Tracking Earth's Future via Current Events, etc.

[Gatefan1976]

Would I recognize if you had or not?

Don't know, I have always expressed my dislike of organized religion.

[lordofseas]

Don't know, I have always expressed my dislike of organized religion.

Fair. Though I don't know if you would be restraining yourself.

[Gatefan1976]

Fair. Though I don't know if you would be restraining yourself.

Well, the only difference would be the amount of swearing, or sarcasm, and on a PG site, I have limits.

I will say though that if you want to criticise, you must accept being "fired back" on.

[lordofseas]

Well, the only difference would be the amount of swearing, or sarcasm, and on a PG site, I have limits.

I will say though that if you want to criticise, you must accept being "fired back" on.

I enjoy disagreement that has evidence to support it, or contradict me.

[Gatefan1976]

I enjoy disagreement that has evidence to support it, or contradict me.

Methinks you will never get "hard evidence" in a religious thread

[Seastallion]

Meh, this article got of course anyhow.

[SGalisa]

Meh, this article got of course anyhow.

maybe.. but the "Church" (including the roman/Catholic one sitting on the SEVEN hills of Rome) as a system or unit is prophecied (Revelation 3) to fall during the "last days".. So, these are just little details documenting the how's and why's of the Church's final demise.

Based on what other people elsewhere in the world, keep telling each other, and what I've heard thru the Church grapevine (from people I know personally), I think we're already there, if not extremely close enough to that fateful moment in time.

I'm just as upset as everyone else would be at clerics who should know better than to abuse their authority in such a fashion...

I got your messages mad_gater. Too much to discuss right now (I'm really tired.. been talking with a friend for hours... dealing with medical "issues" and insurance that wouldn't pay their end of the bill, etc.)

Suffice it to say what Jack Chick wrote about happening in the olden days of the Catholic Inquisitions, etc., if the priests and nuns were having taboo-type relationships, God knows.. It's in the Lord's court now. Not a problem for any of us to deal with. Most of those folks (in Jack Chick's tract documentations) have been dead for centuries. *sigh*

My question in this instance would be, WHY is it illicit?
I mean, if attraction to the opposite sex is natural (and nature is dictated by "god"), why try to deny nature?

Because as mad_gater noted, those Catholic clergy people took a vow of celibacy. Anything breaking that vow is taboo, and thus a no-no. Once they take their vow of celibacy, they are NOT permitted to have any relationship that is romantic or *intimate* in any way, shape or form with the opposite gender, and it was automatically "assumed" with the same gender. Had to add that "same" bit, because of how the vow might get twisted into being reinterpreted, as in the case of my (gay, former "brother/priest/monk") relative.

Perhaps he had a "reason", it just was not a "good" one?


Ummmm
I think you should extent that concept.


Do you think your god is really that......Petty?


I think you may want to examine that more considering how much an impact a belief system can have on a person.



Religion may not define them, but is can be used to justify them.
TBC

Due to time factors, I can't respond to your entire post--in better detail, at the moment. I started to write something up, but I got sidetracked with more urgent home care things, and might have to get back to it later.
Suffice it to say that my dad had a short temper, no patience, and was an abusive parent to all of his kids--my siblings got whacked around, too. We were just extra mouths to feed, thus a financial burden on his budget, and he never let a day go by without reminding us of that..! He was also a super perfectionist geek, who would get frustrated when things didn't go exactly perfectly for him.
He was also a strict Roman Catholic, but denied what Jesus taught a year before he(my dad) died. My dad was cursed with a hot-temper; my mom said he was abused by his own father (thus he carried his youth's frustrations into his own adult years and marriage), his own dad abused his mom so much that she used to stand in her own corner for hours--as punishment to herself--after my grandfather died.. and NONE of this was related to religion. It was ALL personality issues and conflicts in dealing with everyday events.

Oh, and God isn't petty. But my dad was a ruthless dictator for a parent. I wasn't taking chances with what Jesus said. Besides, forgiving another person is easier to live with than dealing with years and years of intensified anger that builds up deep within. Why do wars start? Because of NO forgiveness, or because of being taken wrongfully advantage of.. nothing to do with "religion".. but this has everything to do with the attitudes of the soul/heart.

Abraham's wife Sarah held a grudge against Hagar, and now look at how the Jewish and Arab (including Palestinian communities) are living with or against each other. Jewish "Israel" (the nation) of today believes it will end up in a war, very soon, but the roots behind these Arabic/Muslim/Islamic wars and tensions go all the way back to the days of Abraham... Both sides claim Abraham as their "father"... I think Abraham would be rolling in his grave in anguish if he knew his decision to impregnate Hagar might someday lead to the potential last war of the world (see Revelation 16-18).

[lordofseas]

God is not petty? Let's explore the Old Testament, where God hardens Pharaoh's heart, and because of that, kills all the firstborn without blood on their doors. Or commits human genocide because he didn't like what they were doing (after he "gave" them free will).

[SGalisa]

God is not petty? Let's explore the Old Testament, where God hardens Pharaoh's heart, and because of that, kills all the firstborn without blood on their doors. Or commits human genocide because he didn't like what they were doing (after he "gave" them free will).

LOS---To you, I'm going to guess your POV of God is petty and a "mean old grump". Based on previous conversations, I got that as a very strong impression from your writing. There are many others who also seem to think of "God" in that perspective. But that's something you all have to deal with and work out between "you" and *Him* (God).

And thank God, I'm not him in having to deal with all of the chronic complainers --against God-- all down thruout earth's history..

Do you truly understand what LOVE means in 1 Corinthians 13?
To me, God is a strict disciplinarian, *yes*, but He is also loving in knowing what is best for us. If I walk beyond the boundary lines *God* established as "see this line? Do NOT cross past it".. for all we know there might be something hazardous on the other side, or not. It's also a matter of loyalty. Do (generic) you Love God or hate Him.

If generic "you" truly Love Him, then you would follow and obey *His* commands. Somewhere in the bible, that statement exists.. I don't have time to look it up right now.
later!

[Gatefan1976]

LOS---To you, I'm going to guess your POV of God is petty and a "mean old grump". Based on previous conversations, I got that as a very strong impression from your writing. There are many others who also seem to think of "God" in that perspective. But that's something you all have to deal with and work out between "you" and *Him* (God).

And thank God, I'm not him in having to deal with all of the chronic complainers --against God-- all down thruout earth's history..

Do you truly understand what LOVE means in 1 Corinthians 13?
To me, God is a strict disciplinarian, *yes*, but He is also loving in knowing what is best for us. If I walk beyond the boundary lines *God* established as "see this line? Do NOT cross past it".. for all we know there might be something hazardous on the other side, or not. It's also a matter of loyalty. Do (generic) you Love God or hate Him.

If generic "you" truly Love Him, then you would follow and obey *His* commands. Somewhere in the bible, that statement exists.. I don't have time to look it up right now.
later!

Just quietly, and in no way meant to justify your dad being mean to you, did he not expect the same from you?
Your dad pulled your hair, pretty poor behaviour.
Your God condemns you to everlasting torment.
Hmmm
Perhaps your dad just knew what was best for you as well, I mean, dispite his harsh and unnessesary discipline, you ARE a good person, yes?

[SGalisa]

generically speaking---

...Do you truly understand what LOVE means in 1 Corinthians 13?
To me, God is a strict disciplinarian, *yes*, but He is also loving in knowing what is best for us. If I walk beyond the boundary lines *God* established as "see this line? Do NOT cross past it".. for all we know there might be something hazardous on the other side, or not. It's also a matter of loyalty. Do (generic) you Love God or hate Him.

If generic "you" truly Love Him, then you would follow and obey *His* commands. Somewhere in the bible, that statement exists.. I don't have time to look it up right now.
later!

Ok, I looked up the more important (Bible) verses-- here they are about LOVE.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8, New International Version (NIV)

4) Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
5) It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
6) Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
7) It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8) Love never fails...

It's True that to someone who just sees the above verses as words on a page, that's all such words will be--speckles of something on a page and therefore mostly meaningless.

Over the centuries, people have defined and redefined what *their* own version of genuine love is, yet unless they are in sync with the scriptural version, their own is so close--yet still so far, far away from what it (genuine love) should be.


Also, in Luke 11:11-13 (New International Version (NIV))
Jesus said,

11) "Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead?
12) Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion?
13) If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"

Since God knows each of our individual heart and motives, He judges the heart and grants "things" to us accordingly. If there is an ounce or iota of insincerity within us (biblically defined as "sin"), that negativity blocks and stops God's Holy Spirit from pouring blessings upon us, either one blessing at a time or in great abundance.

Just quietly, and in no way meant to justify your dad being mean to you, did he not expect the same from you?
Your dad pulled your hair, pretty poor behaviour.
Your God condemns you to everlasting torment.
Hmmm

Grant it, there were times in my younger years that I didn't understand ALL of what was expected of me. Had I known then, what I know NOW (learned over these many, many years), I may have spared myself at least some grief under my (human) "father's roof" domain.

I never got the impression of God being anything like my dad. I saw God more like Jesus -- a loving parent who would take care of me, and not beat the utter life out of me, nor my sisters. My dad had issues--because he was abused in his own childhood, he didn't know any better and carried that behavior over into his adult life. Had DYFS existed in the years I grew up, my sisters and I would have ended up in foster homes, instead, regardless of how that impacted my mom, who tried to stop our dad more than once but he would have beat the H out of her too, had she intervened.

It wasn't until after I turned 21 (years old) and got married, that I realized thru a personality study that my dad "loved" me the only way he knew how. He wasn't using any biblical method, he only used the lifelong imprint that his parents made him live thru, so that became his model in how he approached raising his kids.

Still, if you've got a serious cold and your dad tells you to "blow your nose" so you might stop sniffling all over the place, and you blow your nose so hard that you blow a major vein out.. thus, NEED to be taken to the hospital to have that bursted vein cauterized, well, that costs money, and you just cost your dad not only gas money, etc., in getting to the hospital, but a hefty pocket fee for emergency services and insurance for special treatment.. needless to say, when that happened to me, my dad was more upset over how much it cost him in finances than he was concerned in making me healthy again. He lived with an "almighty me" (selfish him, that is) attitude. The world revolved around him, not the other way around.

Had my dad been able to balance genuine, selfless LOVE, with his personality, it would have been more tolerable.. He was also not as good of a communicator as he needed to be. He was good at fixing computers, not good at fixing emotions or wounded souls. He himself was emotionally wounded for life, so how could he?
What hurt me more was that he never EVER accepted me into his life wholly, until the day before he died. I am not exaggerating. Oh, after I got married, I suddenly became like a best friend -- and I figured he'd do that, because he did that exact same thing with my sisters. Well, it didn't sit well within me, that after I got married and went to live elsewhere--because I was no longer a burden to him that I should suddenly become his best buddy, I had a long hard road to just suddenly forgive his attitudes for all those wretched years of hatred he bestowed upon me.

I know now that this is an emotional problem that a lot of people go thru. It's not just me, who had to live thru that sort of ordeal.

Perhaps your dad just knew what was best for you as well, I mean, dispite his harsh and unnessesary discipline, you ARE a good person, yes?

I was considered a "goody-two shoes" by my schoolmates and hated that sort of sarcasm, because of it. I chose to please my parents instead of my peers, because I realized over various circumstances that I could not trust most of my school peers.

Yet, no matter how much I tried to do good, excel in scholastic achievement, it simply was never good enough for my dad. Eventually, he confessed he was teasing me about getting "A"s and "B"s in school--that the grades were NOT good enough--NOT perfect enough (and later admitted that he really did admire that I was trying to do well there), but he wouldn't admit to the teasing part -- not until AFTER he drove me to tears. I mean, wrecking ball type of tears! If I excelled in grades, but had forgot to do a chore, the negative always outweighed the positive with him. He never played favorites with any of his kids. We were all treated equal (bad).

I also knew that regardless of what our home life was like, my parents would still feed, clothe, and shelter me to the best of their ability, such as it was within their limited financial means. I could not say the same would be true for all of my neighborhood peers/classmates. There might have been a few exceptions (true friends) there, but I didn't want to burden my friends' parents with me as an extra mouth to feed, day in and day out, just because my dad had personality problems... One must realize which side of the toasted bread their butter comes from.

[lordofseas]

LOS---To you, I'm going to guess your POV of God is petty and a "mean old grump". Based on previous conversations, I got that as a very strong impression from your writing. There are many others who also seem to think of "God" in that perspective. But that's something you all have to deal with and work out between "you" and *Him* (God).

The Judeo-Christian God is nothing more than I would expect from illiterate, uneducated men attempting to find meaning in their lives.

Do you truly understand what LOVE means in 1 Corinthians 13?
To me, God is a strict disciplinarian, *yes*, but He is also loving in knowing what is best for us. If I walk beyond the boundary lines *God* established as "see this line? Do NOT cross past it".. for all we know there might be something hazardous on the other side, or not. It's also a matter of loyalty. Do (generic) you Love God or hate Him.

And do you know what Jesus commands us to do, so emphatically that he calls them the Greatest Commandments? We are compelled to love God, and to love our neighbours as we would love ourselves. Compulsory love disturbs me, and compounded with the threat of eternal torture if you don't...God sounds like some of the more disgusting spouses I've met.

If generic "you" truly Love Him, then you would follow and obey *His* commands. Somewhere in the bible, that statement exists.. I don't have time to look it up right now.
later!

If you love me, you'll do as I say...That's an appeal to passion, not reason. I will heed someone if I trust them, and trust is reciprocal.

[The Urban Spaceman]

If you love me, you'll do as I say...That's an appeal to passion, not reason. I will heed someone if I trust them, and trust is reciprocal.

Indeed. If somebody tried such emotional blackmail on me, I would cut them out of my life and be much the better for it.

[SGalisa]

To me, God is a strict disciplinarian, *yes*, but He is also loving in knowing what is best for us. If I walk beyond the boundary lines *God* established as "see this line? Do NOT cross past it".. for all we know there might be something hazardous on the other side, or not. It's also a matter of loyalty. Do (generic) you Love God or hate Him.

If generic "you" truly Love Him, then you would follow and obey *His* commands. Somewhere in the bible, that statement exists.. I don't have time to look it up right now.
later!

Most people reading the Bible passages tend NOT to understand God, partly because they've decided God's list of rules and regulations are simply too demanding.
Me, I never understood God's rules and regulations until someone drew me a diagram (hello.. illustration in specific and BORING to anyone else details)..
It still took me years to accept God on "His" terms more than on what my mind kept seeing instead. Yet, God in his infinite mercy showed me things thru other people explaining those things to me, that I would never have ever understood ever. I doubt if any of what I am writing here will help anyone who has or continues to have a "wall" between them and God.. but that is between *generic* you and God.

If you love me, you'll do as I say...That's an appeal to passion, not reason. I will heed someone if I trust them, and trust is reciprocal.

Indeed. If somebody tried such emotional blackmail on me, I would cut them out of my life and be much the better for it.

"obey my commands" -- see
Exodus 16:28-29 The Lord asked Moses, "How long will these people refuse to obey my commands and instructions?
29 They must realize that the Sabbath is the Lord’s gift to you..."

Exodus 16:13-20, Exodus 16:27-29 New Living Translation (NLT)

Spoiler:

13 That evening vast numbers of quail flew in and covered the camp. And the next morning the area around the camp was wet with dew.
14 When the dew evaporated, a flaky substance as fine as frost blanketed the ground.
15 The Israelites were puzzled when they saw it. "What is it?" they asked each other. They had no idea what it was.

And Moses told them, "It is the food the Lord has given you to eat.
16 These are the Lord's instructions: Each household should gather as much as it needs. Pick up two quarts for each person in your tent."

17 So the people of Israel did as they were told. Some gathered a lot, some only a little.
18 But when they measured it out, everyone had just enough. Those who gathered a lot had nothing left over, and those who gathered only a little had enough. Each family had just what it needed.

19 Then Moses told them, "Do not keep any of it until morning."
20 But some of them didn’t listen and kept some of it until morning. But by then it was full of maggots and had a terrible smell. Moses was very angry with them.

...

27 Some of the people went out anyway on the seventh day, but they found no food.
28 The Lord asked Moses, "How long will these people refuse to obey my commands and instructions?
29 They must realize that the Sabbath is the Lord’s gift to you. That is why he gives you a two-day supply on the sixth day, so there will be enough for two days. On the Sabbath day you must each stay in your place. Do not go out to pick up food on the seventh day."

God provided enough food so that there was NO need to go out and get more. Since the manna would not keep overnight, they were advised to throw out what they did not use. Yet some people didn't heed that advice, and found their food rotted away with maggots. The following morning, more manna would be provided, except for on the 7th day. Surely, there is a scientific explanation.

Is that advice so difficult to follow? Is the advice given in loving compassion or because there's just a greedy God out there making horrid demands... (Ooooo! wait til the disobedience results are revealed.)
Jeesh. Please Follow the formula exactly, or it won't work. In other words--obey these commands, or you might be sorry you chose to work it out differently. (DUH!!)


more...

Punishments for Disobedience
see Leviticus 26:14-16, New Living Translation (NLT)

14 "However, if you do not listen to me or obey all these commands,
15 and if you break my covenant by rejecting my decrees, treating my regulations with contempt, and refusing to obey my commands,
16 I will punish you. I will bring sudden terrors upon you—wasting diseases and burning fevers that will cause your eyes to fail and your life to ebb away. You will plant your crops in vain because your enemies will eat them..."

Again, more scientific explanation for not following the food planting/harvesting instructions exactly--
is that so difficult to do?

In the modern 21st century (A.D./C.E.) world, Monsanto is being blamed for creating GMO crops that have been so altered that these very veggies fed to both cattle and humans can cause tumors and cancer.
People in the nutrition world have had to compensate staying healthy with taking vitamins and minerals that will help keep them healthy. There is a specific set of nutrition that applies to each person, based on their needs and current health. What works for one person does NOT work for another, so each person needs to find where the happy middle ground of ideal health exists.

If some people do NOT take certain veggies within 3 days apart and let that time lapse into 5 days or more, they become susceptible to respiratory infections and sore throats. Most people merely think they get sick because that's the way the world is around them, and they are not taught *proper* nutrition tactics. But when specific veggies, whatever IS taken within the *recommended* time frame, those same people tend to stay healthier longer and ward off respiratory infections, until their immunity system is compromised in some other form/way.

It took me years to figure out which vitamins/minerals worked for me, including taking B-vitamins with mostly any juice/liquids for better absorption than with water. Water has an adverse reaction against the B-vitamins, and the person taking B's with water can end up with chronic itching and no B's helping their body out. I found that out the hard route. Years ago, when I mentioned it to my regular doctor, he/they just looked at me like vitamins were from Pluto. Now, some of those same doctors are being more sensitive to the issue and requesting an entire list of ALL vitamins taken along with any medication or allergies. Hospitals require it for certain operation procedures (e.g., colonoscopies!).

So, when the bible records God requesting people to "obey my commands" -- there is a bigger reason involved than just that of being a "selfish God." Do people think of that? Of course not. Did people bother to read the entire verse and the reasons behind God's chosing for certain items to be "obeyed" or follow *His* advice in a certain and very specific way? There are some things in life that can be proven scientifically, why those "commands" were given. Be it someone's ingenious imagination or a real "God" stating it at the helm, that is for the individual person to weigh within their own mind/heart.

If people refuse to listen, that is no longer God's problem. The people have chosen, and that choice may very well be harmful to their very health / existence.

I'm just the messenger, not the interpreter here...
There's plenty more, but this posting is long enough...

[Gatefan1976]

Most people reading the Bible passages tend NOT to understand God, partly because they've decided God's list of rules and regulations are simply too demanding.

A rather broad, and dare I say arrogant presumption. I recall someone else getting in trouble for thier arrogance...........

Me, I never understood God's rules and regulations until someone drew me a diagram (hello.. illustration in specific and BORING to anyone else details)..
It still took me years to accept God on "His" terms more than on what my mind kept seeing instead. Yet, God in his infinite mercy showed me things thru other people explaining those things to me, that I would never have ever understood ever. I doubt if any of what I am writing here will help anyone who has or continues to have a "wall" between them and God.. but that is between *generic* you and God.

Why did you not come to God in your own terms, rather than the terms of others?

"obey my commands" -- see
Exodus 16:28-29 The Lord asked Moses, "How long will these people refuse to obey my commands and instructions?
29 They must realize that the Sabbath is the Lord’s gift to you..."

Must, they MUST??
Where is free will in MUST?

God provided enough food so that there was NO need to go out and get more. Since the manna would not keep overnight, they were advised to throw out what they did not use. Yet some people didn't heed that advice, and found their food rotted away with maggots. The following morning, more manna would be provided, except for on the 7th day. Surely, there is a scientific explanation.

No, no there is no "scientific explanation" for that.

Is that advice so difficult to follow? Is the advice given in loving compassion or because there's just a greedy God out there making horrid demands... (Ooooo! wait til the disobedience results are revealed.)

Rely on me for all, for I am the only way?
Yeah, thats pretty greedy.

Jeesh. Please Follow the formula exactly, or it won't work. In other words--obey these commands, or you might be sorry you chose to work it out differently. (DUH!!)

Free will, free will, free will.

more...

Punishments for Disobedience
see Leviticus 26:14-16, New Living Translation (NLT)

14 "However, if you do not listen to me or obey all these commands,
15 and if you break my covenant by rejecting my decrees, treating my regulations with contempt, and refusing to obey my commands,
16 I will punish you. I will bring sudden terrors upon you—wasting diseases and burning fevers that will cause your eyes to fail and your life to ebb away. You will plant your crops in vain because your enemies will eat them..."

Again, more scientific explanation for not following the food planting/harvesting instructions exactly--
is that so difficult to do?

No science, just demands.

So, when the bible records God requesting people to "obey my commands" -- there is a bigger reason involved than just that of being a "selfish God." Do people think of that? Of course not. Did people bother to read the entire verse and the reasons behind God's chosing for certain items to be "obeyed" or follow *His* advice in a certain and very specific way?

OK.
A doctor says "if you don't cut out XYZ, it will kill you" and he will tell you why.
Jove says, "IF you don't cut out XYZ *I* will kill you"

There are some things in life that can be proven scientifically, why those "commands" were given. Be it someone's ingenious imagination or a real "God" stating it at the helm, that is for the individual person to weigh within their own mind/heart.

So god is not needed, just belief?

If people refuse to listen, that is no longer God's problem. The people have chosen, and that choice may very well be harmful to their very health / existence.

Doctors do not punish, even the "backwards Apollo worshippers" understood this.