The Political Discussion Thread

[The Flyattractor]

Pure Bliss!

[Falcon Horus]

[pookey]

This ummm..... man....ummm......;lady.......thing makes sense

what is the great and confusing Jel trying to say ?

[The Flyattractor]

what is the great and confusing Jel trying to say ?

I think it is that he actually agreed with someone else's opinion and it sent his little mind into a tailspin.

[SGalisa]

...
Anyway moving on...

Ugh! I'm not in a writing competition, btw..
Will have break my reply into separate posts, if I have any time.

So I give you ...

4 reasons the Christian right longs for the apocalypse by Amanda Marcotte, Alternet

Apocalypse as explained in the Jewish Encylopedia

in spoiler brackets for space--

Spoiler:

The Jewish encyclopedia mentions about the mythical looking creatures in the study of apocalypse related passages. Imagery has an amazing imagination as its inspiration (might also be on how to capture one's reading attention, too.. as in "what was that??!"). Also, how else does a *primitive* mind explain wars in the future with technologies beyond 1st century C.E. comprehension? Well, at least that is how 21st century C.E. readers view 1st century C.E. writers. Ezekiel saw the wheel (Ezekiel 10:1-19), or a wheel within a wheel, etc...it was a UFO to some folks interpreting it.


But point here is that if one is reading the Bible with the Apocrypha books, of course it contains *MYTH* (mythical stories). Confusing the Apocrypha book sections with the (historically destined) apocalypse passages is where most of the problems come in. Remove the Apocrypha section, and the Bible is a historical record of past and future events--yet to come. That's why a counsel was established to trim out the excess (non-sense) and created the Septuagint (Bible) version, which is accepted within most protestant circles as the original, TRUE Bible.

Otherwise, people will be forever nit-picking at dots and dashes, etc. into eternity.
The Catholic Church holds onto the Apocrypha books, because it considers them as sacred and makes the (their version of the) Bible *complete*. The so-called *Lost* books and all.

About the Salon article... with quotes from article highlighted in maroonish color...
"4 reasons the Christian right longs for the apocalypse"
by Amanda Marcotte, AlterNet
Tuesday, Oct 15, 2013 12:00 PM UTC

Apparently, this article is referring to the RAPTURE. Not just the apocalypse happening, itself.

"1. They don’t think they’ll be around for the worst of it."

This *could be* very true for pre-Trib believers. I've read forums where pre-tribbers believe that they'll be gone once the fireworks start.

Not true for mid-tribbers and other tribber versions. In fact, it is a serious concern and NOT something *anyone* should be looking forward to. The consequences stated in the Bible are catastrophic in initially at various locations, but eventually world-wide, and within an approximate 1260 day period to 1335 day period during the worst case scenarios (Three and one-half years on the Hebrew calendar).

As for the other 3 items...
"2. The end of the world would mean they get to have the last word."

Depends on the person wanting to think that way.
Actually, God has the LAST word (always) -- in all things, not us humans.

"3. It provides a distraction from and an excuse to avoid the real problems in the world. The appeal of apocalypse fantasies is mainly that they help believers avoid the fear of death."

What???! Anyone who actually longs to die is in the Paul-happy (martyrdom) camp.
Fear of death? Only the RAPTURE can prevent death or dying. And ONLY pre-trib RAPTURE at that.
Otherwise, living thru the apocalypse would include how one dies -- in their sleep or some other horrible way.
Even Jesus (of Nazareth) was NOT looking forward to being crucified.. he prayed --if it were *possible* to please not go thru with it-- but knew he wouldn't be able to get out of this destiny and resigned himself to being crucified, because that was how the scriptures were written (prophecy about the suffering Messiah) was set up (Isaiah 53).

On the other extreme, eager beaver Paul looked forward to being crucified.. was Paul on drugs or something??? And I really cannot comprehend or believe Peter enjoyed being dragged into that (entire crucifixion) experience the way Paul saw it as.
Maybe Paul felt he needed to be punished. Peter wailed after he denied even knowing Jesus; and so I think Peter didn't see being murdered in the same POV that Paul did. Paul was good at manipulation (he claimed to be involved in having the Roman government crucify Jesus of Nazareth for treason). MAYBE--That's probably why as a Catholic, I read the 4 gospels and *clung* to what Jesus said and skipped over Paul's words, whenever those passages came up in Church.


"4. They want to see the non-believers punished and themselves instated as the rightful rulers of all mankind."

Oh dear. Ego trip, which God frowns upon.
Revelation 20-22 merely states who will be going where. That is not an ego trip, but a historical record of events.

I've heard conversations from some folks who claim they may be ruling on other planets, elsewhere in the universe (God's kingdom). But after seeing how troublesome it is to rule anyone on this proto-type earth (as a potential preview of things to come?), why would anyone in a proper frame of mind WANT to rule or govern over such (difficult to get along with) beings..?

The Bible states that there will be a counsel of 24 elders working with God to govern--but I think that simply reveals the fathers of the 12 tribes of Israel (sons of Jacob) along with the 12 apostles (with Paul among them, replacing Judas Iscariot) overseeing the universe in an eternal spectrum of sorts. Have no idea how it would work after the final resurrections and (Biblically stated) judgements.

Myth believers (people who don't accept the bible as historical reality) don't see any of this as real, so what's the point of this concern? Why is there such a concern about this stuff, if there is nothing to be afraid of..?


Sadly, the Bible does state that whatever does happen (bad) to people (in the last days before Messiah returns/comes), --as horrible as events get, these folks won't be turning to God thru any of those events-- they'll just go right back to doing whatever they were doing before they got *rudely* interrupted with such-and-such horrid event in their life. What will be, will be... and ...onto the next chapter in life.


. . . onto the next posting . . .

[SGalisa]

Yes, reliable sources... or more reliable than wikipedia which everyone can alter at will. Since every site is always skewed to one side or the other, and/or biased towards a certain side.

I usually google the info I'm looking for, but if wikipedia is conveniently also there, I might take a short cut over to wiki and scroll down to the references and then do cross-searching link with the references. That is usually how one does intensive, investigative searching of various materials. Helps when one particular location has several (more reliable) links in its references.

Always cross-reference (the main) sources -- sometimes, I thought our teachers liked seeing the reference pages more than the project report, itself. That's how we were taught to do school reports before the internet was even available in schools.
(= BC days)



So, how does quoting a source with a subscription work on web discussion forums?
Does GW now have to pay a subscription just to have a link posted (that's why I BREAK the link and make note of it in my post.. sorry if that process is annoying, because I hate breaking links just to note a ref source).

Didn't you mention that you read/heard somewhere that Iran and Israel were plotting together?

No. That's not what I said or intended to say, if it was misread that way. The news goes this way in various Israeli news articles (including Debka!).. It's not a game, but currently psychological warfare--
one week Iran threatens Israel, Israel threatens to fight back, then Iran backs off as if it was a joke and Israel calms down until the next round of threats. Which the threats used to come maybe monthly, but increased to weekly, and especially around the Jewish Holi-days, almost daily.

This has been going on in greater intensity for the last several years that I know of. It gets tiresome reading about it and wondering which part of the planet will get wiped out first. Reading the blogs or comments to articles is even worse with some folks claiming to be more sure of which side will be winning that war cycle than the opposing force(s), should such tactics ever go into causing actual, physical damage.

Seriously?!?

For all you know, I could be an extremist, leading you into goddess knows what...
There's always a suspicion about who's on the other side.

LOL. yah think?
Jeeeeze, all this time I thought sure you've been trying to recruit me into becoming a Muslim.

The comment by Snowleopard is particularly interesting as he/she calls it all myth and halftruths but firmly believes in the bible's truth - yeah, right....

(regarding the Blaze blogger comments--) I actually like some of the stuff Snowleopard says (especially the common sense stuff), but there are lines drawn where other items are definitely not in alignment with my own. Obviously, this was not one I agreed with upon, especially since I've studied this stuff enough to at least find current events *suspect* of being prophetically connected -- *never say never*, and never rule anything out, until all events pass into the past and none prove(d) that they were indeed connected at all.

Unless they are leading astray. Leaving breadcrumbs for you to follow and make you believe that they are trustworthy. Just sayin'...

As for authenticating (questionable) info on the city-data site (or anywhere), it helps when real life people from other sources and places reinforce what is stated on those forums. Just need to connect the overlapping dots. So very bizarre when those connections occur without even seeking to match the info up.

Just an observation, seems tho that the Christian-based forum AND subforum topics on the city-data site cannot be trusted (read the topic titles--seems like a bunch of kids posting who didn't read their study Bibles!), and yet the Islam subforum is still mostly pristine in its studies (cross ref with real life people involved elsewhere in our nation / world). Sage advice, don't mess with the Islam section. Wish that were possible with the Christian topics over there, but Christianity is destined to blur out and morph out, which is already happening -- with the internet sort of speeding the process up onto the fast track. *sigh*

About the Koran. If the Islamic community takes over the entire world, then it might become a requirement for everyone to read the Koran -- hopefully in one's own language...

You mean, like what Christianity is trying to do, and has been trying to do in the past with their crusades?
How it has killed infidels, or pagans who refused to convert.

Ahhh, the inquisitions and Salem/witch trials, etc. Convenient of those folks in positions of power -- using political methods of removing folks from pursuing one's own office agendas. Do you realize that genuine Christians were also murdered in those campaigns, as well as whomever the corrupted leaders decided to remove from living off the earth? One such person was William Tyndale, who was a genuine Christian who translated the Bible into English and sought to get it into the hands of English speaking people attending churches. He was murdered, because he became an interference in Church politics (affairs), so the Church officials asked the King (of England) (Henry VIII?) to have Tyndale murdered for "heresy". (spoiler below for space)

Spoiler:

From the newworldencyclopedia
see Persecution and murder of William Tyndale

quote---
"William Tyndale (sometimes spelled Tindall or Tyndall) (ca. 1494–September 6, 1536) was a sixteenth century Protestant reformer and scholar who translated the Bible into the Early Modern English of his day...
...
Following the publication of the New Testament, Cardinal Wolsey condemned Tyndale as a heretic and demanded his arrest.
...
He was tried on a charge of heresy in 1536 and condemned to the stake, despite Thomas Cromwell's intercession on his behalf. Tyndale was strangled and his body burned at the stake on September 6, 1536. His final words reportedly were, "Oh Lord, open the King of England's eyes."
----end quote----


Cross-reference with theopedia
"William Tyndale"
(retrieved April 5, 2014).

quote--
"...William Tyndale (ca.1484 - October 6, 1536) was a 16th century priest and scholar who translated the Bible into an early form of "modern" English. Although some English translations had been previously made, Tyndale's was the first to take advantage of the new medium of print, which allowed for its wide distribution. Forbidden to work in England, Tyndale translated and printed in English the New Testament and half the Old Testament between 1525 and 1535 in Germany and the Low Countries. He worked from the Greek and Hebrew original texts when knowledge of those languages in England was rare.

Tyndale's translation was banned by the authorities, and Tyndale himself was burned at the stake in 1536 near Brussels, Belgium, at the instigation of agents of Henry VIII and the Anglican Church. His last words were, "Lord, open the king of England's eyes."
----end quote----

There are a bunch of other sources, which basically state the same stuff as the above.
(encyclopedia.com, etc.)

Difference between what I think you understand of historical Christianity and genuine Christianity are the corrupted souls who have lived "Christian" in name only. That includes folks in high positions within the Churches, too. God knows who they are! Ezekiel 34 (all of it) states about how God himself will (govern and) separate the corrupted from the genuine. What applies in the Hebrew Testament also applies in the Greek Testament, so says Paul when he mentions about being *grafted in* as easily as being *grafted out* (of the chosen, genuine flock, see Romans 11:16-23). Oops, yeah, there are some things I do agree with Paul on, but not on his ego death-trip...! Zealous Christians make me nervous when talking like that! I remember what Jesus went thru and think of what his moods were during the various politics occurring around his life. *sigh*

Church politics get just as nasty or nastier than regular governmental politics. Just depends on who controls any *condemning* sentencing (the hows and why).

[Coco Pops]

Don't forget the trials Gallileo went through....... Science is bad /sarcasm

[SGalisa]

Don't forget the trials Gallileo went through....... Science is bad /sarcasm

But I *liked* studying about Galileo Galilei (15 February 1564 – 8 January 1642). When the Doctor (Doctor Who) introduced Sarah Jane to Giuliano (The Masque of Mandragora episode), I'm almost certain there was a reference also to Galileo somewhere, besides being a story about the Doctor's quest to meet Leonardo da Vinci. That entire story was the episode that sold my soul (captured it?) faithfully to Doctor Who from 1982 to current now days.

(Should I feel bad about this? or do I feel guilty? ummm. no.
afterall, I was DW's worst critic before I realized or *understood* what the Tv series was even about. =)
So much for *preconceptions*.
And that was both a political and religious story wrapped up together.
The blending worked.

Science is GOOD. . . especially when approached from the Doctor's POV.

[P-90_177]

This might be a random place to post this but I figure it's topical and there's a good mix of different opinions in this thread.

Without giving too much away I'm in the middle of writing a Sci-fi short story featuring an advanced race of humans. In doing so I'm writing that the people are largely homogenized due to races having fully mixed and interbred and over the years such differences such as black and white and Asian have slowly disappeared.

However I am currently working with one character who I am debating making a clearly white complexion, a point of which he has been teased about when he was at school and still is a little bitter about.

The question I'm wondering about therefore is does this seem like a fairly reasonable character point to make? Or is it perhaps a subject I'm better off not broaching?
I should point out that the teasing does serve to drive him forward to accomplish great things in his life. It's not just there as a random point.

[Coco Pops]

But I *liked* studying about Galileo Galilei (15 February 1564 – 8 January 1642). When the Doctor (Doctor Who) introduced Sarah Jane to Giuliano (The Masque of Mandragora episode), I'm almost certain there was a reference also to Galileo somewhere, besides being a story about the Doctor's quest to meet Leonardo da Vinci. That entire story was the episode that sold my soul (captured it?) faithfully to Doctor Who from 1982 to current now days.

(Should I feel bad about this? or do I feel guilty? ummm. no.
afterall, I was DW's worst critic before I realized or *understood* what the Tv series was even about. =)
So much for *preconceptions*.
And that was both a political and religious story wrapped up together.
The blending worked.

Science is GOOD. . . especially when approached from the Doctor's POV.

No I meant that the trials he went though regarding his theories and the rather antagonistic attitude the "church" took towards him...... He was under house arrest for his beliefs.....

[mad_gater]

No I meant that the trials he went though regarding his theories and the rather antagonistic attitude the "church" took towards him...... He was under house arrest for his beliefs.....

actually the resistance to heliocentricity came largely from Protestant circles, though there were SOME Catholics who sided with the Protestants

the Catholic Church was actually a big supporter of the astronomers of the time.....the only problem with Galileo was that he had a large ego and couldn't stand the fact that he simply didn't have enough proof at the time to support heliocentricity (that would come later when they found a way to observe parallax shifts in the position of the stars as the earth moved in its orbit around the sun)...all he had was data that made some people go "hmm".....a far cry from the unequivocal proof he needed.....but he touted his theories as scientific fact anyway....he also managed to insult his benefactors in the process too..essentially biting the hand that was feeding him

was the response of church authorities appropriate? no....but Galileo wasn't entirely blameless either.....his large ego got him into plenty of trouble

[Falcon Horus]

@SGAlisa -- I'll reply later. I am being interrupted at the moment.

However I am currently working with one character who I am debating making a clearly white complexion, a point of which he has been teased about when he was at school and still is a little bitter about.

The question I'm wondering about therefore is does this seem like a fairly reasonable character point to make? Or is it perhaps a subject I'm better off not broaching?
I should point out that the teasing does serve to drive him forward to accomplish great things in his life. It's not just there as a random point.

From my POV I'd say it's fairly reasonable point to make, especially if it drives him to do better and drive himself to success. It wouldn't be different if it was someone with a darker complexion, or a woman in a man's world.

But that's just my view...

[Falcon Horus]

Ugh! I'm not in a writing competition, btw..

Not competing for the most words, but damn you're hard to keep up with...

Apocrypha Texts for anyone interested.

Remove the Apocrypha section, and the Bible is a historical record of past and future events--yet to come.

The old testament are stories, meant to teach the populus (who couldn't read or write) about morals and ethics. There's nothing historical about it. You will find the same stories all over the middle eastern in different versions. Even in pre-american societies you'll find common elements.

The new testament is not so much historical as it is manipulated. They kinda left out a lot of things, however it suited them at Nicea that one time they were talking about what to include and what not to include. So, how can you claim it "prophesices" events?

...people will be forever nit-picking at dots and dashes, etc. into eternity...

Leave out a passage here and there -- nobody's gonna miss it anyway.

"2. The end of the world would mean they get to have the last word."

Depends on the person wanting to think that way.
Actually, God has the LAST word (always) -- in all things, not us humans.

If you believe in god ... but if you don't (like myself) than I will have the last word.

Fear of death? Only the RAPTURE can prevent death or dying. And ONLY pre-trib RAPTURE at that.

Except that death is a part of life, and no one can escape it. No matter how hard they try.

Even Jesus (of Nazareth) was NOT looking forward to being crucified.. he prayed --if it were *possible* to please not go thru with it-- but knew he wouldn't be able to get out of this destiny and resigned himself to being crucified, because that was how the scriptures were written (prophecy about the suffering Messiah) was set up (Isaiah 53).

I doubt Jesus thought of the crucifixion as his destiny considering it was simply a Roman form of punishment. That's what the bible made of it after the fact.

If the Romans had known about the Blood Eagle, I'm sure they would have used that one instead. They might have known, and chosen not to use it as it kills too quickly.

On the other extreme, eager beaver Paul looked forward to being crucified.. was Paul on drugs or something???

Are the people who have themselves nailed to the cross over Easter on drugs?

Myth believers (people who don't accept the bible as historical reality) don't see any of this as real, so what's the point of this concern? Why is there such a concern about this stuff, if there is nothing to be afraid of..?

Because it's the believers who fly the planes into the towers. It's the believers who blow themselves up to become martyrs for that belief - taking innocent lives with them. That's why there is cause for concern.

Sadly, the Bible does state that whatever does happen (bad) to people (in the last days before Messiah returns/comes), --as horrible as events get, these folks won't be turning to God thru any of those events-- they'll just go right back to doing whatever they were doing before they got *rudely* interrupted with such-and-such horrid event in their life. What will be, will be... and ...onto the next chapter in life.

Kinda like how one moment you're minding your own business, reading the paper with your morning coffee, and the next a nuclear bomb explodes (Nagasaki, Hiroshima 1945), or the Japanese attack your fleet (Pearl Harbor 1941), or you're at the beach wondering where all the water went, and the next a tsunami hits the shores swiping thousands of people off their feet (Phuket 2004).

That's how we were taught to do school reports before the internet was even available in schools.

AKA you'd spent so much time in the library wondering whether you should just move your bed there for convenience.

Does GW now have to pay a subscription just to have a link posted (that's why I BREAK the link and make note of it in my post.. sorry if that process is annoying, because I hate breaking links just to note a ref source).

If you link to a closed forum, the point of linking would be moot as it would require a membership to view the content. If the content is open to the public than link away. You don't have to break them up, just link.

Nobody likes hot linking but that concerns images and/or videos.

This has been going on in greater intensity for the last several years that I know of. It gets tiresome reading about it and wondering which part of the planet will get wiped out first.

At the rate we're going, Mother Nature will decide for us in that regard.

Reading the blogs or comments to articles is even worse with some folks claiming to be more sure of which side will be winning that war cycle than the opposing force(s), should such tactics ever go into causing actual, physical damage.

Whoever does win WWIII, it won't matter ... there is no victory in war, just loss. However, it's rather clear that this lesson has not been learned, and shall never be learned otherwise we wouldn't be having wartorn zones this very moment. Weapons have never solved a problem before, and will never solve a problem in the future. People do.

Jeeeeze, all this time I thought sure you've been trying to recruit me into becoming a Muslim.

It's not "recruit into Islam", but "convert to Islam".

Mother Nature is my deity of choice, with a little Horus thrown in for good measure. That falcon is my good luck charm.

...but Christianity is destined to blur out and morph out, which is already happening -- with the internet sort of speeding the process up onto the fast track. *sigh*

That you'll have to explain more, cause I'm not following.

Ahhh, the inquisitions and Salem/witch trials, etc.

Inquisition in Europe, and witch trials sure. Don't know the history of Salem, but I do know European history. Let's burn some people at the stakes! Whole families going up in flames... Cathars in Carcassonne (France) to name a few unfortunate ones.

Convenient of those folks in positions of power -- using political methods of removing folks from pursuing one's own office agendas. Do you realize that genuine Christians were also murdered in those campaigns, as well as whomever the corrupted leaders decided to remove from living off the earth?

See above.

Tyndale might have been a "genuine christian" but he questioned the church, and in those days that was a sure way to get yourself a one-way ticket to the after life.

Tyndale's translation was banned by the authorities, and Tyndale himself was burned at the stake in 1536 near Brussels, Belgium...

At Vilvoorde to be precise, and the castle no longer exists as it was torn down in 1774 and the stones used to build a prison, by order of Maria Theresa, the Empress of Austria.

Difference between what I think you understand of historical Christianity and genuine Christianity are the corrupted souls who have lived "Christian" in name only. That includes folks in high positions within the Churches, too.

Religion - whether genuine or not - has caused more trouble in history than anyone would care to admit.

Church politics get just as nasty or nastier than regular governmental politics. Just depends on who controls any *condemning* sentencing (the hows and why).

For some countries there is no divide between church and state, and those that do have a divide sometimes seem to forget. Politics, no matter what form or where from, is generally a layered onion, some of it rotten to the core and some not so much.

[mad_gater]

Actually William Tyndale was executed (rather gruesomely) by King Henry VIII and I believe that by that point he'd already broken away from the Catholic Church and formed his own breakaway church with himself as head, and he only did that because the Catholic Church, despite numerous theological disagreements with Tyndale, agreed with Tyndale that King Henry VIII's behavior of simply marrying women, using them, then discarding them, was quite wrong

[Falcon Horus]

Actually William Tyndale was executed (rather gruesomely) by King Henry VIII and I believe that by that point he'd already broken away from the Catholic Church and formed his own breakaway church with himself as head, and he only did that because the Catholic Church, despite numerous theological disagreements with Tyndale, agreed with Tyndale that King Henry VIII's behavior of simply marrying women, using them, then discarding them, was quite wrong

Strangled and burned at the stake according to what I read on a Protestant webpage, by order of Thomas More, then counselor at the court of Henry VIII. Tynedale seemed to me to be a Lutheran in the end.