The Political Discussion Thread

[Gatefan1976]

Most of the time, it's disturbingly true. Especially when one examines the cases in which oppression of any kind bothers said critics and in which it doesn't bother them at all or gets endorsed by them.

You get a B for an attempt at irony, though. A consolation prize.

Are you Lehi?

[Womble]

Actually, you did.

Shouldn't be a problem quoting me, then.

I have no "crocodile tears" for Hamas, they are a hate organization. I reserve my tears for the innocent victims on both sides, sorry if you feel I should reserve them for you.

The more I hear that trite cliche, the less I believe the speaker.

Here we go..........
It's ALWAYS someone else, or their views because they do not align. If *I* stood shoulder to shoulder with you, you would call me a hero, but if I disagree at any point, I hate Israel, or I am an Anti-Jew, or Anti- Zionist.
Neat package you have going on.

You take criticism of Goldstone report awfully personally, it seems. What gives?

No, it is not I that has no point or it's invalid, it is your rationalization that is invalid. You would not have the "Iron Curtain" or the advanced weapons, or ANYTHING if half or more your GDP was spent on weaponry.

Nonsense. Israel didn't always have that GDP, but we always built bomb shelters for our people. Even back in the 50-s when we were a dirt poor agricultural Third world state.

It's nice you seem to ignore now the "rest of the world" who HELPED you get to that point and tell them to grab a 10 ft poll and think you are responsible somehow, but, go on, you can believe it if you want.

Helped us? We didn't get a whole lot of help from anybody getting where we are- at least not from any particular state or government- but there was a whole lot of trying to shoot us in the foot. Any aid we have received was always a two-way deal - including the US funding for Iron Dome. Obama REALLY didn't want to help out, but they couldn't afford to be left out, the technology is too valuable. If the US didn't help us with the funds, Singapore was about to buy into it.

Heil Israel I guess............

And that's when you cross into hate speak.

Why is any Israeli life more valuable than any other?
Who are YOU to determine that?
Are you GOD?

I am an Israeli. The lives of every single one of my people are more valuable than all Gazan lives put together for the same reason why your mother's life is more valuable than that of any other woman out there. Simple as that.

If you ask me to value all lives equally, I will refer you to the 10ft pole. Nobody, including everybody, values everyone equally unless they don't care about anybody.

If I question, I am the ENEMY, If I disobey, I am the ENEMY. You know who thinks like that, Islamic extremists who cower behind others under the guise of Sharia law.

I am not your Enemy.

It's not because you question. It's because of what and how you question.

I have no PC bull, I am merely an observer, and my observations lead me to the conclusion that Israel cares not a hoot about who it kills, therefore merely increasing the local hate and aiding in the radicalization of others.

If that were the case, we would long have bulldozed Gaza off the face of the earth and I would not go to sleep with the air raid siren howling. But we're not that kind of people. Never were. Cross-eyed observers notwithstanding.

[SoulReaver]

Yes it does, but Palestine *is* a country now, as is Qatar, or Iran. HOWEVER, there is nothing to stop a country from targeting specific portions of the population to dedicate their war machine against. It's odd to think of, but a official "war" might actually be better for the people in the area. Hamas will not be stopped by "police actions" as those police actions will inevitably have civilian costs that can be propaganda leveraged to fuel an organization such as Hamas, much like any other "gang like" organization.

I would rather see Israel absorb the entire area into it's borders, and deal with the extremists internally after that.

technically that'd be police actions though wouldn't it

[Falcon Horus]

Before I reply, my sister has a friend who's currently residing in Jerusalem and has first-hand experience as a non-Israeli how the Israeli deal with Gaza. How it is portrayed in the news. And she says there's a day and night difference what's on the Israeli news sites, and the foreign news sites.

This kind of comment always makes me want to ask how many Israelis you would have liked to see dead in order to make things more proportionate.

How about 6 million? Or have most of you forgotten what happened before you were so very unceremoniously dumped into Palestine's backyard?

The Palestinians do not have bomb shelters because they don't give a damn how many of their people die.

And who's telling you that they don't care? Why on Earth or anywhere else wouldn't they care

OF COURSE casualty count will be lopsided. Always. It's expected, it's normal and it's right. There is no conceivable reason why the Israelis should care more for Palestinian lives than for the lives of their own people.

Hitler considered himself superior, and his Arian race. He cared not for Jews and had them exterminated.

If the Israelis should care, perhaps there would be no need for bomb shelters on either side. But perhaps that's too much to ask.

For one, whose count is being relied upon here? Hamas heath ministry? They list anyone out of uniform as civilian, and most of their gunmen don't wear uniforms. If you see a disproportionate number of men of fighting age among those "civilians", you can be sure they're lying.

If not the health ministry, then please point is in another direction that isn't lying?

There are plenty of circumstances that will justify killing 9 people to get one. Especially if we are talking about use of human shields.

There is NEVER a circumstance in which the lives of 9 people are inferior to that of 1. Never.

You know what - if you are convinced there is, why not give me an example, cause I am curious now.

Then here's a question for you: how much of Gaza's GDP (including "humanitarian aid" and money funneled by Iran and Qatar that's not in their official GDP) has been spent on protecting civilian population?

Maybe they want to build a country, a society instead of having to build bomb shelters because their neighbors are a warmongering nation with a thirst for more land, and superiority complex to boot.

In fact, the more lopsided this count, the more proud I am of my people. Morality is not judged by how successful one is at achieving immoral results.

You should be ashamed of yourself. Absolutely ashamed.

I wonder how you would feel on the other side of the wall?

Israel has every right to defend itself, but is condemned for any practical way of doing so.

I wonder why that is...

apparently socialist France banned pro-palestinian demonstrations. not a mass protest (if anything the french seem to approve but mostly for security reasons)

Both Jewish and Muslim organizations asked for a peaceful manifestation in Brussels today, after the issues in Paris. However, small riots did take place. Death to all jews, was a slogan much heard apparantly. For the most part it was peaceful, but there's always a few hot heads that have to make a point.

And that's when you cross into hate speak.

Kinda like what one of your own recently did ... and I quote:

Ayelet Shaked of the ultra-nationalist Jewish Home party called for the slaughter of Palestinian mothers who give birth to "little snakes."

"They have to die and their houses should be demolished so that they cannot bear any more terrorists," Shaked said, adding, "They are all our enemies and their blood should be on our hands. This also applies to the mothers of the dead terrorists.”

I am an Israeli. The lives of every single one of my people are more valuable than all Gazan lives put together for the same reason why your mother's life is more valuable than that of any other woman out there. Simple as that.

That's not as simple as that. My mother's life is equally as important as any other woman. If put before the choice who the executioner would kill, I'd pick me.

Why do you consider yourself more valuable than all Palestinians? What do you offer the world you live in, that is so important that you are more valuable?

If you ask me to value all lives equally, I will refer you to the 10ft pole. Nobody, including everybody, values everyone equally unless they don't care about anybody.

Now there's a pile of horsedung the size of a dinosaur.

If you don't care about anybody, you still care about yourself.

If that were the case, we would long have bulldozed Gaza off the face of the earth and I would not go to sleep with the air raid siren howling. But we're not that kind of people. Never were. Cross-eyed observers notwithstanding.

I think you are, you just haven't admitted it yet.

[SoulReaver]

there's a day and night difference what's on the Israeli news sites, and the foreign news sites.

bleh, I don't care about day or night
how about some impartiality - I want dusk

If you don't care about anybody, you still care about yourself.

do you care about everybody? -_-

[Falcon Horus]

do you care about everybody? -_-

I care about everybody but myself to the point where everybody will tell me to care more about myself than about everybody.

[SoulReaver]

I care about everybody but myself to the point where everybody will tell me to care more about myself than about everybody.

I challenge everybody anybody to decipher this


so, do you care about me then?

[Falcon Horus]

so, do you care about me then?

I do.

[SoulReaver]

I do.

?

[Falcon Horus]

Oh dear...

[SoulReaver]

Oh dear...

yon fair damsel is now caught in an inextricable conundrum

(she should've seen it coming)

[mad_gater]

yay for ignoring things previously established, like the fact that it was already said that the IDF does everything in its power to warn innocents away from a suspected enemy stronghold

is it Israel's fault that any innocents choose instead to listen to Hamas telling them to stay put? why that would defeat their purpose of using them as human shields

I think Alexis de tocqueville had it right when he basically said that Islam and its barbaric tenets have no place in the civilized world ("....There is no religion deadlier to men than that of Muhammed....")

[SoulReaver]

is it Israel's fault that any innocents choose instead to listen to Hamas telling them to stay put?

you're assuming the Hamas chaps are nice enough to let their people go if they so choose

I think Alexis de tocqueville had it right when he basically said that Islam and its barbaric tenets have no place in the civilized world ("....There is no religion deadlier to men than that of Muhammed....")

sure - but if anything christianity could come a close second (depending on the whole death penalty issue)

incidentally:

I ALSO don't want Judeo-Christian law anywhere near me EITHER

I was always puzzled by that expression - why conflate the 2 religions? makes zero sense for in christianity, all jews go to hell

[mad_gater]

you're assuming the Hamas chaps are nice enough to let their people go if they so choose

sure - but if anything christianity could come a close second (depending on the whole death penalty issue)

incidentally:
I was always puzzled by that expression - why conflate the 2 religions? makes zero sense for in christianity, all jews go to hell

show me where barbarism is actually an official part of the tenets of Christian faith....yes there have been rogue Christians who've done bad and barbaric things (Westboro being a case in point) but that doesn't change the fact that barbarism is found nowhere in Christian teaching....however barbarism factors rather heavily into the official tenets of Islam....all you have to do is take a look at its fruit, namely the barbaric system of laws known as Shariah Law....and as they say about fruit....it doesn't fall far from the tree

[Gatefan1976]

Shouldn't be a problem quoting me, then.

I believe Falcon Horus took up that Challenge, so I shall not repeat it.

The more I hear that trite cliche, the less I believe the speaker.

So, I am a liar then?
Let's look at the other news item that Coco linked. More Australians died in that one act than Israel had lost in the current conflict (at the time of the 2 events), let alone the Dutch who lost almost 6 times that number. I am not screaming for the blood of those responsible, whomever it turns out to be, but I do want to know who is responsible, and I do want them dealt with by either military tribunal or Civilian court depending on what they discover. More importantly, I feel intense sadness for those affected directly or indirectly by this incident, because no matter where they come from, those 297 people were INNOCENT Human beings, and I care not where they come from, or their creed.

You take criticism of Goldstone report awfully personally, it seems. What gives?

Not at all, I find it rather wasteful to have an "independent investigation" hand down it's findings, then allow the people involved directly to expect that their internal findings would be held as "gospel", and that would apply to any Palestinian "internal review" either. Why bother with the independent inquiry in the first place?

Nonsense. Israel didn't always have that GDP, but we always built bomb shelters for our people. Even back in the 50-s when we were a dirt poor agricultural Third world state.

Please have a look at this:
http://eh.net/encyclopedia/a-brief-e...modern-israel/

Here is something relevant to what you just said:

From 1950 until 1965, Israel achieved a high rate of growth: Real GNP (gross national product) grew by an average annual rate of over 11 percent, and per capita GNP by greater than 6 percent. What made this possible? Israel was fortunate in receiving large sums of capital inflows: U.S. aid in the forms of unilateral transfers and loans, German reparations and restitutions to individuals, sale of State of Israel Bonds abroad, and unilateral transfers to public institutions, mainly the Jewish Agency, which retained responsibility for immigration absorption and agricultural settlement. Thus, Israel had resources available for domestic use – for public and private consumption and investment – about 25 percent more than its own GNP. This made possible a massive investment program, mainly financed through a special government budget. Both the enormity of needs and the socialist philosophy of the main political party in the government coalitions led to extreme government intervention in the economy.

Helped us? We didn't get a whole lot of help from anybody getting where we are- at least not from any particular state or government- but there was a whole lot of trying to shoot us in the foot.

Again, please check out that site.

Any aid we have received was always a two-way deal - including the US funding for Iron Dome. Obama REALLY didn't want to help out, but they couldn't afford to be left out, the technology is too valuable. If the US didn't help us with the funds, Singapore was about to buy into it.

Oh yes, I agree it has always been a two way street. In fact, I believe Israel is being used by the west, and have said as much further up the thread. I have also said it is not fair for Israel to be used in such a way.

And that's when you cross into hate speak.

I'm sorry??
Poor taste perhaps, but hardly hate speech, and not exactly to the level of being told to shove a 10ft pole where the sun don't shine. Then again, perhaps I just realise you are trying to make a point.

I am an Israeli. The lives of every single one of my people are more valuable than all Gazan lives put together for the same reason why your mother's life is more valuable than that of any other woman out there. Simple as that.

That's Nationalism, and pretty extreme nationalism. How can I respond to that in a way that will not be seen as either Anti-Israeli, Anti-Zionist, or Hate Speech?

If you ask me to value all lives equally, I will refer you to the 10ft pole. Nobody, including everybody, values everyone equally unless they don't care about anybody.

When it comes to innocent human beings, I think we can treat them the same no matter where they come from. Conflating that notion with Immediate family is some pretty hard core shoe horning if you ask me.

It's not because you question. It's because of what and how you question.

So tell me the "rules" then. While you are at it, tell me why some rules apply to some, and not to others.

If that were the case, we would long have bulldozed Gaza off the face of the earth and I would not go to sleep with the air raid siren howling. But we're not that kind of people. Never were. Cross-eyed observers notwithstanding.

Unless you had Divine Mandate do you mean?