The Political Discussion Thread

[mad_gater]

Why is it automatically assumed that sex education isn't capable of talking about love and choosing the right time? Maybe it's the idea of choice that seems to get you so angry, that some would choose something you wouldn't? And why is it somehow linked to religion? I'm not a Christian, so why should I be held to its rules?

well it certainly seems that something must be lacking in our sex education given all the problems our society has been having with regard to marital fidelity...and as far as love perhaps that is what is lacking in people...a model of perfect love to show us what love truly is....and the teachings of Christianity do have real world applications that strive to make us into better people

and I'm not angry.....just lovingly exercising one of the corporal works of mercy......called instructing the ignorant

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that we might not die but have eternal life"....that is the perfect model of love that we as human beings are enjoined to emulate to the best possible degree of which we are capable

[Ukko]

"Hush thee, Gefjon,.........I have in mind
..............who lured thee to lust:
the fair-haired swain.........sold thee the necklace,
.............ere thou threwest about him thy thighs"

Woo yeah! Random religious quotes *Runs*

[jmoz]

Look at that, Ukko trying to seduce people with erotic poetry.

[Ukko]

Look at that, Ukko trying to seduce people with erotic poetry.

Ukko doesnt try, Ukko does

Erotic poetry? Eddic poetry

We seem to have gone off a topic that im not sure was on topic in the first place

[jmoz]

lol this place is off-topic anyways.

[VampyreWraith]

Here's an article that is kinda on topic. http://www.politicsdaily.com/2011/02...pen-in-tucson/

[Daedalus-304]

Why is it automatically assumed that sex education isn't capable of talking about love and choosing the right time? Maybe it's the idea of choice that seems to get you so angry, that some would choose something you wouldn't? And why is it somehow linked to religion? I'm not a Christian, so why should I be held to its rules?

Why is is link to religion is because there are very specific commandments regarding this subject. According to Christianity any sex outside marriage is considered sin. And the problem is with the many parents they teach this to their kids, and they view Sex Education as this: the schools as going behind their back and teaching their kids "it's ok to violate commandments of your religion as long you use birth control."

Another example would be if a parent's religion said "No Alcohol" so they taught their kids to never drink. Then the schools have a class that teaches kids how to drink but in moderation. Even if it is in moderation, the parents still view this as the schools teaching their kids to violate their religion.

[jmoz]

There's a separation of church and state. Besides, there's many levels of hypocrisy among religious people and religions. If we go by commandments, there's one 'thou shalt not kill', explain the Crusades using that commandment. Those things are outdated. The parents could home school if they're really strict about such teachings.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

well it certainly seems that something must be lacking in our sex education given all the problems our society has been having with regard to marital fidelity...and as far as love perhaps that is what is lacking in people...a model of perfect love to show us what love truly is....and the teachings of Christianity do have real world applications that strive to make us into better people

and I'm not angry.....just lovingly exercising one of the corporal works of mercy......called instructing the ignorant

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that we might not die but have eternal life"....that is the perfect model of love that we as human beings are enjoined to emulate to the best possible degree of which we are capable

Because Christians never are adulterous? Follow your own lessons first before you go inflicting them on non-Christians

Why is is link to religion is because there are very specific commandments regarding this subject. According to Christianity any sex outside marriage is considered sin. And the problem is with the many parents they teach this to their kids, and they view Sex Education as this: the schools as going behind their back and teaching their kids "it's ok to violate commandments of your religion as long you use birth control."

Another example would be if a parent's religion said "No Alcohol" so they taught their kids to never drink. Then the schools have a class that teaches kids how to drink but in moderation. Even if it is in moderation, the parents still view this as the schools teaching their kids to violate their religion.

There are very specific Christian commandments, that Christians can't seem to follow. These Christian commandments don't apply to me - or to a secular country for that matter. Teaching shame of healthy human behaviour violates MY religion

[squirrely1]

Spoiler:

I think we're getting to the heart of that particular belief: CONTROL. Not self-control or personal choice but flat out control. Not signing up for that



We don't live in a perfect world, which is why we also teach kids about strangers, bad touches, not to run out into the street and yeah, that sex comes with consequences too - here's what you can do about it. Like all the other things we teach kids, we don't teach them to stay inside so they never run into strangers, we don't teach them that no one is ever allowed to touch them, we don't teach them that they can never cross the street. Why not? Because we teach them the danger, tell them how to deal with it, and let the kids take care of themselves with the knowledge we give them. Why should sex be any different?

As for it being an elective course - okay, let's play with that. The parent says no. The child says yes. Who's voice matters? The one that wants to keep a child ignorant or the child - the one that has a right to know? At what point does a child's rights supersede a parent's? Currently, education isn't one size fits all, in that there are so many different kinds of schools, including home schooling, that it can't be claimed. But, with that kind of varied education, how can you be sure that children are getting the education they are entitled to? Testing them to see if they at least have a baseline. Or else you could end up with a situation where some folks decide that maybe teaching girls math and science and anything else they need isn't necessary (don't say that's never happened) or deciding that maybe little Black kids don't need to learn this that or the next thing.

How do they realize that their behaviour comes with consequences if they are never taught? And is that really how you want your kids to learn? That they have to get pregnant, get an STI, or possibly even die? Back to the other lessons we teach kids - do we let kids learn about traffic the hard way? By not telling them about cars and then sending them out into the street and when they get hit by a car - well, that's the consequence they suffer for something we never told them about in the first place? We don't do that because it would be insanely cruel. We wouldn't be doing our jobs as parents or as a society to allow that to continue. It's backwards thinking. Punishing children, and that's what you seem to be advocating, for something we've never taught them is cruel. Beyond cruel.

Now if those kids get the proper education about sex (like any other danger) and CHOOSE, knowing what they know, to contract an STI or engage in risky behaviour - that they know about - then yeah, that's serious business. But I'm fairly certain, given the statistics that have come up numerous times in this thread alone, that kids that get a decent sex education are LESS likely to suffer - and that's what it is, suffering - things like teen pregnancy, STI's and possibly AIDS/HIV. But we teach them first. The child has a right to know that. We don't have a right to keep them from learning.

OMG *gouges out eyes and pulls out all hair* I am really getting a headache over this thread cuz I just don't see many of us here coming to any common ground. So I'll respond to this one last time then I'm out of this sex ed discussion.

As for letting the kids get hurt or harmed as you cited in your "playing in the street" scenario...that is utterly ridiculous to even compare the two activities because you are talking about what you teach a young child versus what you teach a young adolescent pre adult and they can be very different. Which the adolescent can exhibit a very defiant type of behavior and as a parent we do have the final say of the welfare of our children until they are of legal age.

Because with children they do not have the skills or experience to know what is in their best interest. We could be telling them that it is bad to smoke, drink, do drugs or have sex and they would do it anyway...because sometimes they just want to rebel and do the opposite of what authority tells them. I am not saying that all kids do this, however this is the type of behavior we are dealing with sometimes along with intense peer pressure and that is not always easy to control.

Now unless a parent is deemed "unfit" by social services then the decision should absolutely be up to the parent. I would hope it would be a collaborative one between the child and parent but as I sited above....children at this age may not be the best advocate for what is "best for them" They may only want to take the sex ed course cuz their best friend is taking it....it is viewed as cool to do and or maybe they want to get a hold of the free condoms

Finally, It is not so much the parents "preventing or restricting" what the kids learn....it is keeping it controlled or what they feel is appropriate for their child that may fit into their specific spiritual beliefs. But only until the child is of legal age and can take responsibility for their own actions as an adult. When you are responsible for the care and control of your underaged minor child...and ....if and when that child acts out and either harms another person...by way of reckless behavior either by infecting them with an STD or by getting them pregnant...ultimately it comes down on you as the parent to face the consequences with that child. You as the parent are just as much in the hot water with the child....so yeah I think as long as the child is under legal age and living on your dime...you have ultimate say on how they are educated period...including sex education.

Once they are an adult and go off to college they can pursue sex education there if they feel they did not get adequate education from home or through their school.

Spoiler:

Why is is link to religion is because there are very specific commandments regarding this subject. According to Christianity any sex outside marriage is considered sin. And the problem is with the many parents they teach this to their kids, and they view Sex Education as this: the schools as going behind their back and teaching their kids "it's ok to violate commandments of your religion as long you use birth control."

Another example would be if a parent's religion said "No Alcohol" so they taught their kids to never drink. Then the schools have a class that teaches kids how to drink but in moderation. Even if it is in moderation, the parents still view this as the schools teaching their kids to violate their religion.

Amen...thank you for speaking out here about this cuz there seems to be a bit of lopsided view on this

[Daedalus-304]

There's a separation of church and state. Besides, there's many levels of hypocrisy among religious people and religions. If we go by commandments, there's one 'thou shalt not kill', explain the Crusades using that commandment.

The commandment is actually better translated "thou shall not murder" There is a difference between Murder and Killing. If someone tries to break in your house and tries to kill your family and you shoot them, you have not committed murder because you have acted in self defense. Also there is no commandment prohibiting war, but there is a long history of debate with this, called Just War Theory:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_War_Theory

Those things are outdated. The parents could home school if they're really strict about such teachings.

You say they are outdated, and others say they are perfectly valid. Parents send their kids to school so that they can learn skills such as math, science, reading, and writing, why should they have their beliefs compromised just to have a decent education.

There are very specific Christian commandments, that Christians can't seem to follow.

Just because some don't follow this commandment, doesn't invalidate the commandment or the many that follow it.

These Christian commandments don't apply to me - or to a secular country for that matter.

Then we must have different ideas of what a secular country means. Secular shouldn't mean anti-religion or an opposing view to religion, but religion-neutral. And I wasn't saying you had to follow these commandments, I was saying parents don't want schools to teach their own kids to violate them. There are several religious practices and commandments I don't follow, for instance Jews and Muslims can't eat pork in their religion, so I would be opposed to a mandated "Pork Cooking 101" class in schools.

Teaching shame of healthy human behaviour violates MY religion

Your idea of healthy is different from other's view of healthy and normal. Some people view laying out in the sun as healthy and normal, I don't because I don' want skin cancer like some of my relatives.

Also you mention sex like it is healthy, but isn't that the primary way things like AIDs and other diseases are spread? It reminds me of a great quote I heard once "STDs are nasty, that's why I'm a virgin"

[mad_gater]

Because Christians never are adulterous? Follow your own lessons first before you go inflicting them on non-Christians


There are very specific Christian commandments, that Christians can't seem to follow. These Christian commandments don't apply to me - or to a secular country for that matter. Teaching shame of healthy human behaviour violates MY religion

for the umpteenth time.....just because some Christians don't follow the teachings regarding marital fidelity does not invalidate the teaching....and yes....for EVERY gift there is an appropriate and inappropriate use for it.....this is common sense.....in the case of sex yes it is shameful IF USED INAPPROPRIATELY.....so we teach what constitutes appropriate use of our sexual gifts so that we can be free to use them the way they are meant to be used

[Naonak]

for the umpteenth time.....just because some Christians don't follow the teachings regarding marital fidelity does not invalidate the teaching....and yes....for EVERY gift there is an appropriate and inappropriate use for it.....this is common sense.....in the case of sex yes it is shameful IF USED INAPPROPRIATELY.....so we teach what constitutes appropriate use of our sexual gifts so that we can be free to use them the way they are meant to be used

I'd like to bring it back to Ukko's question from earlier: What are these appropriate times?
And who decides?

[s09119]

And the umpteenth time, I don't care that your holy book says that sex is a "gift" that must be respected until marriage.

[shipper hannah]

"Hush thee, Gefjon,.........I have in mind
..............who lured thee to lust:
the fair-haired swain.........sold thee the necklace,
.............ere thou threwest about him thy thighs"

Woo yeah! Random religious quotes *Runs*

I like.. unfortunately I've already greened you too much.