The Political Discussion Thread

[aretood2]

Question for you pro-lifers:
Doc concludes your future child will be severaly handicapped, how do you proceed?
Doc concludes your future child will not be viable, how do you proceed?

The ancient Greeks thought about this. Their answer was to leave the new born baby on the side of a hill to die, better death than a life of torment. But let me turn this question into a more comparable situation. Say that the doctor didn't find out until the 8th month of the pregnancy...would abortion be just as moral as if it were during the first trimester?

If not female: Your mother, sister, daughter was raped and is pregnant - how do you proceed? How does she proceed? Cause it has to be her choice (not the father, brother, husband).

There are plenty of hills where I live.

If female: you are raped (hypothetically speaking cause this should never happen, ever), how will you proceed?

Are you saying that only rape victims ought to have abortions? Otherwise, why concentrate on that? The main concern is on demand abortion.

Victims of incest become pregnant - how do you feel they should proceed?

You mean incest rape or Game of Thrones incest? If it's game of thrones incest...why is this even a question?

Your life is in danger (as the mother obviously) and you are pregnant, how will you proceed?

This is no different than the train scenario. You save the stranger or the loved one? That's not a "on demand" situation. You have to pick one and either way someone dies.

You have a lifethreatening disease for which you need immediate treatment, but you are pregnant, how will you proceed?

Train scenario too.

How much is that "human life" worth to you really?

That's a question that can only be answered if you concede that it is a human life. Beyond that, it's called "moving the goal posts." First talk about whether or not it's a life...and then we can talk about the above.

[Falcon Horus]

Say that the doctor didn't find out until the 8th month of the pregnancy...would abortion be just as moral as if it were during the first trimester?

I read a story about a woman (one the few famous Belgians we have) whose baby died in the womb, a miscarriage, 6 months in if I remember correctly. Doctor told her to go home, say goodbye and come back the next day to proceed with the birth.

There are plenty of hills where I live.

Okay... good to know...

Are you saying that only rape victims ought to have abortions? Otherwise, why concentrate on that? The main concern is on demand abortion.

I was painting a situation. A simple question - and no, I'm wholy in favor every woman can have an abortion, no matter the reason. There are always conditions which have to be met laid out by the laws of the land. If you scroll back a few pages, I'm sure you'll locate the European laws on abortion, country by country.

You mean incest rape or Game of Thrones incest? If it's game of thrones incest...why is this even a question?

I wasn't thinking of Game of Thrones when I typed that question - so basically all cases of incest.

This is no different than the train scenario. You save the stranger or the loved one? That's not a "on demand" situation. You have to pick one and either way someone dies.

But do you pick your own life over that of your future child? Or do you choose your future child over your own life?

I didn't say "on demand" anywhere - I'm putting out situations.

[aretood2]

Okay... good to know...

Personally this is why I do believe that there should be a public healthcare system, and particularly for people who need assistance the most such as the severely handicapped. Otherwise, we might as well revive the old Greek practice. And there are plenty of hills for that around here. To me saying "meh, abort 'em all" is resignation to life instead of fight for life. Sure, it's cheaper...but it's also cheaper to kill the poor (it will work to a point) but that is not a good reason to kill the poor. See video below:

Spoiler:

I was painting a situation. A simple question - and no, I'm wholy in favor every woman can have an abortion, no matter the reason. There are always conditions which have to be met laid out by the laws of the land. If you scroll back a few pages, I'm sure you'll locate the European laws on abortion, country by country.

What trimester? The third trimester is basically a baby. The second is the goey grey zone. And the first one is filled with philosophical quagmires regarding the ethical status of abortion depending if it is early or late into the trimester. And are you willing to condone an abortion out of aesthetic reasons? Perhaps the child had the wrong gender, eye color, will need glasses. All perfectly good reasons to end a pregnancy. No situation is merely simple, people will always go to the extremes, this is why we have laws in the first place. Also, ethics is why we don't kill the poor, not pragmatism.

I wasn't thinking of Game of Thrones when I typed that question - so basically all cases of incest.

So basically rape, right? I mean, it's repulsive to me and you. But there are people who don't feel as we do regarding incest. So really, what we are talking about is rape.

But do you pick your own life over that of your future child? Or do you choose your future child over your own life

?

I hope that's a general "you." Are we talking first, second, or third trimester? What is involved with saving one or the other? And can you really compare that to on demand abortion?

I didn't say "on demand" anywhere - I'm putting out situations.

None of which are on demand situations.

[Falcon Horus]

Personally this is why I do believe that there should be a public healthcare system, and particularly for people who need assistance the most such as the severely handicapped. Otherwise, we might as well revive the old Greek practice. And there are plenty of hills for that around here. To me saying "meh, abort 'em all" is resignation to life instead of fight for life. Sure, it's cheaper...but it's also cheaper to kill the poor (it will work to a point) but that is not a good reason to kill the poor. See video below:

That's the health care system, and as far as I am aware there are problems with that even in my little country.

What trimester? The third trimester is basically a baby. The second is the goey grey zone. And the first one is filled with philosophical quagmires regarding the ethical status of abortion depending if it is early or late into the trimester. And are you willing to condone an abortion out of aesthetic reasons? Perhaps the child had the wrong gender, eye color, will need glasses. All perfectly good reasons to end a pregnancy. No situation is merely simple, people will always go to the extremes, this is why we have laws in the first place. Also, ethics is why we don't kill the poor, not pragmatism.

Between weeks 10 and 26 - those are what I saw for the European countries. Belgium allows abortion up to week 26.

So basically rape, right? I mean, it's repulsive to me and you. But there are people who don't feel as we do regarding incest. So really, what we are talking about is rape.

You don't have answer the question, if you don't want to, you know.

I'm just getting the feeling here you're dancing around a little.

I hope that's a general "you." Are we talking first, second, or third trimester? What is involved with saving one or the other? And can you really compare that to on demand abortion?

I asked a question which if you don't want to answer, don't answer it and simply move on.

None of which are on demand situations.

What's "on demand" cause really I didn't ever mention that.

[aretood2]

That's the health care system, and as far as I am aware there are problems with that even in my little country.



Between weeks 10 and 26 - those are what I saw for the European countries. Belgium allows abortion up to week 26.



You don't have answer the question, if you don't want to, you know.

I'm just getting the feeling here you're dancing around a little.



I asked a question which if you don't want to answer, don't answer it and simply move on.



What's "on demand" cause really I didn't ever mention that.

Personally I don't condone (that's a no) it on anything other than a life or death situation, and much less beyond the first trimester. On demand means that someone decides to get an abortion for trivial reasons such as, aesthetics of the child, minor possible medical conditions of the child, they feel they aren't ready for kids, or simply do want to have a kid. Not the reasons you mentioned which would be much more valid.

[SoulReaver]

But let me turn this question into a more comparable situation. Say that the doctor didn't find out until the 8th month of the pregnancy...would abortion be just as moral as if it were during the first trimester?

let's make it an even more interesting question

consider the worst-case scenario where all aggravating factors (for Prolifers) are present: a 8 month pregnant woman goes to a clinic & gets an abortion because she changed her mind & no longer wants a kid, the foetus was viable without defects, woman is perfectly healthy & psychologically sane etc.

what should legal consequences be? who should be punished? (this is mostly addressed at the most fundamentalist Prolifers)

How much is that "human life" worth to you really?

That's a question that can only be answered if you concede that it is a human life. Beyond that, it's called "moving the goal posts." First talk about whether or not it's a life...and then we can talk about the above.

how much is that foetus worth to you really?

[Falcon Horus]

An abortion at 8 months in is not happening in the laws I found - the maximum timelimit is 26 weeks. At 8 months, the baby is simply born because it will be able to survive on its own unless something went wrong with it and it died in the womb.

[Coco Pops]

Senator John McCain. WTF?


He says he is intimate with ISIS


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VykV1JjJw4E

[garhkal]

Womble, nor the 12 page article that he linked states that this is the case, he is using other events to create a possible narrative.
Let me ask two questions though.
Why would MSF -pay anything- if there goal was to support "you" with medical assistance?
Shouldn't "they" be paying "you"?

From some of the articles (and womble) it seems that they were 'paying warlords' to operate their hospice in the warlords area..
Which to me is them payin the enemy..

let's make it an even more interesting question

consider the worst-case scenario where all aggravating factors (for Prolifers) are present: a 8 month pregnant woman goes to a clinic & gets an abortion because she changed her mind & no longer wants a kid, the foetus was viable without defects, woman is perfectly healthy & psychologically sane etc.

what should legal consequences be? who should be punished? (this is mostly addressed at the most fundamentalist Prolifers)

IMO both the mother AND the doc who carried it out should be tried for murder. Just like if someone shot that woman in the belly killing both HER and the baby would get two charges of murder.

[SoulReaver]

IMO both the mother AND the doc who carried it out should be tried for murder.

hoho! how about that
look who wants Government to control people - right down to what they do to themselves
and then they call out the left on wanting big government
pot kettle black, much?

[Womble]

Senator John McCain. WTF?


He says he is intimate with ISIS


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VykV1JjJw4E

He's talking about the Syrian rebels there.

But it's a very elegant way to skirt the Gateworld TOS, so I'm intimate with ISIS too. If you know what I mean.

[Annoyed]

IMO both the mother AND the doc who carried it out should be tried for murder. Just like if someone shot that woman in the belly killing both HER and the baby would get two charges of murder.

/agree

[Annoyed]

hoho! how about that
look who wants Government to control people - right down to what they do to themselves
and then they call out the left on wanting big government
pot kettle black, much?

So, you think the government should allow murder; "stay out of it" ?

Good to know.

[SoulReaver]

So, you think the government should allow murder; "stay out of it" ?

Good to know.

don't interfere with corporation$ but interfere with what people do to themselves
-- "small government", GOP-style

[Annoyed]

Stop trying to redefine it. Abortion is murder, plain and simple. And the government should not sit by and allow murder.