The Political Discussion Thread

[Womble]

But sometimes you can't quantify crazy, what you can do is try to stop the crazies from getting guns.

You cannot stop a sufficiently determined madman from getting a gun. My very own father was shot and wounded in a country where civilian ownership of guns was illegal. The shooter was a drunken lowlife without money or resources to buy a proper weapon at the black market; his gun was a tear gas pistol adapted by a semi-competent metalworker to fire buckshot.

I don't think people realize how frighteningly easy it is to manufacture a full-auto submachinegun in a home workshop with easily purchased materials and tools.

[aretood2]

I'm sorry if you felt that I've misrepresented you. I'll go ahead and change my post

I was merely pointing something out that could cause problems for you at other times. But thanks for editing the post. As for the subject that we were discussing, I think wording is an issue in your first post that I quoted much as it was the issue in you post about religious activities in schools. Your response was much more clear and made more sense.

[Gatefan1976]

You cannot stop a sufficiently determined madman from getting a gun. My very own father was shot and wounded in a country where civilian ownership of guns was illegal. The shooter was a drunken lowlife without money or resources to buy a proper weapon at the black market; his gun was a tear gas pistol adapted by a semi-competent metalworker to fire buckshot.

My sympathies Womble

I don't think people realize how frighteningly easy it is to manufacture a full-auto submachinegun in a home workshop with easily purchased materials and tools.

Not even that, there are far worse weapons that than can be easily produced.

[Goose]

I was merely pointing something out that could cause problems for you at other times. But thanks for editing the post. As for the subject that we were discussing, I think wording is an issue in your first post that I quoted much as it was the issue in you post about religious activities in schools. Your response was much more clear and made more sense.

Yeah, I should probably re-read everything I've typed before I post them. Going back, I realise that I don't always make myself very clear the first time around!

[Princess Awinita]

I suddenly have a very confusing note that has stuck me and wont leave, namely, Why did the gunman yesterday even go to the school if his primary target was already dead ? Police said in the news articles and on TV that the gunmans mother was his primary target, everyone else was just collatoral damage.

However later the news reported that the person he killed at his home WAS his primary target, his mother. Then he took her car to the school and shot the place up. so now I am wondering, why even go to the school if the primary target was already dead ?

At this moment, that is what confuses me the most. everything is moot to me now. no hard feelings to anyone in this thread btw. If I came off harsh or arrogant or horrid, it was not meant to be that way. At this moment I am just plain confused.

[Seastallion]

Not even that, there are far worse weapons that than can be easily produced.

This kind of goes to the crux of the argument on gun control. Guns or their availability do NOT cause crime, they are merely tools. An evil person with intent will FIND a way, gun or not. Yes, the evil will use guns to their own ends, but if you believe that good people outnumber evil people then they will serve for the good of society, rather than the ill. Guns are NOT the problem, the culture that creates such evil is the problem.

Because I think it is worth reiterating AGAIN... I repost what my school principal friend posted. This friend is a moderate fellow, but he tends to lean left politically, but I think he has it so correct here...

"I know everyone's attention is focused on Newtown right now and I am not taking away from the horror of what happened because I am deeply emotional about it; but do you realize how many innocent kids are killed every day in many of our cities and towns everyday without any significant outcry? Increased gun control is not the answer to many of our ills. THE SECOND AMENDMENT EXISTS FOR A REASON! Legal gun ownership is already regulated and is not the real issue. Lack of parenting, breakdown of families, culture that promotes violence to young people (i.e. movies, video games) and lack of mental health supports are more important issues to look at."

[Seastallion]

I suddenly have a very confusing note that has stuck me and wont leave, namely, Why did the gunman yesterday even go to the school if his primary target was already dead ? Police said in the news articles and on TV that the gunmans mother was his primary target, everyone else was just collatoral damage.

However later the news reported that the person he killed at his home WAS his primary target, his mother. Then he took her car to the school and shot the place up. so now I am wondering, why even go to the school if the primary target was already dead ?

At this moment, that is what confuses me the most. everything is moot to me now. no hard feelings to anyone in this thread btw. If I came off harsh or arrogant or horrid, it was not meant to be that way. At this moment I am just plain confused.

Why he went after those kids, is still firmly within the realm of speculation. We can throw out various possible reasons, but it is difficult to be certain about what was going through the mind of the murderer. Perhaps, he was simply angry at how he felt he'd been treated by his own parents and society, and he wanted to inflict pain on other 'parents' as some sort of twisted symbolic gesture. That is just a guess, that could be completely wrong. Pure speculation, as I don't really know what his intentions were. What I DO know, is that his actions were EVIL, regardless of what thought processes drove them.

[Princess Awinita]

What I DO know, is that his actions were EVIL, regardless of what thought processes drove them.

This was also the only answer my husband came up with too. Personally it is confusing of why he went after the children. Either way, sadly, there is nothing we can do now except hope the families of the deceased will move on.

What struck me as strange though; the recent article on Yahoo!News reported that a Priest who had been tasked in telling the parents of the deceased children of the terrible truth said that some of the parents shared some rather startling memories of just scant hours before, or th day before the shooting occured. what I read he said "One father said his daughter got up extra early, came downstairs and hugged him and told him she loved him. another mother said that her son asked the day before what dying was like. In some ways it is surreal." that's the best I can recall.

I just keep wondering, why go to the school, it makes no sense to me why he went to the school. There was no need for it. but either way, his actions were evil. *shivers*

[Gatefan1976]

This kind of goes to the crux of the argument on gun control. Guns or their availability do NOT cause crime, they are merely tools. An evil person with intent will FIND a way, gun or not. Yes, the evil will use guns to their own ends, but if you believe that good people outnumber evil people then they will serve for the good of society, rather than the ill. Guns are the problem, the culture that creates such evil is the problem.

Are you suggesting that the US culture is evil?
I don't think so, but you couldd be read that way.
As for guns merely being tools, yes, they are just tools, but thay are purpose built tools to kill. They provide intentionally or not a relatively "easy option".

[Seastallion]

Are you suggesting that the US culture is evil?
I don't think so, but you couldd be read that way.

Not precisely, but there ARE certainly evil forces at work within our culture. There IS a culture of violence that has nothing to do with guns per se, and kids grow up with it and think it is okay. The media is full of examples of violent behavior that doesn't always include the philosophy of self defense and the serenity the martial arts are meant to impart. Things get twisted by the dark imagery of things like Death Metal and Gangster Rap, which glorify death and thug behavior. Not just those, but they are just examples of the tools employed by dark forces that glorify negative behavior.

As for guns merely being tools, yes, they are just tools, but thay are purpose built tools to kill. They provide intentionally or not a relatively "easy option".

I agree. They ARE a relatively easy option. That doesn't mean that society is better off without them. If anything gun education and ownership should be improved and expanded, because if more responsible people were carrying them, then the more people there could be that could intervene in situations where the dark elements of society strike. What if several of those teachers had been licensed gun carriers, able to conceal and carry? They could've put the brakes on the evil that happened in CT. The fact is, MOST gun deaths are gang related. The average NRA members are usually older, responsible people, that are well versed in gun safety and make it a point to teach their own kids responsibility with guns. I would agree, that people who want to purchase guns probably ought to be made to take safety courses. However, most of the thugs are getting their weapons illegally, either from the black market, or stealing them from legitimate gun owners, as was apparently the case of the Newtown, CT Shooter (His own mother, ironically).

I would argue to get more guns into the hands of responsible people, rather than the thugs and crazies. That would level the 'playing field' in terms of that 'easy option', but in this case the forces of darkness having guns, would be balanced by those people that are good being equally prepared, to use deadly force in the defense of life. We trust the paid cops to carry arms on our behalf to protect us. We should also be able to trust our fellow good citizens to do the same, on an unpaid voluntary basis. Law Enforcement used to deputize private citizens when there was need, trusting them to use their own weapons in the defense of others. Today, citizen's arrests are still legal, and are still carried out, although it doesn't get reported a lot. The good in society should be allowed to protect us from the bad in society. The 'tool' is just a means to an end.

[Gatefan1976]

Can you elaborate on "Forces of Darkness" for me here?
So far I have heard:-
Violent movies
Video Games (esp, but not limited to FPS's and MMOLRPG's)
Rap music
Death metal

Any more you want to add?

What I find *intensely* curious about this whole affair is everyone wants to point to *one single causative influence* and the fact is, you cannot.

[Seastallion]

Can you elaborate on "Forces of Darkness" for me here?
So far I have heard:-
Violent movies
Video Games (esp, but not limited to FPS's and MMOLRPG's)
Rap music
Death metal

Any more you want to add?

What I find *intensely* curious about this whole affair is everyone wants to point to *one single causative influence* and the fact is, you cannot.

The term 'Dark Forces' is certainly abstract. Some people believe that Satan and Demons actually play a role in motivating and provoking evil actions. I don't go quite that far, although I DO believe that malevolent spirits likely DO attempt to influence evil behaviors for their own unfathomable reasons. There is also the concept that 'ideas' themselves can act like viruses of the mind, infecting and reproducing by the transmission of ideas by the usual methods. Violent and deviant behavior is often passed from one generation to the next. The children of alcoholics often become alcoholics. The molested sometimes become molesters themselves. It is a fact that bad behavior does almost transmit like a virus, even if that isn't really what they are. Children do what they see their parents do. If you have bad parenting, your children will likely end up being a burden on society in some form.

One could even just say it is simply the baser elements of humanity that are being fed, and therefore gaining dominance in our culture. It is based on the same idea as the Ying and Yang. There is an old native American story, about a grandfather telling his grandchild that every person having two wolves inside them, that were always fighting for dominance. A good one, and an evil one. The child asked, "Which one will win?", to which the grandfather replied, "The one you feed the most."

There are many ways someone could describe the "Dark Forces". What matters, is that we all struggle to exist in the 'light' and impress on our children the importance of doing the same. It is one of the reasons for the argument FOR prayer in schools, to acknowledge something greater than themselves. What really matters is that people actively strive to improve themselves. This is the idea behind Buddhism, and the original idea behind Christianity. Saying a prayer alone, isn't enough. People have to actively be initiated into the effort of self improvement.

That is actually one of the concepts in an interesting book I have, entitled "The Mystic Christ". It was the concept of the Ancient Egyptians, that one had to actively work to improve themselves, to become enlightened. The secular mind often usually fails to see the value in this, and only see the Theocratic side of Religion, rather than true idea behind it. The truth of spiritual faith is to believe in something greater than yourself, and to work to improve yourself, so that you can become closer to that greater something, to be one with it. The individual 'god' or religion is beside the point. The Golden Rule is the Golden Rule for a reason. It applies no matter the religion or faith.

Jesus himself said that the Two Greatest Commandments in all of scripture are, To Love they Neighbor as Theyself, and To Love God with all they Heart. He said upon those two scriptures EVERYTHING else was based. You could get by if those were the ONLY two things you knew. And he was right. Regardless of religion, to treat your neighbor as you want to be treated, and to recognize that there is a greater truth is all one needs. You don't even have to know the specifics of that 'greater truth' or God, you just have to acknowledge and respect it.

I hope this answers your question about what I mean by "Dark Forces". It isn't the individual movie, video game, style of music, or whatever. It is the collective darkness that dwells in men's souls, and the things in our culture that feeds it.

[Womble]

My sympathies Womble

Thanks. I hope I didn't give the wrong impression though; it happened over twenty years ago when our family still lived in Belarus. The lowlife asked my dad to let him take our car "for a spin", was refused, tried to take it by force only to get himself knocked down (probably was fooled by my dad's short-and-fat physique and didn't realize that all that weight thrown behind a former boxer's right hook can floor an elephant), and pulled out the gun. My little sister saw the whole thing from the window. The ever-so-brave Belorussian police waited for two hours until they were REALLY sure the perp was gone, then sent in a truckload of SWAT in full gear. Never caught the shooter, obviously.

[Ukko]

Can you elaborate on "Forces of Darkness" for me here?
So far I have heard:-
Violent movies
Video Games (esp, but not limited to FPS's and MMOLRPG's)
Rap music
Death metal

Any more you want to add?

What I find *intensely* curious about this whole affair is everyone wants to point to *one single causative influence* and the fact is, you cannot.

You know, before those things, there was no violence...And death metal has the word death in it..

*Hits GF* Sorry, i watched Kill Bill last night.

[Gatefan1976]

Thanks. I hope I didn't give the wrong impression though; it happened over twenty years ago when our family still lived in Belarus. The lowlife asked my dad to let him take our car "for a spin", was refused, tried to take it by force only to get himself knocked down (probably was fooled by my dad's short-and-fat physique and didn't realize that all that weight thrown behind a former boxer's right hook can floor an elephant), and pulled out the gun. My little sister saw the whole thing from the window. The ever-so-brave Belorussian police waited for two hours until they were REALLY sure the perp was gone, then sent in a truckload of SWAT in full gear. Never caught the shooter, obviously.

Not at all, but as someone who has been threatened with a variaty of weaponry myself (awhile ago now however) I can sypathise a bit. It never entirely leaves you unfortunately.