The Political Discussion Thread

[aretood2]

Suffice to say, Russia is becoming a royal pain in everyone's rear end.

[mad_gater]

I'd argue that ISIS is the bigger pain in the mik'ta

[Gatefan1976]

sounds like the person that drew up the NATO treaty must've been drunk, high, or possibly both

Truman.

[garhkal]

Revolvers and Pistols are handguns


How many have you seen take more than two shots?
I won't argue that some can take a shot from a taser and keep moving, but I doubt many cops will try to subdue a suspect on their own either, unless they are John McClane

I have seen so far, 7 people over 17 yrs of security force training (mil) and two security jobs i have been with, take 2 or more shots.. One guy got 3 before he finally went down. BUT he was also a linebacker sized dude.

Practice.

Plus the guns that shoot these calibers are really heavy, and have recoil compensators built into the barrel.

Back to politics: Russia has suspended the visa-free entry for Turkish citizens, and has declared the intention to phase out import of food from Turkey as soon as possible. Approximately 20% of all vegetables sold in Russia are imported from Turkey, so it's a hell of a challenge to replace.

Sounds like biting off their nose to spite their face.. IMO that will hurt the Ruskies more than it hurts the Turks.

[Gatefan1976]

I'd argue that ISIS is the bigger pain in the mik'ta

ISIS is nothing, I hate to tell you, but it is no more than an annoyance.
Less people die all over the world from ISIS inspired Terrorism than do from far more pedestrian reasons, reasons that no one cares about, or will not fix, or don't even acknowledge as a problem to start with.

HOW people respond to ISIS however, that is more problematic.

[Gatefan1976]

I have seen so far, 7 people over 17 yrs of security force training (mil) and two security jobs i have been with, take 2 or more shots.. One guy got 3 before he finally went down. BUT he was also a linebacker sized dude.

So, in 17 years of actual -real world- knowledge, you have seen 7 people resist a single shot from a taser.
Thank you for proving my point

Sounds like biting off their nose to spite their face.. IMO that will hurt the Ruskies more than it hurts the Turks.

Well, that is up for debate.
I tend to agree with you, but Womble certainly makes a valid counterpoint.

[SGalisa]

Putin's spokesman Dmitry Peskov, meanwhile, announced that Russia possesses evidence that the son of Turkey's Prime Minister is involved in oil trade with ISIL.

I read about that as well. Oooooooo. Nasty if true.

First moves in the Russia- Turkey rivalry have been made. Turkey has declared that it will "do all it can" to restore the Nagorno Karabakh province to Azerbaijan. For the Westerners in the audience - that's an Armenian-populated former province of Azerbaijan that declared independence during the Armenian-Azeri war after the break-up of the USSR. It's a perpetual source of tension in the Caucasus. If the war reignites, Russia would be forced by the existing mutual defense agreements to directly intervene on Armenian side. Turkey is basically threatening to drag Russia into another war if Putin misbehaves any further.

Could Russia ignore it like NATO ignored Crimea?

Political manuvering by Russia I think will be the order of the day at least for the next year or so while they finish upgrading the military and building their "Very Rapid Response" units currently under construction. Such manuvers could very much by them the time they require, and potentially isolating Turkey from NATO by proving solid connections to ISIL certainly would be in their favour.

wow. Just read a bunch of info that possibly reinforces that Turkey + IS/ISIL/ISIS connection.

I used to think Russia was the *bad* guy, especially when the news stated Russia wanted to restore itself to its former U.S.S.R. land mass, or something like that (i.e., the full image of a bear-like figure in land formation.)

However, apparently, Turkey isn't so *innocent* as the victim in the more popular news circles.
According to the articles noted in the below quotes, Turkey is helping support the I.S. by buying their oil. Anyone that is against the I.S., meaning the Kurds and Russia -- oh, those peeps need to be stopped, distracted, or removed from the scene.. can't have anything interfer with the I.S. -- if the below info is correct and TRUE.

So, since Putin or Russia has made it very clear they are going after the Islamic State, but not stating how to the entire world's other leaders, Russia needs to keep protect itself from infiltration by the I.S., even if it is thru some indirect *mole* in another country.

Question---- is Turkey making nice-nice with I.S./ISIL/ISIS..?
It's obvious that Turkey NOT being nice-nice with the Kurds.

--and the USA supporting Turkey's (I.S. connection) side?
USA protecting the oil fields controlled by the I.S. and President Obama was basically declaring the excuse/reason for doing so is to protect the environment?

I can totally understand the environmental angle. But there are folks sounding off on the radio saying to bomb the fields and rebuild them later. Really? What precious little we have left of earth's natural energy resources, and people want to bomb these resources into smoke and dust? Earth is our only home for now. We don't have much time left to fly off to other planets and grab some of those other resources to keep us earthlings warm and comfortable.

So, in that light, maybe it's a good thing Russia made claims to the oil fields in the Artic a few years ago. Keep them fields out of the Islamic State's control.

"Turkey could cut off Islamic State's supply lines. So why doesn't it?"
by David Graeber
Wednesday 18 November 2015, 09:54 EST (posted in The Guardian)

In the wake of the murderous attacks in Paris, we can expect western heads of state to do what they always do in such circumstances: declare total and unremitting war on those who brought it about. They don't actually mean it. They've had the means to uproot and destroy Islamic State within their hands for over a year now. They've simply refused to make use of it....

Spoiler:

How could Isis be eliminated? In the region, everyone knows. All it would really take would be to unleash the largely Kurdish forces of the YPG (Democratic Union party) in Syria, and PKK (Kurdistan Workers' party) guerillas in Iraq and Turkey. These are, currently, the main forces actually fighting Isis on the ground. They have proved extraordinarily militarily effective and oppose every aspect of Isis's reactionary ideology.

But instead, YPG-controlled territory in Syria finds itself placed under a total embargo by Turkey, and PKK forces are under continual bombardment by the Turkish air force. Not only has Erdogan done almost everything he can to cripple the forces actually fighting Isis; there is considerable evidence that his government has been at least tacitly aiding Isis itself.
. . .

The exact relationship between Erdogan's government and Isis may be subject to debate; but of some things we can be relatively certain. Had Turkey placed the same kind of absolute blockade on Isis territories as they did on Kurdish-held parts of Syria, let alone shown the same sort of "benign neglect" towards the PKK and YPG that they have been offering to Isis, that blood-stained "caliphate" would long since have collapsed – and arguably, the Paris attacks may never have happened. And if Turkey were to do the same today, Isis would probably collapse in a matter of months.

Yet, has a single western leader called on Erdogan to do this?

The next time you hear one of those politicians declaring the need to crack down on civil liberties or immigrant rights because of the need for absolute "war" against terrorism bear all this in mind. Their resolve is exactly as "absolute" as it is politically convenient. Turkey, after all, is a "strategic ally". So after their declaration, they are likely to head off to share a friendly cup of tea with the very man who makes it possible for Isis to continue to exist.

Also, there is this next, little (Newsweek) article as reinforcement to the Guardian article (as noted in above quote). It should also be noted that the Newsweek article came out in 2014, if I'm reading the date properly.

Please refer to link within the title for details to the article.
(Newsweek -- subscription may be required)

"'ISIS Sees Turkey as Its Ally': Former Islamic State Member Reveals Turkish Army Cooperation"
By Barney Guiton, 11/7/14 at 3:35 PM

Basically, the article was discussing about a communications technician, using a fake name 'Sherko Omer' for this article, who ended up working for the Islamic State and claimed in a nutshell that--
ISIS and Turkey were cooperating together based on the premise that they both have a common enemy to destroy, which is the Kurds.

Suffice to say, Russia is becoming a royal pain in everyone's rear end.

I'd argue that ISIS is the bigger pain in the mik'ta

Yeppers about the I.S. being the bigger problem there.
Not sure how true the next bit of news is, but ISIS apparently made videos targeting the Russian country of Georgia.

"Islamic State: Georgia Is Next"
Wed, November 25, 2015,
(Copyright © 2013 Clarion Project, Inc. All rights reserved.)

The world's most notorious terrorist group is threatening to behead Georgians in its latest shocking video.

. . . a fighter tells the camera. "Everybody who has acted against Islam, no matter in Iraq or Afghanistan, will be judged by God's law."

The speaker invokes typical ISIS propaganda accusing Georgians of persecuting Muslims.

"God is very strict; therefore we call on you to stop persecuting Muslims. Your actions against the Muslim will not remain unanswered. Everybody will be accountable for it. Soon there will be time of beheading you."
. . .

Georgian authorities blocked two pro-Islamic State websites in the country on Tuesday in an effort to clamp down on the group's propaganda...

Oh yeah, forgot to mention that there is a *climate change* conference in Paris this week, because according to President Obama (and the *Legacy* he is apparently making and defending to the enth degree) destruction to the environment is our greatest "terrorist" threat. (Only if nukes, biological and chemical warfare get involved in destroying everything else along with the rest of us humans trying to live on the only planet that is our home.)
So, for further reading on the environmental crisis, please see article at
"Obama Spares ISIS Oil Facilities to Save the Earth"
(By Daniel John Sobieski, November 28, 2015, article in the American Thinker)

[Gatefan1976]

I read about that as well. Oooooooo. Nasty if true.




wow. Just read a bunch of info that possibly reinforces that Turkey + IS/ISIL/ISIS connection.

I was speaking to some Turks today, and their opinion is that Turkey is slipping backwards, rather than forwards, so the chance that there is a legitimate connection between the two is certainly there.

I used to think Russia was the *bad* guy, especially when the news stated Russia wanted to restore itself to its former U.S.S.R. land mass, or something like that (i.e., the full image of a bear-like figure in land formation.)

Russia may well want to return to it's USSR days, I would hardly doubt Putin wants it that way in the slightest.

However, apparently, Turkey isn't so *innocent* as the victim in the more popular news circles.

In this instance, the one we are discussing, IE the plane getting shot down, well, yes, they were.
That does not extend however to anything else.

According to the articles noted in the below quotes, Turkey is helping support the I.S. by buying their oil. Anyone that is against the I.S., meaning the Kurds and Russia -- oh, those peeps need to be stopped, distracted, or removed from the scene.. can't have anything interfer with the I.S. -- if the below info is correct and TRUE.

You do know that places like, umm, the US buy oil from "questionable regimes" as well, right?

So, since Putin or Russia has made it very clear they are going after the Islamic State, but not stating how to the entire world's other leaders, Russia needs to keep protect itself from infiltration by the I.S., even if it is thru some indirect *mole* in another country.

I doubt Putin gives a crap about ISIS really. The opportunity and political spin to be garnered however he does care about.

Question---- is Turkey making nice-nice with I.S./ISIL/ISIS..?
It's obvious that Turkey NOT being nice-nice with the Kurds.

Turkey is doing exactly the same as some other Western nations.

--and the USA supporting Turkey's (I.S. connection) side?
USA protecting the oil fields controlled by the I.S. and President Obama was basically declaring the excuse/reason for doing so is to protect the environment?

Well, that's doubtful, More like the US wants them to stay so whomever they want to put in power next will give them a good discount.

I can totally understand the environmental angle. But there are folks sounding off on the radio saying to bomb the fields and rebuild them later. Really? What precious little we have left of earth's natural energy resources, and people want to bomb these resources into smoke and dust? Earth is our only home for now. We don't have much time left to fly off to other planets and grab some of those other resources to keep us earthlings warm and comfortable.

Yeah, WHO was saying that BTW?
I doubt it was some weak willed lefty ******.

So, in that light, maybe it's a good thing Russia made claims to the oil fields in the Artic a few years ago. Keep them fields out of the Islamic State's control.

I....... Errrr.........Um................
What?

Also, there is this next, little (Newsweek) article as reinforcement to the Guardian article (as noted in above quote). It should also be noted that the Newsweek article came out in 2014, if I'm reading the date properly.



Basically, the article was discussing about a communications technician, using a fake name 'Sherko Omer' for this article, who ended up working for the Islamic State and claimed in a nutshell that--
ISIS and Turkey were cooperating together based on the premise that they both have a common enemy to destroy, which is the Kurds.

And?

Yeppers about the I.S. being the bigger problem there.
Not sure how true the next bit of news is, but ISIS apparently made videos targeting the Russian country of Georgia.

Uh Huh.

Oh yeah, forgot to mention that there is a *climate change* conference in Paris this week, because according to President Obama (and the *Legacy* he is apparently making and defending to the enth degree) destruction to the environment is our greatest "terrorist" threat. (Only if nukes, biological and chemical warfare get involved in destroying everything else along with the rest of us humans trying to live on the only planet that is our home.)
So, for further reading on the environmental crisis, please see article at
"Obama Spares ISIS Oil Facilities to Save the Earth"
(By Daniel John Sobieski, November 28, 2015, article in the American Thinker)

Climate change VS terrorism......
One kills a few thousand people over 15 years.
One Kills thousands per event, which happen more frequently than terrorist attacks.
If only Obama looked at the "Big Picture"............

[Womble]

Event: Palestinian terrorist rams two Israeli soldiers with his car and is shot dead.

Reuters headline: Palestinian dies in ramming attack.

Classic case of "Israeli aggression".

It's systematic, not a one-off, this "accidental" omission of the fact that Palestinian "victims" were in fact attackers. Here's the BBC version. Here's the New York Times version. Yahoo News version. LA Times version. Et cetera ad nauseum.

[Falcon Horus]

Same old news then...

Israel at its finest again...

Israel suspends EU role in peace process with Palestinians

And all because they are required to label their products... aw, how sad.

[aretood2]

Event: Palestinian terrorist rams two Israeli soldiers with his car and is shot dead.

Reuters headline: Palestinian dies in ramming attack.

Classic case of "Israeli aggression".

It's systematic, not a one-off, this "accidental" omission of the fact that Palestinian "victims" were in fact attackers. Here's the BBC version. Here's the New York Times version. Yahoo News version. LA Times version. Et cetera ad nauseum.

The internet memes are worse. At least you can still mine the article for the facts, that they were attackers not random innocent children whose blood is spilled for Israeli sport. The memes on the other hand...they have that message, only that message.

Same old news then...

Israel at its finest again...

Israel suspends EU role in peace process with Palestinians

And all because they are required to label their products... aw, how sad.

Why would Israel want to aid a boycott on its products?

[SoulReaver]

not that I mean to defend the israeli govt (certainly not this one anyway) but what exactly is the purpose of imposing a labelling of israeli products?

does it only apply to israeli products?
what about those from arab countries?

[Coco Pops]

{Snipped.}

So ISIS don't like being called DAESH.....

Call the waaaaaaaambulance they are whining that they will hunt down people who use that name...

Why is the press giving them a free ride all the time with stories like this?

[Womble]

Same old news then...

Israel at its finest again...

Israel suspends EU role in peace process with Palestinians

And all because they are required to label their products... aw, how sad.

Yeah, we don't take kindly to unlawful discrimination like that.

The EU's new rules basically prohibit labeling products made in the Israeli towns beyond the "1967 borders" as "made in Israel"... if they're made by Jews. The last part isn't spelled explicitly, because it's the EU and polite hypocrisy must be maintained, but Arab businesses operating beyond the Green Line are not subject to the same requirements.

There are no similar rules, on the books or in the works, for Morocco regarding products made in Western Sahara, or for Turkey-occupied North Cyprus, or for China regarding Tibet, or for India regarding Jammu and Kashmir - for no other disputed territory anywhere. Only for Israel.

Now, the punchline is that this whole thing is illegal under the WTO rules. The founding principle of the WTO is non-discrimination; any member state is explicitly banned from boycotting or discriminating against other member states' trade. When Saudi Arabia joined WTO they had to formally renounce their participation in the Arab boycott of Israel. Carving out a special rule that applies to one country only is such an obvious slam dunk under WTO rules that the EU really wouldn't have a leg to stand on if it's sued.

The EU role in the "peace process" has been to pander to the Palestinians' every whim and to fund their war against Israel. I won't miss it.

[Gatefan1976]

Yeah, we don't take kindly to unlawful discrimination like that.

Umm, If everyone is doing it, and has been doing it for some time, what is the issue -now-?
Additionally, since when has discrimination been "lawful"?

The EU's new rules basically prohibit labeling products made in the Israeli towns beyond the "1967 borders" as "made in Israel"... if they're made by Jews. The last part isn't spelled explicitly, because it's the EU and polite hypocrisy must be maintained, but Arab businesses operating beyond the Green Line are not subject to the same requirements.

Can you give examples of this?
I mean, would you accept goods being labelled as "Made in Russia" if you knew they were made in Crimea?
I can see your issue is double standards, but can you -prove them-?

There are no similar rules, on the books or in the works, for Morocco regarding products made in Western Sahara, or for Turkey-occupied North Cyprus, or for China regarding Tibet, or for India regarding Jammu and Kashmir - for no other disputed territory anywhere. Only for Israel.

Can you point me in the right direction here please? I can find virtually no information on this issue.

Now, the punchline is that this whole thing is illegal under the WTO rules. The founding principle of the WTO is non-discrimination; any member state is explicitly banned from boycotting or discriminating against other member states' trade. When Saudi Arabia joined WTO they had to formally renounce their participation in the Arab boycott of Israel.

Ok, I get that.

Carving out a special rule that applies to one country only is such an obvious slam dunk under WTO rules that the EU really wouldn't have a leg to stand on if it's sued.

From what I can see, none of the states you mention are clients of the WTO (mind you, neither is Palestine) so what do they have to do with the WTO?
I mean, Cuba is on that list since 1995, but it has been discriminated against, hasn't it?

I am honestly trying to see your point, but I am just not getting it Womble, and it's not because it's Israel, I would be having the same issues if someone from......... Kashmir was making the same argument.
I just don't get what you are saying.
For Example. If some one wants to label "Mudgee Honey" as "Mudgee Honey", I expect it to be made in "Mudgee", not just in New South Wales somewhere.
I am not trying to be confrontational on the issue, I am trying to understand your point.

The EU role in the "peace process" has been to pander to the Palestinians' every whim and to fund their war against Israel. I won't miss it.

I don't know enough to say either way, So I will say nothing.