Discussion about hot topics trending today

[Annoyed]

If you choose to do something based on your beliefs despite your own feelings, the choice is forced. It could be right, it could be wrong, but it is no longer your choice, something else is driving that choice.

Not true. There is the choice of whether to decide based on those beliefs or not.

f you choose not to decide, You still have made a choice

Rush, "Free Will" 1980

The whole song is a good sidebar to this discussion.

[Gatefan1976]

Not true. There is the choice of whether to decide based on those beliefs or not.

I said IF YOU CHOOSE to do it based on your beliefs, so I don't know what you are talking about.
Thing is, most people with deeply held beliefs, no matter what they are will do what they are informed by those beliefs, even if it runs contrary to their own thoughts, thus precluding the notion of free will.

[Chaka-Z0]

I said IF YOU CHOOSE to do it based on your beliefs, so I don't know what you are talking about.
Thing is, most people with deeply held beliefs, no matter what they are will do what they are informed by those beliefs, even if it runs contrary to their own thoughts, thus precluding the notion of free will.

Isn't it still a conscious choice to choose according to these beliefs? One could choose not to choose to make a choice that seems forced? Or are you saying that free will is tainted by anchored beliefs?

And now my nose is bleeding...

[aretood2]

If you choose to do something based on your beliefs despite your own feelings, the choice is forced. It could be right, it could be wrong, but it is no longer your choice, something else is driving that choice.

The problem is that a choice is still made. Beliefs is such a broad thing. I may want to kill you after you accidentally ran over my grandparents, but my beliefs tell me not to...and said beliefs don't necessarily have to be religious in nature. But I think we can all agree that I shouldn't kill you. And later down the road I might be glad that I didn't because no matter how you cut it, it would only make things worse for me.

Furthermore, what happens when a deeply held belief is violated by choice due to contrary thoughts? Plenty of people who believe in maintaining virginity until marriage end up having premarital sex. So are deeply held beliefs so forceful that no possible choice against it can be made? Apparently not. But then that means any choice made based on those deeply held beliefs could have easily gone the other direction. Take swearing for example. I Strongly believe it to be wrong, however I'd be a liar if I told you that I have not let a choice word or two slip out in the past few weeks. So do they override my free will or not? How can it be both?

Let's say Annoyed-Ali (because why not) is fasting for Ramadan. This morning he felt supper hungry. Oh he's healthy and everything, it's just that he would really really want to eat something. He is thinking about it...but he is a devout Muslim and it is Ramadan. He decides that he can take a bite of cake...which leads to another...and then another...and a complete slice is in his sinful stomach. But then the next month he is offered 1 million dollars to eat bacon, and he refuses even though he would love and really wants to be a millionaire. So what is it? Do his beliefs make his choices not actual free choices? How can you tell?

Is this an impossible scenario? No, it may be unlikely but not impossible and it probably happens just like the premarital sex example I gave (Well, maybe not the million dollars). The point is, that if belief is not able to override free will in these instances, then can we say it does in general? But then again, aren't beliefs inescapably always part of every decision we make? No one really knows that a given choice, no matter how tempting, is right or wrong. We all believe one way or another, otherwise moral relativism goes out the window (Which I don't think is a path you'd want to take).

In fact, hard determinists use belief as an example of why free will doesn't exist, it's one of the three components of making a choice. Belief, Desire, and Temperament. Those three things limit our choices and are caused by outside or physical factors. Tempermerament can be based on your genetics or brain chemistry. Beliefs are how you were brought up. Desire can also be blamed on similar grounds. The choices those three things lead to can be limited by availability and other external factors. Therefore every choice is a result of a chain of cause and effect, predetermined by the natural process of things.

I'm not a determinist, but the argument you made is a building block of hard determinism.

[Annoyed]

Yes, this has about the same chance in hell that the dream of splitting NY does, but why not let the voters decide?

http://thehill.com/homenews/state-wa...ate-into-three

They had enough support to get the measure on the ballot, why is the state afraid to let the voters decide?

[SoulReaver]

Let's say Annoyed-Ali (because why not) is fasting for Ramadan

Alinnoyed should do a ramadan to cleanse his psyche: 30 days without watching Fox News

[Annoyed]

Alinnoyed should do a ramadan to cleanse his psyche: 30 days without watching Fox News

Actually, I don't even watch Fox news. Or any other, for that matter. I prefer to read articles on the 'net, and Fox is just one of several sites I read.

But I'll wait and see how you do spending a month reading heritage.org for a month.

[Chaka-Z0]

Alinnoyed should do a ramadan to cleanse his psyche: 30 days without watching Fox News

And once Ramadan is done, Mohannoyed will partake of a democrat instead of a sheep.

[Annoyed]

And once Ramadan is done, Mohannoyed will partake of a democrat instead of a sheep.

Democrats ARE sheep.

[Gatefan1976]

Democrats ARE sheep.

Republicans are traitors.
Do I add the smiley face?

[Gatefan1976]

The problem is that a choice is still made. Beliefs is such a broad thing. I may want to kill you after you accidentally ran over my grandparents, but my beliefs tell me not to...and said beliefs don't necessarily have to be religious in nature. But I think we can all agree that I shouldn't kill you. And later down the road I might be glad that I didn't because no matter how you cut it, it would only make things worse for me.

Never said they had to be religious tood.
But, "down the road" is cause and effect, ant that is certainly an issue.

Furthermore, what happens when a deeply held belief is violated by choice due to contrary thoughts? Plenty of people who believe in maintaining virginity until marriage end up having premarital sex. So are deeply held beliefs so forceful that no possible choice against it can be made? Apparently not. But then that means any choice made based on those deeply held beliefs could have easily gone the other direction. Take swearing for example. I Strongly believe it to be wrong, however I'd be a liar if I told you that I have not let a choice word or two slip out in the past few weeks. So do they override my free will or not? How can it be both?

You just proved that siding against your beliefs is not "easy", you actually think and reflect on that choice.
Anyone who actually has "deeply held beliefs", religious or not, will not find it "easy" to contravene them.
Thinking before actions, that's the greatest asset of an external belief system, no matter if I like, dislike, or disagree with it.

Let's say Annoyed-Ali (because why not) is fasting for Ramadan. This morning he felt supper hungry. Oh he's healthy and everything, it's just that he would really really want to eat something. He is thinking about it...but he is a devout Muslim and it is Ramadan. He decides that he can take a bite of cake...which leads to another...and then another...and a complete slice is in his sinful stomach. But then the next month he is offered 1 million dollars to eat bacon, and he refuses even though he would love and really wants to be a millionaire. So what is it? Do his beliefs make his choices not actual free choices? How can you tell?

That's easy.
Do they contradict what he claims to believe in.

Is this an impossible scenario? No, it may be unlikely but not impossible and it probably happens just like the premarital sex example I gave (Well, maybe not the million dollars). The point is, that if belief is not able to override free will in these instances, then can we say it does in general? But then again, aren't beliefs inescapably always part of every decision we make? No one really knows that a given choice, no matter how tempting, is right or wrong. We all believe one way or another, otherwise moral relativism goes out the window (Which I don't think is a path you'd want to take).

Beliefs ARE capable of contravening free will. You want a good example?
Child suicide bombers.
They have neither freedom, or will to go against what they are indoctrinated to do. Moral relativism is something they never have the chance to even explore.
Get them young, and keep them dumb is the driving force behind organized religions, and I HATE them for that, I honestly really, HATE them for it, because it removes any sense of choice, or self, or exploration. If you got the choice, I give credit to your parents, not the religion. I walked away from the church like practices of my religion some 20 years ago for wanting to do this, teach your kids only one form of religion.
Gimme a break, I can have only ONE pantheon, in a world that has many???

In fact, hard determinists use belief as an example of why free will doesn't exist, it's one of the three components of making a choice. Belief, Desire, and Temperament. Those three things limit our choices and are caused by outside or physical factors. Tempermerament can be based on your genetics or brain chemistry. Beliefs are how you were brought up. Desire can also be blamed on similar grounds. The choices those three things lead to can be limited by availability and other external factors. Therefore every choice is a result of a chain of cause and effect, predetermined by the natural process of things.

I don't think that pre-destination. because person A,B,C will respond differently based on those factors. They are all factors, but none will affect A as B C does, and none will affect B as A C does.
Lazy thinking.

I'm not a determinist, but the argument you made is a building block of hard determinism.

Nope.

[Chaka-Z0]

Meanwhile in the Middle East...

https://tribune.com.pk/story/1760350...-state-rivals/

giphy.jpg

[aretood2]

Yes, this has about the same chance in hell that the dream of splitting NY does, but why not let the voters decide?

http://thehill.com/homenews/state-wa...ate-into-three

They had enough support to get the measure on the ballot, why is the state afraid to let the voters decide?

Probably the same reason the Senate didn't vote for Obama's SCOTUS nominee. Politics.

Never said they had to be religious tood.
But, "down the road" is cause and effect, ant that is certainly an issue.

You just proved that siding against your beliefs is not "easy", you actually think and reflect on that choice.
Anyone who actually has "deeply held beliefs", religious or not, will not find it "easy" to contravene them.
Thinking before actions, that's the greatest asset of an external belief system, no matter if I like, dislike, or disagree with it.

But at the end of the day, a choice is still made and could have gone the other way and people do go the other way.

That's easy.
Do they contradict what he claims to believe in.

Eating during daylight in Ramadan without any mitigating circumstance, yes. And eating Bacon, yes. One he did the other he didn't.

Beliefs ARE capable of contravening free will. You want a good example?
Child suicide bombers.

Those children still made a choice just like adult suicide bombers. The only difference is that the adults had the capacity to consider more information to inform their choice. Children are unable to make informed decisions on that level. If anything, those children had no idea exactly what they were doing beyond what was directly in front of them. They have diminished mental faculties. BTW, I don't believe in "brainwashing". Nor do many in the Psychology field.

They have neither freedom, or will to go against what they are indoctrinated to do. Moral relativism is something they never have the chance to even explore.

Because they would be incapable of exploring that on such an early point of their development. Children are a poor choice to pick for this free will discussion.

Get them young, and keep them dumb is the driving force behind organized religions, and I HATE them for that, I honestly really, HATE them for it, because it removes any sense of choice, or self, or exploration. If you got the choice, I give credit to your parents, not the religion. I walked away from the church like practices of my religion some 20 years ago for wanting to do this, teach your kids only one form of religion.
Gimme a break, I can have only ONE pantheon, in a world that has many???

How can you prove free will exists? By showing that we have innate self agency. If anything as ubiquitous as belief can rob us of that self agency, then it puts the idea of free will on the ledge. If hearing someone talk and talk and talk (brainwashing) can rob us of that, then that also opens the door for too many factors that can destroy our free will. It narrows the definition down to the point that you get closer and closer to hard determinism.

I don't think that pre-destination. because person A,B,C will respond differently based on those factors. They are all factors, but none will affect A as B C does, and none will affect B as A C does.
Lazy thinking.

Nope.

My Philosophy is a bit rusty, but yeah, that's a part of the argument made in the discussion between Hard Determinists and Libertarians (Of the free will philosophy variety not the policial ones). If I were a believer of Hard Determinism I might say that if all factors are the same, then you'd get the same outcome

Take twins who are raised separately and end up making similar choices for example.
(Some reading for those interested: https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-sr...?noredirect=on ).

I'll pick one pair that the article mentions quoted below:

"Equally astounding was another set of twins, Oskar Stohr and Jack Yufe. At first, they appeared to be a textbook case of the primacy of culture in forming individuals -- just the opposite of the Lewis-Springer pair. Separated from his twin six months after their birth in Trinidad, Oskar was brought up Catholic in Germany and joined the Hitler Youth. Jack stayed behind in the Caribbean, was raised a Jew and lived for a time in Israel. Yet despite the stark contrast of their lives, when the twins were reunited in their fifth decade they had similar speech and thought patterns, similar gaits, a taste for spicy foods and common peculiarities such as flushing the toilet before they used it."

Two different people make the same choice. What do they have in common? Their genes. So why couldn't you make the same breakfast choice as me if we had the same exact factors? Their differences are based on how they were raised, but similarities either chance coincidences (convergent similarities on how they were raised?). So any similarity is genetic and any difference nurture.

That's the argument. The counter argument is that we all have ticks that we all have in common with other people. Flushing a toilet before using it, I do that in Public restrooms all the time. The three of us cannot possibly be the only ones. So naturally people, even "detached" researchers, may zero in in similarities that are insignificant. There are 7 billion of us out there there are bound to be more Toods like me that are not clones.

Remember, I don't buy into the ABC argument either, Free Will and all, but their (Followers of Determinism) argument is not simply lazy thinking.

[Coco Pops]

To my way of thinking pre destination implies that events are already set in stone and can't be changed so must happen the way that design is laid out. So free will in that case doesn't exist.

[Chaka-Z0]

To my way of thinking pre destination implies that events are already set in stone and can't be changed so must happen the way that design is laid out. So free will in that case doesn't exist.

Maybe pre-destination does exist but we are able to alter it through free will?