The Covid19 thread

[Annoyed]

A few ideas to perhaps attract better businesses or businesses that pay better....you always hear of govt A giving a huge tax break to business B if they relocate to their community. Usually this looks like the business not having to pay property tax for a certain number of years, making it cheaper to be there. And the city/town depends on the income and sales taxes generated by employees to pay for any infrastructure built to accommodate business B or to be a general boost to the local economy.

Heard of it? We're choking on it. There are many tax abatement programs at both state and local levels in my neck of the woods, most of them are just places to hide corruption. But, even assuming they are as pure as the driven snow, do you want government picking winners and losers?

Well, what if the tax breaks given to any new business is proportional to the average salary of the average employee? (Don’t let the bosses’ salary skew the numbers up, look at what the majority of workers make).

What if for national and international corporations tax breaks are proportional to how many jobs are in the US - ship more jobs over seas, you get less tax breaks, keep them here, you get more.

I'd rather see no preferential treatment for any individual company, but I want to see the desk stacked in favor of US workers overall. Best way to do that is with protectionist trade policies, tariffs and such.

The hardest part of any of this....politicians making decisions based on what their corporate ‘donors’ tell them to do, not what may have an overall better result for the nation as a whole.

You're right there. But how do you take money out of politics in an era where just getting your message out is very expensive? Sure, I can think of ways to do that, but they wouldn't fly and might not be constitutional.

[Skydiver]

The clearest way would be to keep politics from being a career. Term limits or treating political office like Jury Duty....your time comes up and you do your service then go back to your regular life.

The former is probably the most practical. THe latter....well given the abysmal lack of knowledge amongst your average US Citizen I wouldn’t want these people running a bake sale much less making public policy.

Now, we’ve delved into off topic so we’ll get it back onto the topic of Covid (because I have zero interest in endless PMs)

[Womble]

But, since over 60% of workers are employed in small businesses, such laws don't help over 60% of workers.

You're right, the minimum wage laws should be for everyone. Here, for example, even the foreign guest workers like caregivers cannot be paid less than the legal minimum wage.

I'm saying it's better to use trade policy to force upward pressure on wages using market pressures, rather than direct regulation. Remove the pressure relief valves that business uses to keep wages low, and let demand push wages up.

Okay. So let's take an example of business process outsourcing. An average call center employee's salary is $2150 monthly. In the Philippines, it is $400 monthly, five times less. Therefore, it makes no business sense whatsoever to operate a USA-based call center. How do you create "market pressure" to reverse that?




Back to Covid-19, as Skydiver says. Israel's flagship airline, EL AL, is in serious trouble. It was already losing money before the covid-19 crisis. The government just agreed to give it a $400 million loan guarantee, conditional on "streamlining" - as in firing 30% of manpower, eliminating employee benefits such as free flights, cutting executive salaries by 20% and injection of $100 million of capital by EL AL owners. EL AL's workers union will not have the layoffs part and plans to battle it in court, even though it means EL AL may be forced to liquidate as a result. Just in case, I pulled out all my frequent flyer miles as gift cards, and we've cashed them in yesterday for some kitchen stuff. Felt nice to do some "free shopping".

[mad_gater]

You're right, the minimum wage laws should be for everyone. Here, for example, even the foreign guest workers like caregivers cannot be paid less than the legal minimum wage.



Okay. So let's take an example of business process outsourcing. An average call center employee's salary is $2150 monthly. In the Philippines, it is $400 monthly, five times less. Therefore, it makes no business sense whatsoever to operate a USA-based call center. How do you create "market pressure" to reverse that?




Back to Covid-19, as Skydiver says. Israel's flagship airline, EL AL, is in serious trouble. It was already losing money before the covid-19 crisis. The government just agreed to give it a $400 million loan guarantee, conditional on "streamlining" - as in firing 30% of manpower, eliminating employee benefits such as free flights, cutting executive salaries by 20% and injection of $100 million of capital by EL AL owners. EL AL's workers union will not have the layoffs part and plans to battle it in court, even though it means EL AL may be forced to liquidate as a result. Just in case, I pulled out all my frequent flyer miles as gift cards, and we've cashed them in yesterday for some kitchen stuff. Felt nice to do some "free shopping".

I used to work in a call center....I can tell you with 100% certainty that my wages weren't even close to being half that $2150 in a month

back to Covid-19.....for me it's nice to be appreciated......grocery work isn't for everyone but it pays the bills for the most part and can be enjoyable

[Annoyed]

Okay. So let's take an example of business process outsourcing. An average call center employee's salary is $2150 monthly. In the Philippines, it is $400 monthly, five times less. Therefore, it makes no business sense whatsoever to operate a USA-based call center. How do you create "market pressure" to reverse that?

Actual physical products are not the only thing that tariffs can be applied to. Levy a tariff on a per call basis, so that there is no economic advantage, and in fact there is a disadvantage to sending that call center to the Philippines or whereever. Make the tarif so that the labor costs ends up being $2350 / Mo. if the person answering the phone isn't in the U.S.

Back to Covid-19, as Skydiver says. Israel's flagship airline, EL AL, is in serious trouble. It was already losing money before the covid-19 crisis. The government just agreed to give it a $400 million loan guarantee, conditional on "streamlining" - as in firing 30% of manpower, eliminating employee benefits such as free flights, cutting executive salaries by 20% and injection of $100 million of capital by EL AL owners. EL AL's workers union will not have the layoffs part and plans to battle it in court, even though it means EL AL may be forced to liquidate as a result. Just in case, I pulled out all my frequent flyer miles as gift cards, and we've cashed them in yesterday for some kitchen stuff. Felt nice to do some "free shopping".

Yeah, they're doing something for the airlines here too, that, and anything travel-related is probably going to have long term issues.

I can't speak for how airlines are perceived there, but around here, the the public is about as far from sympathetic to their plight as it could get, they are one of the most hated industries that exist, as a result of how they've treated their customers. ( https://www.forbes.com/sites/blakemo...-by-customers/ ) so the public won't put up with exorbitant bailouts for them.

And in my own personal opinion, that hatred is well deserved due to the way they have treated customers. Maybe that industry shouldn't have been de-regulated back in the eighties.

And yeah, it won't surprise me if your airline unions drive themselves out of their jobs.

[Womble]

Actual physical products are not the only thing that tariffs can be applied to. Levy a tariff on a per call basis, so that there is no economic advantage, and in fact there is a disadvantage to sending that call center to the Philippines or whereever. Make the tarif so that the labor costs ends up being $2350 / Mo. if the person answering the phone isn't in the U.S.

Tariffs on a per-call basis? LMAO! In the age of VoIP when I call an American number and only the cloud computers know where the call gets routed? What's next, per-email tariffs? Per-Whatsapp-message?

Yeah, they're doing something for the airlines here too, that, and anything travel-related is probably going to have long term issues.

Me. I'm travel-related. I am going to have long term issues.

I can't speak for how airlines are perceived there, but around here, the the public is about as far from sympathetic to their plight as it could get, they are one of the most hated industries that exist, as a result of how they've treated their customers. ( https://www.forbes.com/sites/blakemo...-by-customers/ ) so the public won't put up with exorbitant bailouts for them.

And in my own personal opinion, that hatred is well deserved due to the way they have treated customers. Maybe that industry shouldn't have been de-regulated back in the eighties.

Back in the eighties, when most people couldn't dream of flying, you mean.

I have my share of issues with the airlines, right now more than ever. (Try telling people in the middle of a pandemic that their airline isn't giving their money back but only offers to reschedule them to December at the latest). The recent showdown between IATA and travel agents over BSP payments basically boiled down to "you pay us all you owe us right now as normal, we pay you what we owe you at some undetermined future date,maybe"; God bless EU regulators for stopping that nonsense. But the majority of complaints by customers aren't worth the storage space their emails take up. Air travel is a very confusing business for the uninitiated and it's normal that people who don't understand it, but it should be beyond obvious that the people who price-hunt on Expedia, Skyscanner and Kayak are the ones who brought about the "everything costs extra" revolution.

And yeah, it won't surprise me if your airline unions drive themselves out of their jobs.

Unions have a dark side, no argument there.

[Annoyed]

Tariffs on a per-call basis? LMAO! In the age of VoIP when I call an American number and only the cloud computers know where the call gets routed? What's next, per-email tariffs? Per-Whatsapp-message?

Call center management scrupulously counts every call, email, IM or any other customer contact that comes in the door; that's how they track calls/hour employee performance, for one example of a reason. Another stat they obsess over is cost per call. That data can easily be used to set tariffs.

Me. I'm travel-related. I am going to have long term issues.

I know, and I don't see a way that industry comes out of this without major cutbacks and grief. I'm sorry for you.

Back in the eighties, when most people couldn't dream of flying, you mean.

Cheaper, Faster is not always the best goal.

I have my share of issues with the airlines, right now more than ever. (Try telling people in the middle of a pandemic that their airline isn't giving their money back but only offers to reschedule them to December at the latest). The recent showdown between IATA and travel agents over BSP payments basically boiled down to "you pay us all you owe us right now as normal, we pay you what we owe you at some undetermined future date,maybe"; God bless EU regulators for stopping that nonsense. But the majority of complaints by customers aren't worth the storage space their emails take up. Air travel is a very confusing business for the uninitiated and it's normal that people who don't understand it, but it should be beyond obvious that the people who price-hunt on Expedia, Skyscanner and Kayak are the ones who brought about the "everything costs extra" revolution.

US airlines are playing games with refunds for cancelled flights too. I thing the govt. is going to slap them down, hard and force them to pay up. But the fact that they are trying is a good example of why they are hated.

[SGalisa]

I used to work in a call center....I can tell you with 100% certainty that my wages weren't even close to being half that $2150 in a month

I've been tracking my grocery list spending since beginning of April. It's over $1,000 now. Some of that was home repair / improvement items, because we had to replace the floor (from a leaking roof last year). Just saying some of my grocery bills would be a whole lot less if my hubby could tolerate eating pasta (OMG!!! I love lasagna & homemade cheddar macaroni..!).. he hates it and anything with tomatoes in, thus, I have to buy other foods instead. No tuna salads either... another potential cost saver, but we have to get 2 different mayo's because I like one brand and he hates it, but he likes the another brand, that I don't like. Obviously, we didn't marry each other because of food likes...!

back to Covid-19.....for me it's nice to be appreciated......grocery work isn't for everyone but it pays the bills for the most part and can be enjoyable

Trust me, I definitely appreciate ALL you folks do. I used to do cashier and some stock work, so I know what it's like, especially at "rush hour". I can't do it now, because of my degenerative spinal condition. I can't even shop without a brace to carry heavy gallon-sized and weighted items.

The flu shot isn't a vaccine since it's just a mixture of last year's flu strains, hoping it'll protect again in the new season. If there's a new strain, the old strain is either useless or only half effective.

Same will be true for the Covid-19 shot -- considering its mutations, it's impossible to predict what strain will be next so you can only get the same sort of preventive immunity as when you get a flu shot.

And, in further demonstrations of our stupidity....

We are apparently in the middle of discovering a new problem associated with CV...

So, obviously, since this virus may be *mutating*, what is the point of a vaccine? The COVID19 vaccine J&J is working on is more to TRACK people who are given permission to go back to work. If the medicine is even IN the vaccine, it might not work, or make the situation worse, as the "flu shots" do to some people with severe reactions to them.

Go back to Square One. Start over again. duh. or ugh!

[SGalisa]

And, in further demonstrations of our stupidity....

We are apparently in the middle of discovering a new problem associated with CV...
. . .
But governments keep right on pushing the re-opening as fast as possible....

Idiots.

Most of our (D) controlled states have been shut down for 2 whole months now. This cannot go on to infinitum, but seems it will. California is now "shut-down" for the entire summer. DUH... who didn't see *that* happening...?!

And some idiots are bragging about the *trikini* bathing suits, as a new fashion statement (Ooooo wait! Now ladies will have "tan" line marks on their faces! Not Cool...!) ... Wait til total coverups end up being enforced.

Don't expect the other states to OPEN up any time before September ----IF---- even then. For the people it is affecting on both Essential and NON-Essential sides, it's almost like being held in a hostage situation, with *certain* freedoms, yet NO guarantee of a safe and secured future.

This is no longer going to be an issue of "Survival of the fittest" but
a "Survival of the RICHEST" (in spite of health issues!). There are already too many complaints on the internet discussion sites about people NOT caring for HEALTH over finances. Well, take a look at this scenario below...

Those who have (or *seem* to have) secure retirement funds want to keep the world shut down.. not just into September, but past the (USA) November elections...! Those who do NOT have such $$ and barely enough for a few months to live on, if that, want to open the workforces, so they can have a fair chance at retiring... and not several years later, which is what the current operation of things is heading into if the DEM Governors (& supporters) keep their states "sheltered in place" to infinity.

I don't think Social Security increases while people are OUT on unemployment. It (SS) only goes UP for each person, while that person *is* working. And $800 per month is NOT enough to live on without other retirement saved elsewhere. Certainly NOT for the next 40 years! Jeeshe! And certainly NOT in a state where taxes are over $5,000 per year, plus utilities, and other necessities.

The financial problem "of the many" is going to become an unhealthy, "hey, gotta stand on these soup lines... because the economy crashed". That translates as meaning standing ON LINE with a bunch of other people, maybe 6 feet apart, and being handed food that may have "GERMS" in it too from its handlers. GREAT DEPRESSION lines all over again, but for a different reason. Great thinking for whoever supported this idiocy.

[SGalisa]

what we colloquially call "stomach flu" isn't really the flu as it's not caused by any strain of influenza but mostly by a family of viruses called noroviruses (some stomach illnesses might have bacterial causes)

Oh... bad memories... that roadtrip around Dingle is not remembered for its beautiful landscapes.

Next time any of you folks here get sick with stomach bugs, try the BRAT diet. It works!
B = banana
R = rice (probably white rice is better)
A = Applesauce, apples
T = Tea or Toast

Not necessarily in the above order. I've come back to life after just taking applesauce for about 6 hours, then moving on to toast... and within a day or 2, I can eat normally again. Pectin is in the applesauce and needed for the stomach. Toast is just starch to absorb the acids. Rice also helps in absorbing process. Bananas just bind you up, but also contain needed potassium; so if you can take a vitamin tablet instead, that might help if you don't have or like bananas.

The reason why I mentioned this at all, is because I was sooooooooooo awful sick with the norovirus one year, that nothing, and I mean NOTHING stayed down... not ginger ale, 7-up, sprite, saltine crackers, not even water. I couldn't even move off the sofa, when I was talking with the nurse. Plus, she said the doctors' office was full, and no appointments were available for 2 days.. I needed HELP immediately... Short of going to ER (which we didn't even think about), she suggested the BRAT diet. I tried it, and it literally saved my life. I swear by it now... well, until some sicko scientist messes with that.

Never got the flu since stopping flu shots, too. Only get the norovirus, instead, which I think is tons times worse..!

SARS-Cov-2...
Factsheet this way by Sciensano ... (27 pages) *

The ...cliff-note version by Thomas Michiels, researcher Molecular Virology at the Duve Institute and Professor at UCLouvain...*

* Neither article contain the conspiricy theory the virus originated from a lab.

There you go... origin defined. It's a member of the SARS-virus family.
Also, has already mutated since it's first confirmed case in Wuhan, which it quite easy to follow around the world.

. . .
Then let's call this the Bat Flu, or Pangolin Flu, like the Bird Flu and the Swine Flu.

I think of its origins as from bats / pangolins. Not sure why certain animals / critters have natural immunities to those things and yet wreck havoc on other living creatures with it, but that's where the problems start. Stay away from the problem area! Armadillos, are believed to naturally carry Leprosy.
Certain bats in Africa carried the Ebola virus in them, and that got transferred over to humans. Same issue. Sad world we live in, but... for whatever the reasons, some people don't stay away from the *problem* (sort of similar to STDs, too) and eventually become transmitters of these diseases.

[Skydiver]

And mice in the american southwest carry the plague. But since people are not living with rodents in their homes anymore - and we have antibiotics - there are very rarely cases.

While call centers do track all their calls in and out does anyone REALLY expect them to accurately report those calls? Especially when each call reported costs them a fee?

Seriously if phone calls could be accurately logged the robotelemarketing would have been easy to shut down years ago.

What’s the main issue with COVID is the long incubation period. The fact that a person can have it and carry it and spread it for up to two weeks before they show symptoms. And could potentially also spread it after they recover as well (of course shedding the virus and shedding enough to make someone else sick may not be the same thing)

One reason Ebola can be so relatively easy to contain is that a person can be exposed, show symptoms and die within a week, so they can only get so far away especially in a third world country with no roads.

[Annoyed]

While call centers do track all their calls in and out does anyone REALLY expect them to accurately report those calls? Especially when each call reported costs them a fee?

Seriously if phone calls could be accurately logged the robotelemarketing would have been easy to shut down years ago.

Same answer to both. Aggressive enforcement combined with draconian penalties oh, say, $50,000 per incident (one call is an incident, multiply it out. )
Also, no exceptions for anyone. We were far too lax with robocallers/scammers/telemarketers & such.

What’s the main issue with COVID is the long incubation period. The fact that a person can have it and carry it and spread it for up to two weeks before they show symptoms. And could potentially also spread it after they recover as well (of course shedding the virus and shedding enough to make someone else sick may not be the same thing)

We don't yet know what all this thing does. We still haven't settled the immunity question, and now there are reports of kids who have gotten it get some sort of aftereffect?

[Skydiver]

The pediatric inflammatory disease/syndrome seems to be something that can affect children 4-6 weeks after they have covid. The current train of thought is that their immune system goes into overdrive and attacks their own body. Fortunately it’s like an existing syndrome, Kawalsky Syndrome and the children that get it seem to respond to that treatment, so hopefully with diligent parents and health care providers future deaths can be avoided.

[Annoyed]

Speaking of not knowing much about CV yet...

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/0...navirus-261873

Thirteen sailors aboard the aircraft carrier USS Theodore Roosevelt have tested positive again for Covid-19 after recovering from the disease and returning to the ship, which has been stranded in Guam since late March after an outbreak of the virus, according to two U.S. defense officials.

[P-90_177]

Update from a country that seems to be handling things much better.

Norway now has 232 dead. with around 50 people still hospitalised. Between 8000 to 9000 confirmed positive cases overall since the outbreak began. I'm not sure on the number of recoveries but I'm told it's somewhere around 7000. The country is slowly starting to get back to normal with schools now being open and people returning to work, though people who can work from home are still advised to do so.

Restaurants and cafes can be open as long as they can guarantee a suitable distance between people which I think is one metre here so people like myself that work in the cafe industry are still largely laid off at least for a little longer though I am told by my work that they are prepared to take people back on as soon as they are able. I'm probably looking at a matter of a few weeks before I am working again.

Today, the 17th May is Norway's Constitution Day and the biggest national holiday. Normally this involves parades of school children representing all the schools of their locality, and in Oslo a congregation of the schools in front of the Royal Palace and some pageantry before the Royal Family. This has still taken place today but at a reduced capacity. One child from each school was there at the Royal palace presenting their school flag and the Royal Guard were marching and playing. The public were prevented from congregating to watch but it was televised. The Royal Family are also doing things the other way around to usual, so instead of the parades of children coming to the palace, they are driving and visiting all the areas in Oslo where kids are gathered with their schools (where they have more space to stay a good distance apart)

On the whole Norwegians aren't great at social distancing when they are out and about but they are generally conscientious to stick to the rules you find in public places. Though nothing stops Norwegians from having BBQ's in the local public parks rain or shine.

Many people here are still very wary of the restrictions being lifted, but as an outsider living here it feels so much better than the daily news I'm getting from the UK.