debate whether or not the numbers are real. One side will always claim they are artificially inflated for a variety of reasons. Another will always claim they are artificially low for a variety of reasons. (As I understand, criteria for reporting the deaths is always changing, died from covid, died with covid, just as it can be claimed that some have a motivation to artificially inflate the numbers it can equally be argued that some have a motivation to artificially deflate the numbers.)

Add to that the general chaos of who died and of what and when we will never know how many REALLY died of it. And how many continue to die of it. People will be dying of COVID for months or the next few years.

Ultimately it will come down to some that are fortunate enough to have enlightened employers be able to avoid it a bit, while others that cannot will be further exposed. I am very grateful that I have an employer that knows and trusts science, that is allowing as many as possible to work from home and that I have the ability to stay home, go out as little as possible and hopefully be able to keep my job throughout this whole mess.

I know my situation is not shared by many.

[Annoyed]

This is where perception comes into it. Because the side you see as using it to pursue their agendas is the side I see as at least TRYING to save lives, and the other side I see as far more focused on making it vanish (ignore the man behind the curtain’ for a variety of reasons.

We can argue whether the man behind the curtain is doing the right things, but that's not the point. (In some ways, he's not, in my view)

But at least what he is doing is related to the the disease and the problems it has caused. There are other folks who are throwing everything INCLUDING the kitchen sink into what they're doing, although much of it is totally unrelated to the crisis at hand.

People are and will continue to die. Current levels is a 911 worth of people every day and a half or so.

Perhaps one reason the deaths are so tolerated is that they’re invisible. They are people swept away by ambulances to hospitals and you never see or hear from them again. They just go away. They just vanish, so I don’t think they are real to most people.

Yes, I hear that argument out of many, including the governor of my state. People are going to die. Yet, at the same time they're saying that, they are eagerly pushing forth plans to re-open everything.

Now as the numbers rise and more and more people start to know the dead, perception may be changing. But it will change too slowly for the reality to really set in until it’s too late.(honestly it’s too late now, there is no containing this)

Right now folks are playing the odds. Hoping that they’re part of the 86% that get a light case. Hope that they have it asymptomatically. Hoping that they magically avoid it all together.

That's actually a reasonable position to take for young folks and those who do not suffer from pre-existing conditions which increase the risks from catching CV. But we (our society) are planning actions which lump everyone into one size fits all, and that is going to put the people at substantial risk of serious harm into the creek, without a boat or a paddle.

Some will. Some will also continue to deny reality. It’s not helped by the fact that - depending on which side of the aisle you get your info from - there will always be the debate whether or not the numbers are real. One side will always claim they are artificially inflated for a variety of reasons. Another will always claim they are artificially low for a variety of reasons. (As I understand, criteria for reporting the deaths is always changing, died from covid, died with covid, just as it can be claimed that some have a motivation to artificially inflate the numbers it can equally be argued that some have a motivation to artificially deflate the numbers.)

Although I can certainly understand the motivation for under reporting, it makes it easier to push re-opening, I haven't encountered any documented cases of it. I have encountered the opposite. Don't know about your state, but here, a facility that reports a death caused by CV gets an additional $40K? I think it is from the state. So, even if a guy gets hit by a crashing Star Destroyer, if he has CV, it gets recorded as a CV death.

Ultimately it will come down to some that are fortunate enough to have enlightened employers be able to avoid it a bit, while others that cannot will be further exposed. I am very grateful that I have an employer that knows and trusts science, that is allowing as many as possible to work from home and that I have the ability to stay home, go out as little as possible and hopefully be able to keep my job throughout this whole mess.

I know my situation is not shared by many.

heh. You have a talent for understatement. In my experience, the only enlightenment most employers have at least with regard to their lower rank employees have is to get as much work as possible from them for as little money as possible. For one example, look into Charter/Spectrum and it's treatment of low level employees.

[Gatefan1976]

Just going to leave this here:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrews.../#1d10ecb3518b

[Skydiver]

I think much of this will come down to how people choose to believe and what they choose to accept as reality

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/04/ho...9-death-count/

How can there be an accurate counting of those that died of Covid when:

Lack of tests - weeks or months where there were no tests available or too few to test everyone presenting symptoms. In the beginning, even having symptoms wasn’t enough to get tested, tests were only available for those that had traveled to certain areas or could prove they were in contact with another positive person. So the slightly sick couldn’t even get tested, only the very sick or those that could prove they could have been exposed.

Recent information that’s come out that suggests that tests may only be accurate during a certain window and less accurate outside of that window (for a person without a serious case for the first couple of days your viral load is so low it doesn’t register on tests, then it will for a certain number of days, but as you build antibodies and fight back your viral load goes down, again not enough to register as positive)

Lack of reliable tests - almost 200 tests available, only a fraction of which were given FDA approval and even some of those have later been proven to be inaccurate

Hospitals so overwhelmed that they simply cannot get tests done - days or longer delays to get results back meaning the patient may have died days before the results come back

Saving the few tests they have access to for the living - and even those living must meet criteria to be tested.....I can’t get tested unless I present with symptoms. We have employers trying to say ‘must have a negative test to come back to work’ yet per policy, if you don’t have symptoms you cannot get tested.

People afraid to go to the hospital - due to fear of getting sicker, fear of losing contact with family, fear of racking up debt, so people die at home and who will waste tests on the dead?


Then there is the fact that any medical professional that lies on a chart risks losing their license or being jailed for medicare fraud. My mom was a nurse and, not just with insurance companies, but definitely with medicare patients charts could be and were audited on a regular basis. When medical personnel chart stuff they sign their name, attesting that they are telling the truth. If they lie - even if their bosses suggest that they lie - they run the risk of being caught by an audit and potentially jailed because medicare fraud is like embezzling.

Some of the allegations I think are motivated by people pushing forth their personal opinions as fact ‘I think it’s just the flu and overblown, so let’s look for something that supports that opinion and make it reality’. I think some of the others are also laying the groundwork for the government to not hold up it’s commitments to pay for patient care ‘let’s start the rumor that people are lying so that later if we decide not to pay we can drag that back up’.

[epg20]

a show has a reunion over the web

Psych Cast Reunites To Talk Classic Moments | on USA Network

[Annoyed]

When did the CDC get drafted?

About face! ( again )

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019...d-spreads.html

The virus does not spread easily in other ways

COVID-19 is a new disease and we are still learning about how it spreads. It may be possible for COVID-19 to spread in other ways, but these are not thought to be the main ways the virus spreads.

From touching surfaces or objects. It may be possible that a person can get COVID-19 by touching a surface or object that has the virus on it and then touching their own mouth, nose, or possibly their eyes. This is not thought to be the main way the virus spreads, but we are still learning more about this virus.

From animals to people. At this time, the risk of COVID-19 spreading from animals to people is considered to be low. Learn about COVID-19 and pets and other animals.

From people to animals. It appears that the virus that causes COVID-19 can spread from people to animals in some situations. CDC is aware of a small number of pets worldwide, including cats and dogs, reported to be infected with the virus that causes COVID-19, mostly after close contact with people with COVID-19. Learn what you should do if you have pets.

Weren't they telling us that it lives for days on surfaces and such? Just like they told us that masks were not effective.

I'm sorry, but I don't trust a word they say about this anymore.

[Gatefan1976]

like testing is not effective?

I'd rather trust an organization that can evolve it's views based on science und understanding than, well pretty much anyone.

[Womble]

US biggest source by far of Israel’s COVID-19 cases, genome sequencing shows

...Seven out of every 10 Israelis who caught the virus to date were infected with a haplotype — variant — that arrived in the country from the United States, Tel Aviv University evolutionary virologist Adi Stern, who led the study, told The Times of Israel.

She said that just 30 percent of people who arrived in Israel during the crisis came from America, so she was “very surprised” by how widely their haplotypes of the virus spread. She thinks it may reflect, in part, the unusually high level of interaction that Jewish visitors from the Diaspora have with Israeli citizens.

The pattern of the spread was also surprising, she said. “We think that about 5% of the infected population spread the virus in 80% of cases,” Stern revealed, explaining this means that just 800 people are believed to be responsible for four out of five Israeli virus cases.

This is suggested by the fact that numerous patients have genomes of the virus that are 100% identical, “and we would expect far more variety if there was a more varied transmission chain,” Stern said.

...Stern said she does not know why people arriving from America were such a major source of Israel’s virus cases, but made two suggestions.

There were some much-publicized failures in enforced quarantining of new arrivals, and Stern said it may reflect poor enforcement with regard to American flights in particular.

She said that the figures may also reflect the “behavior patterns” of people who land in Israel from America.

While people landing from elsewhere are often foreign tourists who have limited contact with Israeli citizens, those arriving from America often have lots of interactions, she said. Many are Israeli citizens returning home, or Jews who live in the Diaspora and have family and social connections in Israel.

After America, coronavirus haplotypes that infected Israelis came from Belgium (8%), France (6%), England (5%), Spain (3%), Italy (2%), the Philippines (2%), Australia (2%) and Russia (2%), according to the study.

One explanation I would suggest is that a large part of American arrivals in recent months have been American Orthodox Jews who hurried to emigrate from the land of opportunity and private healthcare to Israel to enjoy our single-payer healthcare. Many of them settled in Bnei Braq and Jerusalem where the population largely ignored quarantine regulations until the government sent in the army.

[Gatefan1976]

One explanation I would suggest is that a large part of American arrivals in recent months have been American Orthodox Jews who hurried to emigrate from the land of opportunity and private healthcare to Israel to enjoy our single-payer healthcare. Many of them settled in Bnei Braq and Jerusalem where the population largely ignored quarantine regulations until the government sent in the army.

The sarcasm is palpable

[Annoyed]

like testing is not effective?

I'd rather trust an organization that can evolve it's views based on science und understanding than, well pretty much anyone.

That would be fine, but I don't think the changes are based on "science and understanding". Just like other similar claims supposedly based on science, they are more based on politics.

They've already admitted they misled the public about the masks in order to stop the peons from buying them up, trying to save the supply for medical folks and such. And now, the latest change just happens to support the politically driven push to re-open everything too soon.

You think that's a coincidence? Political Science, maybe.. but certainly not science.

[Annoyed]

One explanation I would suggest is that a large part of American arrivals in recent months have been American Orthodox Jews who hurried to emigrate from the land of opportunity and private healthcare to Israel to enjoy our single-payer healthcare. Many of them settled in Bnei Braq and Jerusalem where the population largely ignored quarantine regulations until the government sent in the army.

The question for Israelites (is that term still valid today?) would be why their govt. didn't slam the door shut, which is what they should have done.

[Falcon Horus]

Let me start with some numbers from Belgium.

All stores have re-opened since May 18. Outdoor sports are back for groups of max 20 and under the guidance of a professional coach. Indoor sports are still prohibited. Schools are open again for 6, 7, 12 and 18 year olds which equals to the first, second and sixth year of primary school, and the final year of highschool. They have class on alternating days with social distancing and face mask guidelines.

Our next phase of re-opening won't happen until after the 8th of June, depending on how the current one evolves. So far all is well. Our infection rate is down, cases are down, deaths are down -- significantly from the previous weeks.

Facemasks are mandatory for everyone over 12 on public transport and strongly advised for going shopping or whenever you're in a situation where the social distance cannot be guaranteed.

My company has a 2-days-at-the-office/3-days-at-home work plan in effect, since only 50% of the office space can be occupied at any given time, which means we have to play musical chairs. Half of our desk spaces has been taped off (luckily not my desk) and we have to schedule our office time. I don't plan to go back until the first week of June since I want to see how the second week of our halfway normal out-of-lockdown-situation progresses -- picked wednesday and friday since those days are relatively quiet ones as far as traffic goes. We are still upholding technical unemployement until, at the very least, the 30th of June, which means all of us have 1 day "off" each week until the end of June except for a week with a holiday so not during the first week since monday the 1st of June is a national holiday.

Our current statistics:
1,415 patients are still in hospital, among which 268 are in ICU
15,123 have been released from hospital and declared cured
9,212 have died, of which more than half died in hospital settings and are confirmed cases, the other half are care home deaths and contain confirmed and suspected cases (reminder that Belgium has the most accurate death stat in the world)

In the passed 24 hours:
56 new patients were admitted to hospitals
26 deaths were recorded, of which 14 died in hospital and 12 in a care home of which 67% was confirmed by testing

So, our steady decline continues.

****

Now onwards to the quoted posts...

In other words, even if they did come up with a vaccine there likely wouldn’t be much call for it since colds are generally seen as a minor annoyance.

A MINOR ANNOYANCE!!
There's nothing minor about a stuffed nose, going through tissues and realizing you didn't buy a new box to continue that streak. Sneezing like there's no tomorrow. Coughing those lungs out and apologizing to the cats for scaring them each time you do. No smell or taste... just snot -- and a person produces a lot snot in their lifetime.

Tests and contact tracing and stringent one by one quarantine would have been much more efficient.

Our contact center have found that people aren't always honest about who they had contact with, especially since our contacts are supposed to be limited to 4 other people at this particular time.

Instead our leadership chose the denial route, downplaying and ignoring until it was too late.

You could say that -- 94,000 and counting deaths. That's a rather impressive number.

To show how many that are -- my city's demographic number = 101,828 people
The American number of deaths is near the equivalent of my city -- all dead. A ghost town, you could say.

I saw that flags go half-staff to honor the victims of the pandemic. To honor them -- there's no honor to remember. They didn't fight in a war. They were slaughtered by an incompetent federal government.

We are the dysfunctional states of america.

You have been for a while now. This is just another notch on the belt, I'm afraid.

Meanwhile, my travel agency is generating income through chartering private flights and cargo deliveries - including live sheep.

That was probably an interesting flight.

Israel's flagship airline, EL AL, is in serious trouble. It was already losing money before the covid-19 crisis. The government just agreed to give it a $400 million loan guarantee, conditional on "streamlining" - as in firing 30% of manpower, eliminating employee benefits such as free flights, cutting executive salaries by 20% and injection of $100 million of capital by EL AL owners. EL AL's workers union will not have the layoffs part and plans to battle it in court, even though it means EL AL may be forced to liquidate as a result. Just in case, I pulled out all my frequent flyer miles as gift cards, and we've cashed them in yesterday for some kitchen stuff. Felt nice to do some "free shopping".

Pretty much what's happening to Brussels Airlines.
And many other airlines in the world.

So, obviously, since this virus may be *mutating*, what is the point of a vaccine?

The point is protection, even if like the flu shot, it's a previous version, it might still make getting it less severe than without a shot. Give that immune system a fair fighting chance.

And some idiots are bragging about the *trikini* bathing suits, as a new fashion statement

Hey, nobody's saying you have to wear all parts of it, except for the face mask.

Next time any of you folks here get sick with stomach bugs, try the BRAT diet. It works!
B = banana
R = rice (probably white rice is better)
A = Applesauce, apples
T = Tea or Toast

Yup... so says my Doc as well.

I think of its origins as from bats / pangolins. Not sure why certain animals / critters have natural immunities to those things and yet wreck havoc on other living creatures with it, but that's where the problems start.

For anyone interested, an article on Animal Carriers about everything you probably didn't want to know about diseases originating from animals.

And mice in the american southwest carry the plague. But since people are not living with rodents in their homes anymore - and we have antibiotics - there are very rarely cases.

Did you have to say that? Those poor mice -- they can't help it, okay.

One reason Ebola can be so relatively easy to contain is that a person can be exposed, show symptoms and die within a week, so they can only get so far away especially in a third world country with no roads.

Yeah, and also... no asymptomatics when it comes to Ebola.

[Womble]

The question for Israelites (is that term still valid today?) would be why their govt. didn't slam the door shut, which is what they should have done.

It is the raison d'etre of this country to be that one door that never gets slammed shut for Jewish people around the world. The world (USA included) slammed too many doors shut on us the last time Jewish people needed shelter.