The Political Discussion Thread

[SoulReaver]

intersting link

Source: The Washington Post

This might help --> In Gaza and other war zones, how neutral is the United Nations?

so the UN has been the deliberate target of slamists on more than one occasion, wouldn't that strongly dissuade them from siding with Hamas? (unless they're unusually amnesiac)
or do they simply have no choice?

also the UNRWA is described as a "relief organization for palestinian refugees" - does that literally mean what it says as in, for palestinian civilians only? or will they also give shelter to any refugee in the area who ain't of palestinian origin?

[Gatefan1976]

There's actually something to it.

Of course there is.
SNIP Storytime

I think to a large degree, the Europeans don't "get" Israel because they don't "get" living with danger. They see resilience and determination as a kind of fanaticism and fanaticism has to be bad. Of the people I've met in my travels around the world, the friendliest to Israel were people who knew a thing or two about living with danger of one kind or another- Americans from the Midwest, rural Aussies (more so than urban ones), Singaporeans, Filipinos. Hong Kong Chinese are very friendly to Israel as well, but I'm not sure why.

I "get" living with danger, what I don't "get" is making that the main focus of everything. I don't worry every minute that one of the little beasties I live around may come and get me, it's just a fact of living where I do. I have (potentially) deadly spiders living not 10 feet away from me, but I don't care because I don't poke them, or try to kill them, and I have taught my kids to stay away from them and respect them.

It hasn't been that long since they could. Hell, it hasn't been that long that Iron Dome was considered a technological impossibility, and then it was considered too expensive, and then it worked because it had to.

Sure, but you did not address my question either.

The flaw in your logic is twofold: you're too ignorant and you're too desperate to explain away the obvious.

Oh this will be good

You're too ignorant because you don't know that Israel has always had bomb shelters for civilians, even when we were a dirt-poor agriculture-driven Third World state. The 1951 Civi Defence Law made bomb shelters and fortified rooms mandatory for every residential and industrial building. Children's playgrounds of the Gaza envelope communities have huge concrete tubes in which kids can hide when there are mortar or rocket attacks. They are painted to look like caterillars:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5YY_Z7lv8k

We have ALWAYS cared for our people. But not a single Arab country that's ever whined about Israel killing its civilians has a system of civil defense. You know why? Because they never cared to build one.

(There's a joke that dates back to 1948 but gets retold with every new war:
As air raid sirens go off in Tel Aviv, an elderly couple runs for the bomb shelter. The woman makes it inside, only to discover that her husband was left behind. She runs back outside and sees him looking for something on the ground.
"Haim, what are you doing?" she yells.
"Looking for my dentures," replies the old man.
"Haim, are you crazy? Do you think they're dropping sandwiches?")

You are trying to explain away the obvious because Gaza has no bomb shelters not due to inability but rather by design. Neither Hamas nor the Palestinian authority has ever bothered building any. They have poured thousands of tons of humanitarian aid-supplied cement into the ground to create kilometers of bunkers and tunnels, including tunnels intended to enable them to massacre the Israeli communities near the border (one exit was 300 meters from a kindergarten) but they didn't build a single bomb shelter for the people? That can only be for lack of interest, not lack of resources. They WANT their civilians to die in large numbers; it's how they turn Falcon Horus with her good intentions, exaggerated care for some innocent people over others and willingness to unashamedly employ collective punishment (boycotting Israel) at least on her personal level into their best strategic weapon. Lebanon does not have a civil defense either; neither does Syria or Egypt. They just don't spend the money on something as counterproductive as keeping people safe.

No, you are adding your own perceptions into the mix and assuming I have a lack of knowledge.
(I will admit the catapiller thing was unknown to me though)
I know you have had bomb shelters and such since 1951, it's hardly a surprise that a nation like Israel would place a high value on it's citizens considering it's neigbours, and the reasons for it's establishment as a nation. What I *do* find slightly disturbing is the notion that BECAUSE other nations don't spend as much on civilian defence, it's a fair reason to have non-coms end up as casualties. The question I would pose to you is this. "Just because the government of Palestine does not care about it's people, and use foreign aid to fuel their war machine, does that give you the right to feel the same way about them (the people)?

Are you, as a nation, BETTER than the terrorists that attack you, or are you just another terrorist yourself?
NOW, before you slap that moral indignation button, remember something. SOME of the people criticising Israel are doing it because they BELIEVE Israel is better than Palestine/Hamas, and if you don't act any better than the terrorists........
It's the same pickle the US finds itself in sometimes, and world opinion of the US is not all that high for the most part based on their "foreign policy" as well.
I'm not going to say it's fair, or that it is right, but that it merely IS, and you have two options. EDUCATE or DENIGRATE.
Education requires full disclosure of ALL activities, even the ones you may not like or are ashamed of. Denigration is much easier, all you have to say is "but you don't understand and never can", or you could just say they are "ignorant" or "alien" or are "just trying to justify their rage".

You said, a page ago, that you don't think that all Palestinians want to kill all Israelis, or that all Israelis want to kill all Palestinians.

I asked you how you knew that- whether it was a matter of belief - that is, conviction not founded on fact- or of observation grounded in fact.

When I said it, it was a matter of belief in my fellow humans. On further research I have found that both sides -from a people perspective, not governmental- think that a 2 state answer as proposed decades ago is still the "best option on the table".
From a governmental perspective, it is my personal feeling that the blowhards on the top won't be happy until it is one region or another is gone.

[Gatefan1976]

What do you mean?

You will never get rid off "mis-information"

Could part of the reason be that people just whitewash Hamas by saying "It goes without saying" and thus not mention their goals, tactics, and how Palestinian corruption adds to the conflict and how Hamas got into power in Gaza via popular vote (In fact, it made history by being the first Islamic group to win power in a democratic election in the area)?

Sure.
What are the Goals of Israel?
We need a peaceful barrier between us and Palestine, yet just this week they annexed 1000km of land, so they push back the boundary, which they then have to defend, then they take some more, which they have to defend, and establish a new neutral zone, which they will claim, and have to defend............

WHAT is the goal here?

I would choose to have the media fully inform the public by not throwing out valuable information because "it goes without saying." By not giving token "I blame both sides" none sense and actually stating why and how Hamas and Palestine are also to blame.

YES
Do it.

And as for youtube comments...we aren't talking about just internet nuts. We are talking about well known celebrities with audiences in the millions taking Hamas' side calling Israel genocidal and so on.

Links please.
I bet you that these celebs are not actually taking "hamas' side" here but are more concerned with humanitarian issues, but as they stupidly use twitter, there is only so much you can say in 140 characters. In addition, saying stuff like "Israel bombs blow up school hashtag sad" is not "pro-Hamas", it's a comment on it being SAD.
Read what is there, not what you want to see.

We are talking about entire nations in Latin America that have no idea what Hamas is, how it got into power, and its goals but still saying the same thing about Israel (tl;dr version of what they believe: Israel is evil, Hamas is a victim).

Sorry, but that's not my problem, and I will freely admit I don't know enough to comment on that as I have not tried to educate myself on such issues at this stage.

Latin countries, except a few like Mexico and Colombia, have even cut deplomatic relations with Israel. Interesting that nations that are dealing with conflict domestically like Mexico and Colombia would keep their ambassadors in Israel. It kind goes with what Womble was saying about how Europeans don't quite get it.

Oh hey, both those nations export a lot of drugs as well, MUST be a correlation/causation situation going on
Europeans "get it", they just don't respond in a way you would like sometimes.

Other nations down there are also playing "Follow the leader." The leader being Venezuela who has specific reasons to do that (Israel's ties to the USA). The rest fall somewhere in the middle.

Or, alternatively, the governments simply don't give a toss enough to have an "official position"

[Womble]

I "get" living with danger, what I don't "get" is making that the main focus of everything. I don't worry every minute that one of the little beasties I live around may come and get me, it's just a fact of living where I do. I have (potentially) deadly spiders living not 10 feet away from me, but I don't care because I don't poke them, or try to kill them, and I have taught my kids to stay away from them and respect them.

Then don't think funnel web spiders, think bush fire. You make it the main focus of everything when it threatens to burn your town to the ground; you do prevention work during quiet times to keep it from threatening your town in the first place. That's the Israeli mindset. We don't obsess over danger all the time; in fact, year after year we are ranked as one of the happiest nations of the planet despite being neither the richest nor the safest. When our enemies launch a violent campaign, we mobilize and put the fire out, then go back to normal life.

But just imagine, for a moment, that the firemen putting out that bush fire are told to wield their water cannons sparingly so as to not accidentally hurt the trees that aren't on fire yet, and are put on trial for every blade of grass they trample while saving the town.

Sure, but you did not address my question either.

I did.

No, you are adding your own perceptions into the mix and assuming I have a lack of knowledge.
(I will admit the catapiller thing was unknown to me though)
I know you have had bomb shelters and such since 1951, it's hardly a surprise that a nation like Israel would place a high value on it's citizens considering it's neigbours, and the reasons for it's establishment as a nation. What I *do* find slightly disturbing is the notion that BECAUSE other nations don't spend as much on civilian defence, it's a fair reason to have non-coms end up as casualties.

It's an inevitable outcome. A nation that protests its people will have a lower number of civilian casualties during war than a nation who does not.

The question I would pose to you is this. "Just because the government of Palestine does not care about it's people, and use foreign aid to fuel their war machine, does that give you the right to feel the same way about them (the people)?

That's a strawman. I don't feel that the Palestinian civilians are disposable or something. I simply don't believe that my army and my government should prioritize Palestinian lives over Israeli ones. They are MY army and MY government. They are there to protect ME. If they are willing to risk my life to minimize danger to the civilian population of an enemy, that's dereliction of duty.

Are you, as a nation, BETTER than the terrorists that attack you, or are you just another terrorist yourself?
NOW, before you slap that moral indignation button, remember something. SOME of the people criticising Israel are doing it because they BELIEVE Israel is better than Palestine/Hamas, and if you don't act any better than the terrorists........

We are better than the terrorist on so many levels that it doesn't even require proof. But you know what? If you think that if Israel isn't flawless it's no better than Hamas, then that's not the kind of criticism that deserves any respect. If you don't give credit to the enormous efforts and risks that the Israelis took in order to minimize harm to Palestinian civilians (for whom they are not, like I said, in any way responsible), then your pretense of friendly criticism is just a form of legitimizing the same outlandish accusations that the haters use.

And yes, there are some people out there whose criticism is legitimate. They do not equate Israel with the terrorists whenever an errant shell kills a child in Gaza, they just think that Israel "could do better than this". But as I once told my boss at work, "you can do better" is not constructive criticism. No one is perfect, so one can always walk into the office and say "guys, you're good at what you do, but you can do better". It's how the more stupid bosses at any workplace assert their authority when they have nothing of value to contribute to the project. If you want to be taken seriously, you must first know HOW to do better.

It's the same pickle the US finds itself in sometimes, and world opinion of the US is not all that high for the most part based on their "foreign policy" as well.

So screw world opinion.

I'm not going to say it's fair, or that it is right, but that it merely IS, and you have two options. EDUCATE or DENIGRATE.
Education requires full disclosure of ALL activities, even the ones you may not like or are ashamed of. Denigration is much easier, all you have to say is "but you don't understand and never can", or you could just say they are "ignorant" or "alien" or are "just trying to justify their rage".

Ah but it doesn't work this way.

I've wasted entirely too many years in such discussions trying to educate, and I've arrived to the conclusion that you cannot educate someone who doesn't want to learn. For one, discussions of politics - much like religion and unlike most other subjects- are one of those things in which people don't feel the need for any kind of knowledge base or qualifications. People don't like being told that they're wrong and they don't know; they get outraged and they think that first-hand knowledge is actually a bad thing. If you're involved, you're biased and your view is slanted; only the "uninvolved neutral observer" from far away, blessed by a sufficient degree of ignorance, can see things the way they really are.

Secondly, its not about what one knows, it's about people's prior biases and emotional responses. Your earlier response - "I can see your responses from many other cultures as well. You want to be unique, you are not"- is quite typical. You have an opinion but your knowledge of the subject of discussion is minimal, so you're trying to sidestep it by declaring knowledge unnecessary or of little importance. Every conflict is like the other, finer details don't matter all that much so you already know all you need to know.

When I said it, it was a matter of belief in my fellow humans. On further research I have found that both sides -from a people perspective, not governmental- think that a 2 state answer as proposed decades ago is still the "best option on the table".

Oh, you have so much more research to do.

(Here is a poll several years earlier, just to show that the results are consistent over years and not due to the recent war).

Like I said, the Palestinians have never had a peace camp. Previous polls have sometimes indicated a thin Palestinian majority in favor of the two state solution, but only when it was presented as a near-term intermediate goal, a precursor to Israel's eventual destruction, not as a permanent solution.

[Gatefan1976]

Then don't think funnel web spiders, think bush fire.

LOL
Change the paramaters.

You make it the main focus of everything when it threatens to burn your town to the ground; you do prevention work during quiet times to keep it from threatening your town in the first place. That's the Israeli mindset. We don't obsess over danger all the time; in fact, year after year we are ranked as one of the happiest nations of the planet despite being neither the richest nor the safest. When our enemies launch a violent campaign, we mobilize and put the fire out, then go back to normal life.

LOL
you are mistaken, yet again. There a groups who get their knickers in a bunch about back burning
Fire is not our enemy, stupid laws are.

But just imagine, for a moment, that the firemen putting out that bush fire are told to wield their water cannons sparingly so as to not accidentally hurt the trees that aren't on fire yet, and are put on trial for every blade of grass they trample while saving the town.

LOL!!!!!!!!
This is getting worse.

I did.

No, you didn't. Your feelings that you had don't matter.

It's an inevitable outcome. A nation that protests its people will have a lower number of civilian casualties during war than a nation who does not.

Of course, have I blamed you for not caring about your people??

That's a strawman.

No, it's not, it's just easier for you to think of it that way as shown next:

I don't feel that the Palestinian civilians are disposable or something. I simply don't believe that my army and my government should prioritize Palestinian lives over Israeli ones.

There we go.

They are MY army and MY government. They are there to protect ME. If they are willing to risk my life to minimize danger to the civilian population of an enemy, that's dereliction of duty.

And there is the superiority.

They are not YOUR army, nor YOUR government.

We are better than the terrorist on so many levels that it doesn't even require proof.

You mean it's Unspoken?
LOL!!!

But you know what? If you think that if Israel isn't flawless it's no better than Hamas, then that's not the kind of criticism that deserves any respect. If you don't give credit to the enormous efforts and risks that the Israelis took in order to minimize harm to Palestinian civilians (for whom they are not, like I said, in any way responsible), then your pretense of friendly criticism is just a form of legitimizing the same outlandish accusations that the haters use.

I never said I give no credit to the Israeli forces, you added that line of dross in all by yourself. I criticise them for using terrorist tactics.

And yes, there are some people out there whose criticism is legitimate. They do not equate Israel with the terrorists whenever an errant shell kills a child in Gaza, they just think that Israel "could do better than this". But as I once told my boss at work, "you can do better" is not constructive criticism. No one is perfect, so one can always walk into the office and say "guys, you're good at what you do, but you can do better". It's how the more stupid bosses at any workplace assert their authority when they have nothing of value to contribute to the project. If you want to be taken seriously, you must first know HOW to do better.

So, you admit you are not "da bestest in da world"???
Why not admit your mistakes then?
If you hit a UN hospital, say you messed up. If you hit only civillians, SAY YOU MESSED UP!!!
How hard is it to apologise??
Instead, we get some concoction of "we meant to do it, but if you question it, you hate us"

So screw world opinion.

LOL!!!!!!
OK then.

Ah but it doesn't work this way.

I've wasted entirely too many years in such discussions trying to educate, and I've arrived to the conclusion that you cannot educate someone who doesn't want to learn. For one, discussions of politics - much like religion and unlike most other subjects- is one of those things in which people don't feel that any kind of knowledge base or qualifications are necessary. People don't like being told that they're wrong and they don't know; they get outraged and they think that first-hand knowledge is actually a bad thing. If you're involved, you're biased and your view is slanted; only the "uninvolved neutral observer" from far away can see things the way they really are.

Have you ever considered that some of them may have a point?

Secondly, its not about what one knows, it's about people's prior biases and emotional responses. Your earlier response - "I can see your responses from many other cultures as well. You want to be unique, you are not"- is quite typical. You have an opinion but your knowledge of the subject of discussion is minimal, so you're trying to sidestep it by declaring knowledge unnecessary. Every conflict is like the other, finer details don't matter all that much so you already know all you need to know.

Umm, go talk to Aretood2 about having some other country fiddle in your nations politics these days. I am not sidestepping anything, so get over that kind of bull. As for conflicts, well, YES, most of them come under few repeated themes.
Again, you think you are special, you are not. Any Native culture could claim the same.

Oh, you have so much more research to do.

Here is a poll several years earlier, just to show that the results are consistent over years and not due to the recent war).

You mean you got them after the last war??
Just, just don't ok?

Like I said, the Palestinians have never had a peace camp. Previous polls have sometimes indicated a thin Palestinian majority in favor of the two state solution, but only when it was presented as a near-term intermediate goal, a precursor to Israel's eventual destruction, not as a permanent solution.

I don't doubt that some Palestinians would like to see Israel destroyed, I also don't doubt that that some Israelis would like to see Palestine destroyed.
MUST I take those two sides only??
Can I not care for both innocents? the Israelis and the Palistinians?

[Womble]

Of course, have I blamed you for not caring about your people??

No no, you blames me for not caring about our enemies' people more than we care for our people.

And there is the superiority.

But of course. I care about my mom more than I do about random women, because my mom is my mom. I care about my people more than about other people. It's unnatural to think otherwise.

They are not YOUR army, nor YOUR government.

If the Israeli government is not my government and the Israeli army is not my army, then you and I really do live in different universes.

I never said I give no credit to the Israeli forces, you added that line of dross in all by yourself. I criticise them for using terrorist tactics.

How is one different from the other?

So, you admit you are not "da bestest in da world"???

We are. One can be the best and not be perfect.

Why not admit your mistakes then?
If you hit a UN hospital, say you messed up. If you hit only civillians, SAY YOU MESSED UP!!!
How hard is it to apologise??

That's been the Israeli policy for the last two decades - first apologize, then investigate whether or not it was actually our fault. Trouble is, when the "critics" are only out to catch the Jews doing bad stuff, apology is taken as proof of guilt and not as proof that we honestly regret what happened. And nobody cares when months later it is confirmed that it wasn't our fault after all.

Have you ever considered that some of them may have a point?

No. Ignorance has never made anyone right, and you can't get all the facts wrong but by way of some magic get the conclusions right.

Umm, go talk to Aretood2 about having some other country fiddle in your nations politics these days. I am not sidestepping anything, so get over that kind of bull. As for conflicts, well, YES, most of them come under few repeated themes.
Again, you think you are special, you are not. Any Native culture could claim the same.

Yes you are. It's all the same to you because you don't want to actually learn. Every conflict works differently, which is why I for one would not pass judgement on who is or isn't right in Northern Ireland or Kashmir the way I would when it comes to places I know more about like Ukraine.

You mean you got them after the last war??
Just, just don't ok?

No, I mean it's always been their opinion. Since the 1800-s and before.

I don't doubt that some Palestinians would like to see Israel destroyed, I also don't doubt that that some Israelis would like to see Palestine destroyed.
MUST I take those two sides only??
Can I not care for both innocents? the Israelis and the Palistinians?

Sure you can. But if you want to actually understand something, wishful thinking gets you nowhere. If the majority of Palestinians want Israel destroyed and by and large do not oppose killing Jewish ciivlians, it has to be acknowledged, not ignored.

[Gatefan1976]

No no, you blames me for not caring about our enemies' people more than we care for our people.

No, I have not.

But of course. I care about my mom more than I do about random women, because my mom is my mom. I care about my people more than about other people. It's unnatural to think otherwise.

I care about my wife and my children more to be honest.
That does not mean I don't care about my mum however.

If the Israeli government is not my government and the Israeli army is not my army, then you and I really do live in different universes.

You missed my point. I was speaking of OWNERSHIP. The current Australian government certainly is not MY GOVENMENT, yet it is mine for good or ill. Same goes for our military.
Point being, it does not serve "my ends" or "my perceptions", it serves (supposedly) the will of Australia, not what I may happen to like.

How is one different from the other?

Oh man..........

That's been the Israeli policy for the last two decades - first apologize, then investigate whether or not it was actually our fault. Trouble is, when the "critics" are only out to catch the Jews doing bad stuff, apology is taken as proof of guilt and not as proof that we honestly regret what happened. And nobody cares when months later it is confirmed that it wasn't our fault after all.

Bull****.
No argument, no discussion, no counterpoint
bull****.

Just so you know, I would happily call bull**** on the same kind of claim from any other nation directly involved.

No. Ignorance has never made anyone right, and you can't get all the facts wrong but by way of some magic get the conclusions right.

You are joking right??
By what method did Israel be created in it's modern borders?
Why were those boarders considered "important"

Dude, you are up there with the Vatican for "magical reasons why my country should exist"
Where is the unique Mormon state?
They have just as many followers as Judaism across the globe.
Why shouldn't Islam have their own Nation state as well?, they have tens of millions of followers as well, but we fight against their "extremism" because we just don't want to live under Sharia Law, and we disagree with how they spread their message sometimes.
Why is Israel "special"???

No, I mean it's always been their opinion. Since the 1800-s and before.

WHOSE opinion??

Sure you can. But if you want to actually understand something, wishful thinking gets you nowhere. If the majority of Palestinians want Israel destroyed and by and large do not oppose killing Jewish ciivlians, it has to be acknowledged, not ignored.

Yet, when that Idea is reversed, it is seen as unfair.
You have said yourself on many occasions that Israeli life is more important than Palestinian, why be surprised when they feel the same way?
If you want open communication, you have to offer it first, even if it hurts you.

[Womble]

I care about my wife and my children more to be honest.
That does not mean I don't care about my mum however.

Of course, your mom is still family.

But how about someone who isn't family. Your mom vs. a random Afghan civilian- who would you rather see get hurt if someone has to get hurt?

You missed my point. I was speaking of OWNERSHIP. The current Australian government certainly is not MY GOVENMENT, yet it is mine for good or ill. Same goes for our military.
Point being, it does not serve "my ends" or "my perceptions", it serves (supposedly) the will of Australia, not what I may happen to like.

I believe you've missed MY point, and your rant is neither here nor there. The first and most basic duty of any government to its people is protecting these people. It's raison d'etre of there being a government in the first place. Specific policies can be disagreed with, but a government that allows its people to be harmed in order to protect some other people commits the ultimate dereliction of duty.

Bull****.
No argument, no discussion, no counterpoint
bull****.

Just so you know, I would happily call bull**** on the same kind of claim from any other nation directly involved.

Try calling it on your own response here Preferably after you Google "Israel expresses regret over civilian deaths". It's all there, the Internet keeps things forever. Here, I'll get you started.

You are joking right??
By what method did Israel be created in it's modern borders?

Oh, it started by peaceful building and farming. Then the Arabs decided to fight and kind of lost.

Why were those boarders considered "important"

Because they were more secure than the gerrymandered mess the UN approved in 1947 partition.

Dude, you are up there with the Vatican for "magical reasons why my country should exist"
Where is the unique Mormon state?
They have just as many followers as Judaism across the globe.
Why shouldn't Islam have their own Nation state as well?, they have tens of millions of followers as well, but we fight against their "extremism" because we just don't want to live under Sharia Law, and we disagree with how they spread their message sometimes.
Why is Israel "special"???

Aaaand here we can see those prior prejudices I was talking about, in full display. I say that one can't be wrong on all facts yet magically right on conclusions. You jump on the trigger word "magically" and go off on your favorite anti-religious tangent, in the process showcasing more ignorance.

Alright then, point by point.

The unique Mormon state does not exist because Mormons are not and have never been a nation, unlike the Jews. They gave it an honest try in the Utah territory, but the thing about nationhood is that it can't be synthetic. It has to be founded on centuries of shared identity and historical experience.

Islam is a somewhat better parallel as it lays claims to being the founding identity of an ummah (nation) - AND it had its own state in the past, more than once and in more than one place, and it functions as a factor of national definition in a multitude of existing states, so you're shooting yours argument in the foot. The problem with Islamic states, of course, is that wherever it tries to be a substitute for history-based national identity, it collapses into tribal infighting. The reason ISIS so easily crushed the Iraqi army but was stopped in its tracks by the Kurds is precisely that- Iraq is a hodgepodge of tribes with which a unifying national identity has never taken hold, whereas the Kurds are a nation of thousands of years which, when threatened, mobilizes. Unity is power. (It's also why the Arabs have never been able to defeat Israel and never will).

The reason why Israel should exist has nothing to do with religion, and Israel was founded by people who wouldn't be caught dead wearing a kippa. The reason is simple: like all nations, we have an inalienable right to self-determination in our land. To prove that this land is ours, one doesn't need a Bible; it's enough to have a sturdy shovel and dig at any random place in this land; proofs of Jewish history will inevitably be unearthed (and they regularly are). You can disbelieve in the Bible's religious elements, but the Jewish nation's origin and existence here is beyond questioning.

The full translated text of Zionism's founding document, Theodor Herzl's "The Jewish State" is freely available online if, as you claim, you're looking to learn.

While we are at it, note that your rant has just revealed something very important about the undercurrent of your entire line of argument. This argument is, from your side, not in fact about any particular Israeli action of today or of yesteryear. It's about Israel's existence. Most discussions of Israel lead to this kind of moment given enough time, which is why I don't put my stock into the "critics"; claims of being motivated by concern for the Gaza civilians or any other motivation of the present day. It all usually runs deeper.

WHOSE opinion??

The Arabs'.

Yet, when that Idea is reversed, it is seen as unfair.
You have said yourself on many occasions that Israeli life is more important than Palestinian, why be surprised when they feel the same way?
If you want open communication, you have to offer it first, even if it hurts you.

Reversed? How so? What was ever there to reverse? Can you point me to a time during which the Palestinians were any kind of squeamish about killing Jewish civilians, before or after 1967, or 1949, or any other year?

Because I can give you examples of Arab massacres of Jews in the Land of Israel for any decade or century you can name, all the way back to the Arab conquest of the place.

Up until 1920, the Jews of the Land of Israel did not have an armed force. They created first self-defense units (the Haganah, which later evolved into the IDF) in response to the Arab massacres of Jewish civilians throughout the 1920-s.

And why is it that the Palestinians are never expected to do something first, I wonder?

[Coco Pops]

Islam converts are nutty........

What's this now a grandmother beheaded in London?

[Falcon Horus]

What's this now a grandmother beheaded in London?

Which wasn't an act of terrorism, but a murder.

And it wasn't a muslim either.

[pookey]

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crime...d-9714057.html

[Falcon Horus]

Believed to be... You behead someone these days, and you must automatically be muslim.

Jihadist making beheading hot again. It hasn't been hot since late 19th, early 20th century.

[pookey]

i was peed off that he hacked a cat up

[Falcon Horus]

i was peed off that he hacked a cat up

What?!? I call for his head!

[SoulReaver]

guess I'll help myself to some offtopic :|

The first and most basic duty of any government to its people is protecting these people. It's raison d'etre of there being a government in the first place.

this would imply some higher authority

besides 'protection' is vast. from whom? from what?
would that also include social protection?

Specific policies can be disagreed with, but a government that allows its people to be harmed in order to protect some other pople commits the ultimate dereliction of duty.

what of a government that allows its people to be harmed in order to protect itself?