The Political Discussion Thread

[Gatefan1976]

If we do it to other countries, we can't complain if they do it to ours..
That's my stance.

What if they did it so Hillary would have won?
Oh, and have you not complained about rigged voting machines?

I get the meaning of what you are saying (turnabout is fair play) and most of the time I would agree with you, but this is not internal party/country squabbling, nor are you a minor (relatively speaking) nation. I just don't get how you could apply that kind of logic to the manipulation of the highest office in your land by a hostile nation.

[Annoyed]

I'm a former teacher - and watching our education system struggle and flounder under Arne Duncan was infuriating. Obama's Race to the Top program was garbage, and Duncan was a psychology major with no experience teaching children, or understanding the public school system. Now we've got this DeVos lady who quite literally wants to dismantle public education so she can make money. I don't even get into my disdain for Charter schools - that's a whole other post. Going into her hearing, we already knew she knew nothing about public education, but holy smokes - what a cluster****. She didn't even do her homework to prepare for this. She knew nothing about federally funded or mandated programs, she didn't understand how children and teachers were evaluated, she didn't even know the difference between proficiency and progress. She has never set foot in a public school. Yet, here we are, with another guaranteed appointment because the GOP has a vendetta against the "liberal agenda."

And again, I should note there isn't an "agenda," except maybe bringing equality to all aspects of life for everyone. Education, healthcare, salaries, affordable housing, etc etc.

DeVos ( I wonder how long before some Whovian twists her name to Davros?) doesn't want to destroy the schools, she wants to improve them, and improve access to better schools to all students, not just those with rich parents who can afford to bypass the public schools completely.

Charter schools and allowing vouchers for other alternatives is the best way to do that.

Most smaller, suburban districts in the US are fine, the problems lie in the urban areas.
Particularly in heavily blue states like NY, one of the biggest problems is the education unions, who are only interested in lining their own pockets.
There is a city near where I live that has had piss-poor public schools for decades now. Back in the eighties, in an attempt at resolving the problem, the teachers' union pushed for and got a 40% across the board salary increase for teachers, on the theory that in order to attract the best to the teaching pool, you had to offer good wages.

How did they do?

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/...hest/28413437/

In 2013, this district spent around 20K per student. Of that, about 16K is for wages/benefits. What do the taxpayers get for this incredible expenditure?

One of the worst performing districts in the entire country, with graduation rates in the mid 40% range. Businesses and colleges in the area rate the competency of these students at around 5%.

And of course, the head of the union (who is the same guy that won the 40% increase in the eighties, btw) wants more money.

No, I'm sorry. The solution has to be first and foremost: Break the unions, and break them so hard that humpty-dumpty would feel good about himself. Charter schools and other alternatives are a way to do that, but of course, the unions oppose that idea, because those schools are mostly non-union, and they outperform the union schools hands down. You have to admit, it's a bit embarrassing for the union. By giving vouchers and the use of charters, Devos wants to give parents an alternative to the crappy, union-driven public school system.

[Falcon Horus]

DeVos ( I wonder how long before some Whovian twists her name to Davros?) doesn't want to destroy the schools, she wants to improve them, and improve access to better schools to all students, not just those with rich parents who can afford to bypass the public schools completely.

Actually, the Whovian-link didn't even cross my mind. DeVos is a Dutch name, and means TheFox in English.

I actually had a teacher in highschool whose last name was De Vos. She taught history, and in no way affiliated with Betsy DeVos.

However, no, she doesn't want to improve education. She's a menace to the system. She has no experience in the field of education. Has indeed, never set foot in a public school. Her children are homeschooled.
She's donated to Christian schools.

And let's not forget who this woman's mother and brother are. Elsa Price, which I posted about in relation to her donation to the Pro-Prop8 bill in California. And her brother's the founder of Blackwater.

With a background, like that, she isn't interested in making the school system better for everyone.

[SoulReaver]

DeVos ( I wonder how long before some Whovian twists her name to Davros?) doesn't want to destroy the schools

she wants to exterminate them

And her brother's the founder of Blackwater

for that alone it'd be legitimate to exterminate him

[Gatefan1976]

DeVos ( I wonder how long before some Whovian twists her name to Davros?) doesn't want to destroy the schools, she wants to improve them, and improve access to better schools to all students, not just those with rich parents who can afford to bypass the public schools completely.

Charter schools and allowing vouchers for other alternatives is the best way to do that.

DeVos want's to give taxpayer money to Private (mainly Christian) schools.

Most smaller, suburban districts in the US are fine, the problems lie in the urban areas.
Particularly in heavily blue states like NY, one of the biggest problems is the education unions, who are only interested in lining their own pockets.
There is a city near where I live that has had piss-poor public schools for decades now. Back in the eighties, in an attempt at resolving the problem, the teachers' union pushed for and got a 40% across the board salary increase for teachers, on the theory that in order to attract the best to the teaching pool, you had to offer good wages.

How did they do?

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/...hest/28413437/

In 2013, this district spent around 20K per student. Of that, about 16K is for wages/benefits. What do the taxpayers get for this incredible expenditure?

One of the worst performing districts in the entire country, with graduation rates in the mid 40% range. Businesses and colleges in the area rate the competency of these students at around 5%.

It's always the same schools and the same district -every time- this comes up.

And of course, the head of the union (who is the same guy that won the 40% increase in the eighties, btw) wants more money.

So, like everyone else then.

No, I'm sorry. The solution has to be first and foremost: Break the unions, and break them so hard that humpty-dumpty would feel good about himself. Charter schools and other alternatives are a way to do that, but of course, the unions oppose that idea, because those schools are mostly non-union, and they outperform the union schools hands down. You have to admit, it's a bit embarrassing for the union. By giving vouchers and the use of charters, Devos wants to give parents an alternative to the crappy, union-driven public school system.

Charter schools -on average- perform no better than public schools.
Vouchers are a way to funnel public money into private schools.
Net result, public system fails, costs for private goes up, vouchers will not make a difference to poorer or low middle class, vast majority of kids end up in less well funded schools.

Just how much do you think teachers should be paid BTW?

[Annoyed]

Charter schools -on average- perform no better than public schools.

Beats the hell out of a publc school dist. like the one I referenced. Which school would you rather send your kid to?

Vouchers are a way to funnel public money into private schools.

You could look at that as allowing parents who couldn't otherwise afford anything but the crappy city school district to get their kid in a better school.

Net result, public system fails, costs for private goes up, vouchers will not make a difference to poorer or low middle class, vast majority of kids end up in less well funded schools.

Oh, yeah, the old "It drains money from public schools mantra."
That city school district is spending 20K per student. If money was the solution, those kids ought to be the best educated in the country.

Just how much do you think teachers should be paid BTW?

Whatever they can get on the open market ON THEIR OWN, without the union buying them the kitchen sink by bankrolling the campaigns of the Democratic legislators in this hopelessly blue state.

[Gatefan1976]

Beats the hell out of a publc school dist. like the one I referenced. Which school would you rather send your kid to?

It's ONE district in ONE state. Do you know how averages work, or do you just like beating on the same one drum?
As for my kids, I would send them to the best I can, and the best for most is public schools. If you want to talk about moving kids "out of area" to go to a better public school if space allows, then sure.

You could look at that as allowing parents who couldn't otherwise afford anything but the crappy city school district to get their kid in a better school.

No, they won't because the vouchers WILL NOT COVER all costs of school, leaving those incapable of making up the difference to go to a now crappier city school because they are receiving less funding.

Oh, yeah, the old "It drains money from public schools mantra."
That city school district is spending 20K per student. If money was the solution, those kids ought to be the best educated in the country.

Why don't you look into the breakdown of how that money is split up, rather than just throw the figure out there, cause I'll tell you right now, the -ACTUAL- teachers get nothing like that. Is there wastage in schools? Yes. Is it the -teachers- NO.

Whatever they can get on the open market ON THEIR OWN, without the union buying them the kitchen sink by bankrolling the campaigns of the Democratic legislators in this hopelessly blue state.

I'll take that as no clue then.

[garhkal]

What if they did it so Hillary would have won?

Point taken. Many would be just as peeved..

Oh, and have you not complained about rigged voting machines?

Yes, since iirc those were being mentioned as being rigged possibly by George Soros, someone who funds a lot of the dem party..

[Falcon Horus]

Just how much do you think teachers should be paid BTW?

I think my aunt, who's a school teacher in first year of primary school (5-6 year olds), makes about 30,000 euro/year (Belgium - Flanders).

My mother was a teacher, another aunt taught in highschool (she was a lawyer before that), a cousin who went into teaching, so... I'm surrounded by educational experience.

Beats the hell out of a publc school dist. like the one I referenced. Which school would you rather send your kid to?

I went to a public school -- 250 students, of all backgrounds, and we all knew eachother by name.

In the center of the town was a Catholic school -- 2000 students, less variety in background, and they hardly knew who they were in class with.

And we beat them every year at the Rotary story-writing competition.

[Annoyed]

I think my aunt, who's a school teacher in first year of primary school (5-6 year olds), makes about 30,000 euro/year (Belgium - Flanders).

My mother was a teacher, another aunt taught in highschool (she was a lawyer before that), a cousin who went into teaching, so... I'm surrounded by educational experience.



I went to a public school -- 250 students, of all backgrounds, and we all knew eachother by name.

In the center of the town was a Catholic school -- 2000 students, less variety in background, and they hardly knew who they were in class with.

And we beat them every year at the Rotary story-writing competition.

Different circumstances, different results. I rather doubt that your schools are operated anything like the big urban districts in deep blue states like NY.
My graduating class was huge, too, 2000+ also, but it was in a suburban district, where the unions don't have the power they do in the big cities. Key difference: In NY, most districts have to put their budgets before the voters, preventing runaway greed on the part of the unions. The 5 large cities in the state do not have to do so, their budgets are set by elected politicians (Democrats) who have been basically purchased, lock stock & barrel by the education unions. The unions are a very big contributor to their campaign war chests. Therefore, there is no restraint of union greed in those cities.

[Falcon Horus]

Hey, if you wanna kill your education system and sink even lower on the list -- go right ahead, and put TheFox in the hen house.

Go and ruin your future's generations.

[Annoyed]

Hey, if you wanna kill your education system and sink even lower on the list -- go right ahead, and put TheFox in the hen house.

Go and ruin your future's generations.

Go back and read the article I showed GF. If that doesn't look like we're ruining the schools, what would?
I don't advocate destroying the schools, I want to fix them, but keeping the unions in control sure isn't the way to do it.

[Pharaoh Hamenthotep]

But putting someone with no experience running so much as a bakesale in charge of the entire educational system makes sense to you?

I've seen her interviews, she hasn't got a clue.

[Gatefan1976]

Go back and read the article I showed GF. If that doesn't look like we're ruining the schools, what would?

It's ONE school district in ONE state.
Bottom 10 States for education outcomes (1 being the worst):
1: LA - Red State
2: NM - Blue State
3: AK - Red State
4: AZ - Red State
5: DC - Blue State
6: MS - Red State
7: WV - Red State
8: NV - Purple State
9: OR - Blue State
10: SD - Red State

Top performing States (1 being best)
1: MA: - Blue State
2: NJ: - Blue State
3: CO: - Blue State
4: VM: - Blue State
5: WI: - Blue State
6: NH: - Blue State
7: VA: - Purple State
8: MA: - Blue State
9: DL: - Blue State
10: MN: - Blue state

Wow, red states don't even get a look in for the top 10, and those bottom ones are the states that are pushing for the kinds of things you want.
But sure, your one district is a -really- important one...........

I don't advocate destroying the schools, I want to fix them, but keeping the unions in control sure isn't the way to do it.

You -know- that, or you -feel- that?
Look, you may not be -intentionally- trying to destroy schools, and I have to say, I don't think you are either. What I -will- say however is that you have not explored the school system all that much, all someone has to say is "union" and your proverbial eyeballs explode.
Have you ever worked in a Union job?
Given that you are have said you were a mechanic, I would assume so, but I don't know.

[Gatefan1976]

I think my aunt, who's a school teacher in first year of primary school (5-6 year olds), makes about 30,000 euro/year (Belgium - Flanders).

IIRC, Mrs GF got about 50k a year on her first year out teaching High school. She -does- make more than that now, but she has been teaching for 18 years.

My mother was a teacher, another aunt taught in highschool (she was a lawyer before that), a cousin who went into teaching, so... I'm surrounded by educational experience.

Half my RW friends are teachers or professors at Uni, so I feel ya