Discussion about hot topics trending today

[Annoyed]

You might have a point there, how about you back it up with actual statistics? Please show me proof, tangible evidences, links (non-Fox BS pls), that shows how bad this problem is, compared to other internal issues of your country.

(There is approximately 4.2 murders per 100,000 Americans in the US each year, if we go with the link GateFan1976 provided on Economics.)

Source: https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/il...on-statistics/

How many immigrants are living in the U.S. illegally?
There were 12 million immigrants living in the country illegally as of January 2015, according to the most recent estimate from the Department of Homeland Security. The estimates from two independent groups are similar: The Pew Research Center estimates the number at 10.7 million in 2016, and the Center for Migration Studies says there were 10.8 million people in 2016 living in the U.S. illegally.

Source: https://cis.org/Report/63-NonCitizen...lfare-Programs

63% of Non-Citizen Households Access Welfare Programs
Compared to 35% of native households

Seems like legitimate problems to me.

And while I respected your request to avoid Fox as a source, why should I? How many people on this board cite Vox, Salon and any number of equally biased sources?

[SGalisa]

Talk about tangents...

It's the religious who control who is considered Jewish. In reality, that's what it is. It's an inheritable religion in which belief is not required to be a member nor does disbelief disqualify you from membership but believing in something else does. This is why the only way to become a Jew is to convert, yet a Jew can remain a Jew even if he does not believe in the religion. Being simply born of a Jewish mother (that's the intheritable part) is enough to make you a member of the religion. It's also why you would be considered a non-Jew if you convert to another religion because the religion will not share you with another religion (which makes perfect sense).

The only thing is that the world (as evidenced by history) recognizes Jews as being anyone born of any Jew irregardless of religion. And that is the mistake, it's not a race. King David, by that definition isn't even a "pure" Jew. It is a religious lineage that one can join and leave only via religious conversion. This is basically how tribes work. You can become part of a tribe by adopting its customs (in this case the religion) or leave it by adopting another tribe's customs (converting away). Once you are part of the tribe you are part of its heritage (thus inheritable).

Thanks for the reminder aretood2.

This is true about King David not being an entirely *pure* Jew by DNA blood, etc.

As the biblical stories have recorded... One of David's great-great...grandma's, was Ruth, who was a gentile who converted to Judaism when she married Boaz (a Jew by lineage birth).
(See Matthew 1:1-6 genealogy AND the introductory story of David's blessing by Samuel in 1 Samuel 16:1-13...
lest we forget... historical sidenote, David's father Jesse was of/from *Bethlehem*...)


As for the term "tribe" ...not sure of the term, but when a person grows up in a neighborhood, they are often regarded as from a specific, geographical territory, thus being part of or belonging to some sort of *community*.

[Chaka-Z0]

https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/11/wa...n-kolfage/amp/

[Annoyed]

https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/11/wa...n-kolfage/amp/

As I recall, one of the right-wingers around here pointed this flaw out last month; there is no mechanism to do it. Sure, they can don't money to the govt. all they want, but it has to be allocated by the congress.

The counter-campaign was just as stupid.

[Annoyed]

I see the Democrat kindergartners are being given voice..

Ocasio-Cortez sparks debate with talk of 70 percent marginal rate

What an idiot.

[Womble]

Would you build one to protect "Judaism" or Israel?
See, this is where this stuff gets confusing.
You are a Jewish nation, but don't need to be a Jew to be an Israeli, but you need to convert to Judaism to be accepted as a Jew if you come from another country, although if you are already from another country and are by heritage a Jew, it's ok.
You CAN however, not believe in the defining trait of Judaism, and be an Israeli because it's a tribe, not a religion or "race", yet the bible states you are the chosen ones based on religion rather than race or country?

That's some confusing **** right there Womble.

And there he goes again.

[Gatefan1976]

And there he goes again.

It's only because I am trying to understand it Womble, I am not having a dig for crying out loud.

[aretood2]

I see the Democrat kindergartners are being given voice..

Ocasio-Cortez sparks debate with talk of 70 percent marginal rate

What an idiot.

Why is taxing the super rich for their fair share idiotic?

Source: https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/il...on-statistics/


Source: https://cis.org/Report/63-NonCitizen...lfare-Programs



Seems like legitimate problems to me.

And while I respected your request to avoid Fox as a source, why should I? How many people on this board cite Vox, Salon and any number of equally biased sources?

The thing about this survey is that naturalized citizens are counted as immigrants...

And then it doesn't take into account native born citizen head of household who may be married to an immigrant. It also, most importantly, doesn't report the amount of welfare spent. That matters because a household is counted if it receives welfare period, it doesn't measure length of time spent on welfare nor amount spent on the household. For example, a Native household could use welfare among all its family members while only one member of an immigrant household may use it yet they are both counted equally (In fact this link shows a study that shows just this scenario is true). CATO has a more complete criticism of the CIS study here:

https://www.cato.org/blog/center-imm...nt-welfare-use
https://www.cato.org/blog/center-imm...are-use-part-2


Another example of CIS dishonesty is when reporting crime rates. When ICE issues detainers, it's for investigatory purposes and not a result of a commision of a crime (This move is constitutionally questionable. Imagine a citizen or legal immigrant being detained by the police upon ICE's request for the sole purpose of asking them for papers....actually don't imagine it. It does happen often. So much for due process, warrants, and probable cause). So including these detainers (which aren't court mandated thus not warrants) they greatly inflate the crime rates.

Then let's mention how they include social security. Upper Class people generally don't pull from SS byt lower class people almost rely on it exclusively. How? retirement age. A lawyer can afford to retire at age 50, when he is not eligible for SS. A farmhand cannot afford to retire at age 50, so when he does retire in his 60's he ends up using SS and thus counted as welfare.

Several of their studies have been found to be poorly and unscientifically produced. They also downright lie. For example they claimed that in 2009 that 5.5 illegals got work permits, but it turns out that a large portion of those 5.5 million work permits were given to legal immigrants...oops.

Of course we shouldn't ignore that CIS's founder is a white supremacist. That in one hand it argues that low income unskilled immigrants are bad but doesn't advocate for high income or high skilled immigrants and yet claims to be pro-legal immigrants...yeah...that's a nice magic trick there.

[Gatefan1976]

Why is taxing the super rich for their fair share idiotic?

He believes his house, car and boat make him "super rich"?

[Womble]

It's only because I am trying to understand it Womble, I am not having a dig for crying out loud.

You're dragging this subject into every discussion, however unrelated. That is a sign of obsession.

And after the hole you've dug the last time, I am wary of discussing anything with you. At all.

[Gatefan1976]

You're dragging this subject into every discussion, however unrelated. That is a sign of obsession.

It's not unrelated.
You folks DID build a wall(a fence, a barrier), and yes you had far more pressing reasons to do so than the US, but the US is currently trying to use YOUR reasoning to create "the wall"
Once more they are using Israel as an excuse.

And after the hole you've dug the last time, I am wary of discussing anything with you. At all.

Don't answer me then, just be aware that you have your own shovel as well, and you have been digging a hole as well, for quite some time.

[Annoyed]

Why is taxing the super rich for their fair share idiotic?

Well, first off, if they tried that stunt, the targets would simply move their assets outside the jurisdiction, or use other legal means to shield their income. You'll never get them to pay that much.

She just sees a pot of money she wants to grab onto to finance a number of financially unsustainable pipe dreams.

Just because she won't get the financing source she dreams of doesn't mean she'll give up on her dreams, though. So guess who will end up paying for it? Those who are not wealthy enough to shield their income or move it.

The thing about this survey is that naturalized citizens are counted as immigrants...

And then it doesn't take into account native born citizen head of household who may be married to an immigrant. It also, most importantly, doesn't report the amount of welfare spent. That matters because a household is counted if it receives welfare period, it doesn't measure length of time spent on welfare nor amount spent on the household. For example, a Native household could use welfare among all its family members while only one member of an immigrant household may use it yet they are both counted equally (In fact this link shows a study that shows just this scenario is true). CATO has a more complete criticism of the CIS study here:

https://www.cato.org/blog/center-imm...nt-welfare-use
https://www.cato.org/blog/center-imm...are-use-part-2


Another example of CIS dishonesty is when reporting crime rates. When ICE issues detainers, it's for investigatory purposes and not a result of a commision of a crime (This move is constitutionally questionable. Imagine a citizen or legal immigrant being detained by the police upon ICE's request for the sole purpose of asking them for papers....actually don't imagine it. It does happen often. So much for due process, warrants, and probable cause). So including these detainers (which aren't court mandated thus not warrants) they greatly inflate the crime rates.

Then let's mention how they include social security. Upper Class people generally don't pull from SS byt lower class people almost rely on it exclusively. How? retirement age. A lawyer can afford to retire at age 50, when he is not eligible for SS. A farmhand cannot afford to retire at age 50, so when he does retire in his 60's he ends up using SS and thus counted as welfare.

Several of their studies have been found to be poorly and unscientifically produced. They also downright lie. For example they claimed that in 2009 that 5.5 illegals got work permits, but it turns out that a large portion of those 5.5 million work permits were given to legal immigrants...oops.

Who is it that keeps pointing out that statistics can be used to paint any picture the artist desires? You cite one source, I cite another.

How about basing views on real life? How many jurisdictions along the southern border have been overwhelmed by welfare costs? I seem to recall reading about a number of them. And a large percentage of those costs are borne locally. Some of the highest taxed counties in NY have no choice; the lions share of the county budget is mandated social service spending.
Laws can't be too different in the southwestern states.

Of course we shouldn't ignore that CIS's founder is a white supremacist. That in one hand it argues that low income unskilled immigrants are bad but doesn't advocate for high income or high skilled immigrants and yet claims to be pro-legal immigrants...yeah...that's a nice magic trick there.

Yes, I'm aware that SPLC has decreed CIS to be a racist organization. But they apply that tag to anyone who doesn't fall in line with what they want to do. No surprise there. I'll pay it all due consideration. (None)

And why would anyone in their right mind favor any immigrants coming into the country to take jobs from US citizens? You support Microsoft's efforts to replace their domestic labor force with immigrants (at lower wages of course)? You support Disney's replacing their domestic workers at its theme parks with immigrants, again at lower wages? Disney actually made the domestics train their immigrant replacements before they were fired.

[jelgate]

Has anyone seen my straw? I think Annoyed took it.

[mad_gater]

Read below...


And there's the crux of the issue isn't it? Suddenly asylum seekers are terrorists seeking to blow things up in the US. And this is based on what? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. Not one example. The last time anyone crossed the Mexican American Border to attack the US was Pancho Villa about a hundred years ago. Yet somehow we need to copy Israel's move which was designed to stop terrorist attacks? Then the fact that the some of the 9/11 terrorists (among others) did come through Canada yet no one seems to care about the Canadian American border. How can one not wonder if race plays a role here?

and as I've said...repeatedly....I have no issue with immigration as long as it's done legally....it's ILLEGAL immigration I have an issue with but it would seem you'd rather we had no physical barriers to entry at all

[Chaka-Z0]

Talk about tangents...
It's the religious who control who is considered Jewish. In reality, that's what it is.

It's the religious who control who is considered a believer, whatever the religion. I don't remember voicing my opposition to being baptized as a baby, yet I was forced into it all the same by ''the religious''.

Don't answer me then, just be aware that you have your own shovel as well, and you have been digging a hole as well, for quite some time.

One thing I've learned is that discussing the semantics and specifics of religion can only end up in a dialogue of the deaf. Don't try to find logic and sense where there is none GF.

Well, first off, if they tried that stunt, the targets would simply move their assets outside the jurisdiction, or use other legal means to shield their income. You'll never get them to pay that much.

That's actually true. I am of the opinion that the only solution to eradicating tax avoidance is to have a coordinated approach from all major fiscal players of the world. If one player changes the rules, the cockroaches will converge to another country. Having an international, uniform fiscal reform for businesses is the only remedy to this cancer.

and as I've said...repeatedly....I have no issue with immigration as long as it's done legally....it's ILLEGAL immigration I have an issue with but it would seem you'd rather we had no physical barriers to entry at all

That's like the people who start a sentence with ''I'm not racist, but...''