The Political Discussion Thread

[jelgate]

That's idiotic. I'm not the biggest supporter of unions but history shows the negative impact of no unions is just as bad as unions with too much power

[mad_gater]

Long post warning....

A few things based on the conversation thus far -

DeVos absolutely wants to dismantle public education. As stated, she runs and supports FOR-PROFIT charter schools. Do you get what's wrong with that? FOR PROFIT. This means they are making money at the expense of children. Yes, I said at the expense of children. Charter schools are not held to many of the same federal mandates for curriculum, and can also choose to accept and expel children at their whim. This is how they stack the deck to make it seem like their test results and proficiencies are higher than public schools. If you weed out the poor-performing students, and send them back to public school and keep only the high performing students, well, yeah, your results look fab. Vouchers are just a laughably stupid part of this entire problematic system. Sure, a voucher may gain you entry into the school, but it doesn't mean you can stay.

Yes, poor performing urban schools are a problem but it's because of how the government doles out the cash. High performing schools - largely white urban areas - get lots of cash to spend per student, while these urban schools don't meet AYP goals and therefore get punished. The problem is they don't have the tools to educate as well as the other schools, and that is a direct results of the way federal funds are handed out - which has needed to change for the last several decades. It hasn't, and I still don't understand why. DeVos has no intention or giving more money to urban public schools that need it in order to do simple things like fix up schools, get computers, or whiteboards, or other hands on learning equipment. If not for any other reason than she doesn't even know what happens in a public school.

She also, as stated, supports Christian valued education. I am a huge proponent or the separation of church and state. The problem with people like DeVos - or dare I say Republicans at large - being in charge of the country's set of curriculum standards that lean toward religious ideals is absolutely frightening. You can't teach people the ways of the world when it's something that is not built on a solid foundation of science. We laugh at the "Flat-worlder" people but how are they any different than teaching children the Earth is only 6,000 years old, or that gravity isn't real, or whatever else.

This exact reason is why I also have never supported any Republican ideals. Especially now, their entire platform is based on religion. You can't create laws for an entire country with as much diversity as the US that are based on your single-minded religious beliefs.
You can't. It's wrong.
They believe abortion is wrong. Fine. That's your belief. But you can't mandate that no woman, ever, can't get one. That's not your choice. Sometimes it's medically necessary.
Perhaps if you allowed women free access to birth control, the abortion issue would be a completely moot-point, because you wouldn't have a need for it! It boggles the mind that conservatives can't see this. And even so, it's been studied and shown that birth control also helps women with the cycles. I know moon blood is a scary weird thing to Republicans but time for the old white guy mantra of women are sub-human creatures to go away. Forever.
They believe gay marriage is sinful. Fine. That's your belief. But you can't mandate that two people who love each other cannot be legally married, and just because they are gay means they aren't allowed access to things like benefits. I mean, why is that even a thing? Seriously why should they be denied anything just because the person they love and marry is the same sex?

Sure sure, the constitution, the founding fathers, blah blah blah whatever. That was 300 years ago. Guess what - it's not 300 years ago. Time to get over it. You're more than welcome to live in your little Republican values bubble in your own home, but you simply cannot force others to legally abide by it. It's wrong. On so many levels.

Sorry I'm jumping around here a lot - stream of consciousness and all....

Teacher's unions really do not exist anymore. In name, sure; in practice? Not so much. I've taught in 3 completely different states, and in all of them the NEA or whatever the local chapter was didn't little more than collect dues and maybe provide a lawyer if you were wrongly accused or molesting a child or something. A mandate from a few years ago basically gutted what teacher's unions were capable of. I think this happened while I was in Tennessee between 2010-2013. I'm not afraid to say what my salary was in the different areas I taught either because there is such a huge disparity between states and cities. People are also blowing about teachers getting paid too much - which is so far from the truth it's painful.
Keep in mind I have a degree in Elementary ed, and a Masters in Instructional Technology....
When I did a long-term sub position in central NY, they salaried me and it was $46k. Not bad for that area, but not amazing.
When I moved to Manassas, VA for my first full-time position, I started at $48.5k - which is paltry compared to the cost of living. For the 3 years I lived there I lived paycheck to paycheck.
When we moved to Knoxville, TN for my wife to attend grad school, I went down to making $38k. Remember, I have a Masters and now 3 years experience. At the end of my 3rd year there before moving to Houston for my wife's job, and me leaving teaching, I was making about $42k. That's why 6 years experience and a Masters.
It should be noted I spent thousands of my own dollars on supplies and equipment for my classroom over the years. Most teachers have to because they get nothing from the district for supplies. (There are schools where teachers are given copy-paper allotments because the school can't afford to buy paper for the copy machines so teachers can make activity sheets. How is that a thing? How?)

There are plenty of teachers in very well-to-do areas that make a good salary, but they are mostly ones that live in larger cities with high-priced suburbs.

Betsy DeVos knows none of this. She has been removed from the system for her entire adult life. She does not know the struggles teachers face on a daily basis. Hell, neither did Arne Duncan - I hated him too. She's a billionaire who made money literally off the backs of children. She doesn't care about education - you can tell simply by the complete lack of competency displayed answering questions at the hearing. All she did was tow the party line, and dodge questions relating to important issues and problems that face educators.

Do not sit there and tell me public education is the problem, because it's not. The way public education has been viewed and run for the last 30 years is the problem.

Public schools are amazing. No where else can you expose young minds to other cultures and ideas. If you send your kid to an all-white private school attended by other all-white-trust-fund-baby-rich-kids, what kind of mindset do you think they're going to have?

But when you send kids to a schools where they have black friends, asian friends, disabled friends, and friends who live in poverty, they become better people.
I know this because I lived it. Over the years I had autistic kids, blind kids, emotionally disturbed kids, and incredibly poor kids in my classes. What's the one thing they all have in common? Friends and support at school, and teachers who care about them.

Conservative ideals always support what's best for them, not what's best for the world at large. The nasty "liberal agenda" supports what's best for everyone, and like I said, I just don't get how so many people can be so blind to that.

Today we're going to inaugurate a complete buffoon into one of the most respected and powerful positions on the planet. He's surrounded himself with people who have some of the worst personal beliefs around. IT IS TERRIFYING.

People keep saying "let's see what he does, maybe he'll be really good." No. He won't. If he was going to make a good run at it, he wouldn't have picked the cabinet he did. He wouldn't have picked a VP that, honestly, is more frightening than Trump. Mike Pence is a terrible human being. He supports homosexual re-programming. Trump is scary because he doesn't know what he's doing and has no views he's just a blabbering idiot. Pence is scary because he has views - awful views.

I guess the only thing I have to look forward to is watching Trump supporters realize over the next 4 years how they were wrong, how they screwed up, as it all comes crashing down around us.

At least I'll get to say 'I told you so.'

or could the problem possibly be that it seems like more and more self-entitled spoiled brats these days, both white and black, seem to be far more interested in gang-banging than in learning?

[SoulReaver]

I am opposed to any union.. Police, teachres, dock workers. Doesn't matter.

under the LSOS one of those will have even stronger unions just wait & see hehe...

[Pharaoh Hamenthotep]

Check out the updated white house site.. One of them is already a priority..

[SoulReaver]

another of the LSOS's priorities will be rounding up his political opponents

we already know how Stalin Putin treats his opponents, his new vassal will do likewise

[Pharaoh Hamenthotep]

Did you notice how Trump quoted Bane from The Dark Knight Rises?

[jelgate]

or could the problem possibly be that it seems like more and more self-entitled spoiled brats these days, both white and black, seem to be far more interested in gang-banging than in learning?

*tags bacon symbol on MG's car*

BACON PRIDE FOR LIFE

[SoulReaver]

Did you notice how Trump quoted Bane from The Dark Knight Rises?

who?

oh you mean the LSOS

[aretood2]

Charter schools and allowing vouchers for other alternatives is the best way to do that.

Most smaller, suburban districts in the US are fine, the problems lie in the urban areas.
Particularly in heavily blue states like NY, one of the biggest problems is the education unions, who are only interested in lining their own pockets.
There is a city near where I live that has had piss-poor public schools for decades now. Back in the eighties, in an attempt at resolving the problem, the teachers' union pushed for and got a 40% across the board salary increase for teachers, on the theory that in order to attract the best to the teaching pool, you had to offer good wages.

So you want to punish me and take my salary because your NY teachers are ineffective when I and my colleges are effective? How is that in any way right? Why should I even bother, why should PA or MD teachers even bother if they'll still get punished because some NY teachers don't do a good job? And why should the federal government be involved in the first place? I'm ignoring a few issues with your POV btw...

How did they do?

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/...hest/28413437/

In 2013, this district spent around 20K per student. Of that, about 16K is for wages/benefits. What do the taxpayers get for this incredible expenditure?

One of the worst performing districts in the entire country, with graduation rates in the mid 40% range. Businesses and colleges in the area rate the competency of these students at around 5%.

And of course, the head of the union (who is the same guy that won the 40% increase in the eighties, btw) wants more money.

Yet Philly and Baltimore Schools do way better and they get good pay too. The issue here has more to do with your poor corner of the US vs my more prosperous corner of the US. But you seem to want to punish good public schools just because you have two bad districts next door. As you like to say, you can take your little plan and shove it up somewhere where there's no sunlight.

No, I'm sorry. The solution has to be first and foremost: Break the unions, and break them so hard that humpty-dumpty would feel good about himself. Charter schools and other alternatives are a way to do that, but of course, the unions oppose that idea, because those schools are mostly non-union, and they outperform the union schools hands down. You have to admit, it's a bit embarrassing for the union. By giving vouchers and the use of charters, Devos wants to give parents an alternative to the crappy, union-driven public school system.

Once again, punishing the good for the actions of the bad. Ignoring union driven schools that outperform many private schools.

Different circumstances, different results. I rather doubt that your schools are operated anything like the big urban districts in deep blue states like NY.
My graduating class was huge, too, 2000+ also, but it was in a suburban district, where the unions don't have the power they do in the big cities. Key difference: In NY, most districts have to put their budgets before the voters, preventing runaway greed on the part of the unions. The 5 large cities in the state do not have to do so, their budgets are set by elected politicians (Democrats) who have been basically purchased, lock stock & barrel by the education unions. The unions are a very big contributor to their campaign war chests. Therefore, there is no restraint of union greed in those cities.

Unions have strike rights in PA, and the budget isn't fowarded to the voters for approval. Yet...the schools do just fine, if not better than NY (Well...NYC excepted. But I don't understand why you don't include them in your little calculus...)

And how many times have teachers gone on strike at the expence of our kids, just cause they 'want more'..? All at the behest of their union bosses, often who make 20 times what the teachers themselves make..

Since when are they your kids? Since when do you even care about them? Last I remember, you'd leave kids out to die in a heart beat to teach their parents a lesson in "self responsibility". You don't even like bankrolling their education. If it were up to you, there'd be no money to educate them with. It'd only be for those who can afford it.

Bills don't pay themselves. Often teachers want more planing time to make more elaborate lesson plans. More resources to actually have hands on lessons and so on. All of that costs money. You see, teachers have to eat and live in a shelter that doesn't get below freezing or hot enough to fry eggs on the counter top during the summer. Student loans also tend to be real money grabbers.

The strikes I've read about are about pay at times. But then you have to consider, teachers do work around 45-50 hours a week but compensated only for 35 hours. That doesn't include things done during the summer either nor money spent on professional development and required post graduate education. Sure, in some places that some of it gets reimbursed. But in other places, like the really red areas in the country, it doesn't.

I'm not one to say teachers are not at fault (despite what Jelgate might think) but to lay sole blame is beyond stupidity. It's either malicious or idiotic or both.

I am opposed to any union.. Police, teachres, dock workers. Doesn't matter.[/QUOTE]

Dear lord. If police feel persecuted now with their big super strong unions...I can only imagine how much moral would plummet without those big super strong unions.

That's idiotic. I'm not the biggest supporter of unions but history shows the negative impact of no unions is just as bad as unions with too much power

This is my stance too. I'll add that there is no reason why private sector and public sector employees shouldn't have the same rights, opportunities, and protections. Government has no right in dictating how workers organize themselves. So if there are private sector unions, there should be public sector unions.

or could the problem possibly be that it seems like more and more self-entitled spoiled brats these days, both white and black, seem to be far more interested in gang-banging than in learning?

Here's the thing. The problems are multifaceted. There are many causes and contributing factors and thus they require many different solutions each unique to the locality of each school district. It's just easier to scapegoat an "obvious" criminal as opposed to dealing with a more complex situation. Also, another reason why solutions can't come from the federal government.

[Falcon Horus]

Barron Trump was so bored.

Saw a short video on CNN where he was playing peeckaboo with his nephew, while his Dad was signing stuff (apparently you Americans are going to get a National Day of Patriotism -- I thought that was your 4th of July but I guess Trump wants you to celebrate his birthday in more proper manner).

That didn't take long..

That's normal procedure. Those pages are being archived under Obama. Trump can fill those pages with his own stuff.

Though, I doubt LGBTQ, climate change and the likes will be back... but it's not abnormal for the pages to disappear.

And how many times have teachers gone on strike at the expence of our kids, just cause they 'want more'..?

Why do they go on strike?

I am opposed to any union.. Police, teachres, dock workers. Doesn't matter.

Well, I hope you like working at minimum wage, have no weekends, no vacation, no sick days, no bonuses whatsoever, nothing of any extra legal stuff (health insurance perhaps)... cause no unions gives employers and CEO's free reign to do whatever they like with their workforce.

Did you notice how Trump quoted Bane from The Dark Knight Rises?

That's all over twitter.

The POTUS twitter account also has a banner from Obama's inauguration

[SoulReaver]

(apparently you Americans are going to get a National Day of Patriotism -- I thought that was your 4th of July but I guess Trump wants you to celebrate his birthday in more proper manner).

maybe the LSOS wants to rival Kim Jong in his egotism

[aretood2]

I'm just going to jump into the middle here and say that I've always found it hilarious how Republicans consider any forward thinking, progressive, equalizing idea as "liberal nonsense," or part of some "liberal agenda" where hippies will walk around in their flower shirts demanding free things from anyone that passes by.

Republicans and conservatives are living the lives of centuries passed. Their ideals are outdated, unfair, and harmful. Yet, they persist. Women can't use birth control. Poor people don't deserve medical care. Gay and interracial marriages are the spawn of Satan and spell certain doom for the world.

I guess I just don't understand how you live in such a contrived bubble like that. Times have changed. The world has progressed. Conservatives are holding on white knuckled to these core values founded in the upper class white guys always coming out on top....with lots of money.

I wouldn't sell conservatism short because of a current fad of right wing populism that has taken hold of the GOP.

I mean, we're seriously at a point in scientific advancement where we are attempting to send people to another planet - yet so many people ignore and don't believe thousands of years of scientific discovery that have led us to learn about things like climate change, or nuclear fallout, or whatever else conservatives shrug off for reasons I can't even begin to fathom.

While this is beyond the point...belief in creationism (at least in those who are actually theologically educated) is not about evidence and proof. It's about faith. It's not that people don't know or understand the science. To say otherwise makes you no different than your "White devils" that you're ranting about.

I'm a former teacher - and watching our education system struggle and flounder under Arne Duncan was infuriating. Obama's Race to the Top program was garbage, and Duncan was a psychology major with no experience teaching children, or understanding the public school system. Now we've got this DeVos lady who quite literally wants to dismantle public education so she can make money. I don't even get into my disdain for Charter schools - that's a whole other post. Going into her hearing, we already knew she knew nothing about public education, but holy smokes - what a cluster****. She didn't even do her homework to prepare for this. She knew nothing about federally funded or mandated programs, she didn't understand how children and teachers were evaluated, she didn't even know the difference between proficiency and progress. She has never set foot in a public school. Yet, here we are, with another guaranteed appointment because the GOP has a vendetta against the "liberal agenda."

To be fair, the Liberal agenda is just as bad as the conservative. Conservatives want to defund education. Liberals want to make it all about raising little sheltered snowflakes. Both don't mind testing kids to death.

And again, I should note there isn't an "agenda," except maybe bringing equality to all aspects of life for everyone. Education, healthcare, salaries, affordable housing, etc etc.

Correction. It's about bringing equality to whatever group is in fashion at the time. Liberals have a serious case of Attention Deficit Disorder when it comes to that. Basically, you can call Mexicans rapists but if you even look at a LGBT person funny....God have mercy on your poor soul. I'm just waiting for it to be fashionable to fight for Hispanics' rights...beyond lip service anyway.

This exact reason is why I also have never supported any Republican ideals. Especially now, their entire platform is based on religion. You can't create laws for an entire country with as much diversity as the US that are based on your single-minded religious beliefs.
You can't. It's wrong.
They believe abortion is wrong. Fine. That's your belief. But you can't mandate that no woman, ever, can't get one. That's not your choice. Sometimes it's medically necessary.
Perhaps if you allowed women free access to birth control, the abortion issue would be a completely moot-point, because you wouldn't have a need for it! It boggles the mind that conservatives can't see this. And even so, it's been studied and shown that birth control also helps women with the cycles. I know moon blood is a scary weird thing to Republicans but time for the old white guy mantra of women are sub-human creatures to go away. Forever.

Not to defend your white devils, but expecting people to take the hard pill of ignoring murder because others don't believe it is murder is a bit....what's the word? Naive?

They believe gay marriage is sinful. Fine. That's your belief. But you can't mandate that two people who love each other cannot be legally married, and just because they are gay means they aren't allowed access to things like benefits. I mean, why is that even a thing? Seriously why should they be denied anything just because the person they love and marry is the same sex?

Not everyone who is against it believes in sins. Take Annoyed and Garhkal. They are agnostic...and very anti gay marraige.

Sure sure, the constitution, the founding fathers, blah blah blah whatever. That was 300 years ago. Guess what - it's not 300 years ago. Time to get over it. You're more than welcome to live in your little Republican values bubble in your own home, but you simply cannot force others to legally abide by it. It's wrong. On so many levels.

The constitution?

Conservative ideals always support what's best for them, not what's best for the world at large. The nasty "liberal agenda" supports what's best for everyone, and like I said, I just don't get how so many people can be so blind to that.

That's a huge simplification. Though I am not sure if you mean the world globally, or the world as all Americans.

Today we're going to inaugurate a complete buffoon into one of the most respected and powerful positions on the planet. He's surrounded himself with people who have some of the worst personal beliefs around. IT IS TERRIFYING.

I just hope Congress realizes that Trump is off his rocker and decides not to rubber stamp everything just because he's Trump. It's the best we can do right now.

[mad_gater]

If I recall my history lessons correctly, government control of the education system was the first step in the establishment of an authoritarian regime...if the government controls the education system then it can control what gets taught by "banning" certain books from being used in schools

So from where I'm sitting I'm not exactly too thrilled with the entire concept of government controlled education. If I recall it was the parochial schools that used to educate the indigent.

[mad_gater]

the liberal agenda is good for everyone? so taxing everyone into an equal level of poverty, which is what the liberal agenda typically supports (having taxpayers pay for pretty much everything) is good for everyone? having a long arduous and exceptionally burdensome tax code that only seeks to punish those who've worked hard to become successful so that the gangbangers can leech off taxpayer money is good for everyone? you have a strange definition of "good for everyone"

[garhkal]

That's idiotic. I'm not the biggest supporter of unions but history shows the negative impact of no unions is just as bad as unions with too much power

I agree. In the past (1920s through maybe even the 50s) they had a purpose and did good. BIT they even back then were rife with bullying, mob tactics, bribery and corruption. These days they are imo a hell of a lot worse..