The Political Discussion Thread

[Seastallion]

Now here is something REALLY interesting, especially if it is really true...

Is the U.S. really using invisibility suits? I don't know.

[Gatefan1976]

Yeah, but that gun is mainly for snipers. Your average soldier won't be carrying one of those, so the armor would still remain effective. The military COULD get serious about it and make some amazing armor if they had the inclination to make it a priority. I think it would raise the survivability of troops if they were all wearing armor. They would certainly have better odds against explosives too.

And semi auto's are for battlefield applications, as is Balistic body armor. Does not stop "joe public with a licence" from aquiring "non civilian use" weaponry now does it?

[Goose]

It's a sad f-ing state of affairs when gun violence has become so prevalent that people don't bat an eye at metal detectors or full-time police coverage at schools.

This. The moment it's considered normal to have to have armed guards at a school because it's so common for school shootings to occur, them there's something seriously messed up with society.

[Seastallion]

This. The moment it's considered normal to have to have armed guards at a school because it's so common for school shootings to occur, them there's something seriously messed up with society.

I don't disagree there are problems, but they are societal, not because of guns of any sort. Very young children were taught to use guns in this country for centuries, and it was never an issue. The problem is coming from the changes in society, not any changes in weapons or their availability.

[KEK]

So long as there has been a trial, and guilt is established without doubt (depending on the actual crime), then I don't have a problem with the death penalty. Quite frankly, there are a few people that are better off not being a burden on society,

Um... it costs the tax payer significantly more to to put someone on death row than it does to imprison them for life. They don't just take them away and kill them once they're found guilty, they're imprisoned for years in the mean time with numerous expensive appeals to get out of the way. And yes, surprisingly often they're later found not-guilty. The fact is without video evidence of the crime, it's almost impossible to know for sure if someone is guilty. "Beyond reasonable doubt" only stretched so far, and ultimately it's based on balance of probability. Most developed countries have come to the conclusion that hanging someone's life on the balance of probably isn't morally justifiable. It's bad enough that someone may be imprisoned wrongly, but killing them is unthinkable.

[KEK]

I don't disagree there are problems, but they are societal, not because of guns of any sort.

So the correlation between gun availability and gun violence in developed countries worldwide is a cosmic coincidence? The vast majority of firearm homicides are not madmen going on rampages or criminals breaking into your house, they're domestic. They're people who have lost their temper and unfortunately have a device designed to kill human beings close-by.

Also, none of the societal problems in the US are exclusive to the US, yet the gun violence is off the chart by comparison. If you look at countries with similar gun homicide per-capita rates as the US, then they're almost all third world countries. The only one that sticks out that isn't is Switzerland, a country with few of the social problems of the US, but one correlating factor - very high gun ownership.

[Goose]

Hey, everyone, you know what's fun? Facts! So why don't well all have a read of the following before we continue with the gun debate, eh?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...united-states/

Now, point two in that article isn't really correct, as the author has admitted. He links to this correction, which is also worth reading (and which busts the myth that Switzerland has a ****load of guns).

[SoulReaver]

o I like this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crandon...onsin_shooting

a dilemma - for both sides. lol

[Wolf O'Donnell]

I do not want to turn this into a debate thread, but I am gonna speak my mind on this topic right now.

in the late 1990s a school shooting took place in colorado. In the years that followed the father of one of the deceased students went around America, begging for one thing, what he begged for was not gun control laws, or even guards at schools to keep guns out of schools, but instead, he begged, did siminars, talks, everything he could to get one thing that was most important back into schools.

Prayer.

My parents went to one of his talks when he went to Detroit, he said that as a child, he'd go to school with his brother, they'd both bring loaded shotguns for hunting after school with them and put the weapons in their lockers, nobody questioned it, none tried to stop them, because back then everyone trusted each other. There was, also at that time, prayer in schools, PUBLIC SCHOOLS HAD PRAYER.

Now. years later, prayer was taken out of all schools execept christian schools, as a result, the violence in schools went up, constantly, every year since prayer was taken out of schools.

Now, I've said my bit, let others rant on gun laws not working. I'll stay out of this thread now folks

In light of all this however, my prayers are with the families of the deceased this day. May those who died today rest in peace

So, I have had a day or so to think about this and at first all I could do was ask this person to clarify what she meant. Today I think I have come up with my own thoughts on the matter and I am of course posting it here rather then in the other thread. So, I have seen a lot of what I would call highly offensive right wing crap on this site such as classics like "Obama should burn up like the anti Christ he is", calling the president and illegal immigrant, Countless hateful comments on gays but I think that due to the nature of this tragedy that this whole comment, debate, whatever if the most ridiculous and offensive thing I have ever seen on this site. You are out right saying that these tragedy wouldn't have happened if they were forced to pray every day in school! You are so arrogant and insane that you think that if these little kids just simply were like you, believed in what you believe, were forced into a belief system that you deem worthy that some jerk with guns wouldn't have killed them! It is almost like you saying "I told you so" with a smug smile! You are saying that if they prayed then this would have been prevented.

Now, you are going to say that, that is not what you are saying as you did in the other thread but you contradicted yourself because in the same thread you answered my post asking if you if what you were really saying was "that this could not have happened if there was prayer in public schools" and you said YES!

Yes. Google it if you must to find the stats.

Let me tell you something, These kids did not get murdered because they did not share your faith, THESE KIDS AND THEIR PARENTS HAD A RIGHT TO BELIEVE WHATEVER THEY WANTED!, these kids were killed by a sick man who should have never been able to get the guns to do what he did, they would have not been saved if they prayed every day. Forcing them to pray would not have stopped another person from going on a killing spree.

You want to say that if he had FORCED prayer when he was in school, that he would never of done this? You can't know that! How arrogant you are to think that you do. Even devout religious people are still just people who can commit crimes, even if he was FORCED to pray to your God or any other god while he was in school, he might not have received the same morals or messages that you or others do. Faith as I understand it requires belief and no matter how much you want to force school children to believe in something, they might not.

When someone said that prayer needs belief you hinted that it was not true. That just the act of praying might bring good and stop this kind of stuff. Faith is not Harry Potter style magic. Saying words without the meaning behind them is simply saying words! In fact if I were religious like my mother is and someone was practicing my faith under false pretenses then I would be offended.

This is a horrible event in American history involving kids being killed and your first reaction is that if they only were made to pray that it wouldn't have happened? I'm appalled.

Amen SIS!!! and I hear you...and i agree whole heartedly. While I do not want to hijack this thread talking about this because I have already been in tears over this senseless horrific mass murder.....however, I honestly believe (being a Christian Teacher in a Private School) that there is power in prayer. I have seen it first hand...when a child is not behaving no matter their age....if they feel they have no one to answer to...no one to be accountable to....they mock authority, they lie to their teachers and parents at age 10 and get away with it...because parents have no rights anymore to discipline their own children....because apparently spanking is bad and/or discipline has been so watered down in schools becuase schools have no authority either. As a teacher I have seen the behaviors of kids become so escalated over the years because they feel they do not have to answer to anyone....not their teachers, not their parents and especially not to GOD.....because God as been removed. YEP REMOVED. So now you have a 10 year old who grows up to be a 20 year old who doesn't have any respect for ANY authority...not his parents...not his teachers....NOT GOD ...not even the police or the government. This is a recipe for disaster, when you have a generation of kids who have no respect for authority...they don't believe in God because he has been Removed and basically discredited in all schools....they revere Santa Claus more than God....so you have a person who has no accountability in life...no fear for the law...and no sense of right and wrong because no adult in their life could even come to consensus on what was right or wrong. Yeah so do you blame them? We as a nation of adults have no clue what is right or wrong because we have removed GOD from everything....we are even trying to remove God from our money, from our pledge....from everything. You are now even ridiculed for mentioning God because you are possibly going to offend someone.

So you have this generation of kids raised by adults who have removed God....(basically saying that God doesn't matter....erasing God from our lives) and then not really telling them what is right and wrong and then not equipping them to help themselves out of depression or perilous situations because they don't know how to pray...they have never been taught to pray they have NO ONE (of a higher power) to comfort them.... so they just snap and this is the result.

I have prayed over and with my students many times, during times of hardship when there has been illness, death, tragedy or even when they have been disciplined. Because I have found as a Christian Educator discipline alone will never work. Prayer is the redeeming, salvific part of the discipline equation. It gives the kid the idea that WHAT THEY DO MATTERS!! THEIR ACTIONS MATTER! AND THEY HAVE TO ANSWER TO GOD ULTIMATELY FOR THEIR ACTIONS. But that can also give them comfort in knowing that God cares and loves them and they have worth, they matter and yes they screwed up and that was wrong what they did but they have to ask God for forgiveness and atone for their sins. If you remove that...you are removing the higher power that could cause them to pause and think aobut what they are doing...you are removing the convictive element...yes the fear. Fear meaning RESPECT...you have removed the need for RESPECT.... giving them nothing to worry about...to them there is no God...therefore there must be no sin...Because you remove God you remove the last remaining authority that any man would have to answer to. (because they don't think anyone will see their actions or care)

This is what we have now.... a generation of kids who have no respect for ANY authority PERIOD!! Be we've done it to them. And this is just the beginning. But I will pray for these families and all who were affected by this horrific tragedy.


As to the comment that Jolinar made that God allowed this? God didn't do this. People did this. Just like guns don't kill people, people kill people. God will not put us on a string and maneuver us like puppets. We have free will, we sin, we reap the consequences of our behavior there is no blame to God in this. Besides we have removed him right? Therefore to even say that God is to blame is ridiculous if you have removed him from your life anyway...IF we have the power to remove and trump God then why would anyone even say such a thing?

Feel free to come on my wall and blast away... I'm sure there will be many of you...bring it...but lets leave it out of this thread. I just felt the need to rescue my poor Sis from the onslaught she received by her expressing her own opinion over keeping prayer in school. So much so she was more or less attacked and mocked that she "left because she couldn't defend her point well enough?" Please! Was that absolutely necessary?

I do not want to turn this into a debate thread, but I am gonna speak my mind on this topic right now.

If you both did not want it to become a debate then why would you say this in the first place? I disagree with you on everything you said but I think you both are smart enough to know that talking about forced prayer and indoctrinating kids with religion is going to be controversial and bring debate.
And you know what, it says a lot about your thought process if you are so closed minded to think that you can post what you think and feel but outright say that you are going to leave the discussion because you already know that other peoples points are just not a worthy as yours.

This is not a nation based on any one faith. Our government and any church are separated. If you want prayer in schools then there are dozens of private schools that do that. If you want prayers in every public school then you should move to a theocracy. You want laws based on certain peoples beliefs? You want every children of every background to be schooled in prayer? Find a theocracy and move there because I think you would absolutely love it and wouldn't have to deal with people do don't pray .

[Wolf O'Donnell]

(I ran out of space)
How many shooting have there been in the past two years? Well lets see, off of memory I remember the

Sikh temple shooting earlier this year. These people were shot in their own house of worship. Now of course i am sure they were not praying to the same god as you and I am sure they did not hold the same beliefs as you but they were praying none the less and they were shot and killed by a crazy racist with a GUN
Stricter gun control wont do anything you say? What about better background checks? This guy outright belonged to a Hate Group that was listed as that by the Southern Poverty Law Center. He apparenly talked and sang about a racial holy war and he was able to buy a Gun!? This guy is one giant red flag and he should not have been able to legally buy a gun. Laws, regulations, and common sense could have prevented this racist monster from killing people. Not prayers but actions and laws!

The shooting us Tuscon in 2011 where many where shot such as a little girl and many were hurt such as a Congress woman. The guy who did this was kicked out of school for mental health issues, he was denied entry in the army do to mental health issues and he was able to buy a Gun?! If we knew what we know now about him when he was attempting to buy a gun then I don't think that anyone would have let him legally get one!

The shooting in a movie theater in Colorado earlier this year. People died who were just trying to see a movie. Apparently people who knew him thought that he might be dangerous and a threat before the event even happened and yet he was able to legally get not just a gun but tons of bullets.
He bought thousands of bullets online. Perhaps we need laws that require someone who wants to guy all these guns and bullets to at least do it in person where another human can use some common sense and evaluate the person buying enough weapons and ammunition to wage a little war. This guy should not have been legally able to buy a gun

There was a shooting in an Oregon mall a few days ago

In August there was a school shooting in Baltimore

In Febuary there was a school shooting in Ohio

You know what the common theme in these stories are? Its not about if these people are religious or not! It is about mentally unstable people being able to get guns! We need laws to make it harder for the wrong people to get their hands on guns!
I don't care if you Dad lives in the middle on nowhere and needs a gun to fight off wild animals, that is not what I am talking about.

If you want to pray because it makes you feel better about what happened, then by all means, but don't go off saying that your belief system could have saved these kids and dont say that restricting these people from shooting other people wont stop them from shooting people!

Bottom line(s): If the guy didnt have the guns, no one would have been shot.

This is not and will never be a country run by religion. We are not a theocracy.

God, prayer, and religion of any kind had absolutely nothing to do with this horrible event.

(After looking at my two posts I see that they are full of grammatical errors and typos. I was angry and typing fast. My bad.)

[Seastallion]

Here are some interesting statistics I found...

http://www.gunblast.com/Gun_Facts.htm

FACT: The non-gun homicide rate for children in the U.S. is more than twice as high than other western countries.

Eight times as many children die from non-gun violent acts than from gun crimes.

* Kids and Guns, 2000, Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention



This indicates that the problem is violence, NOT guns !!

FACT: 82% of homicides to children age 13 and under were committed without a gun.

* 1997, FBI Uniform Crime Statistics



FACT: 0.1% of all deaths for children between the ages 0-14 are from firearms, 0.6% are from motor vehicles, 5.3% are from being struck in beatings or bludgeoning, 6.0% from poisoning, and 42.6% from suffocation.

* 1997 National Center for Health Statistics National Vital Statistics Report



FACT: In 1996 there were only 21 accidental gun deaths for children under age 15. About twice as many children under 10 die from drowning in bathtubs.

* Centers for Disease Control



MYTH: 13 Children are killed each day by guns.

FACT: The statistics cited for this myth include "children" up to age 19 or age 24, depending on the source. Most violent crime is committed by males ages 16-24, so these numbers include adult gang members dying during criminal activity.

*FBI Uniform Crime Statistics, 1997



FACT: 18-20 year olds commit over 23% of all gun murders. None of these criminals are allowed to purchase a handgun due to their age under current law.

* U.S. Treasury and Justice Dept. Report, 1999



FACT: During the Clinton administration, federal prosecutions of gun-related crimes dropped more than 44%.

* Transactional Records Access Clearinghouse (TRAC) at Syracuse Univ. 1992-1998



FACT: There are more than 22,000 gun laws at the city, county, state, and federal level.

* BATF estimate, 1992

If gun control worked, then we should be free of crime.

FACT: There are more guns in the U.S. than cars (228,000,000 guns according to the 1998 FBI statistics and 207,754,000 automobiles according to the 1998 Federal Highway Administration registrations). Yet, you are 31 times more likely to be accidentally killed by a car than a gun according to the National Safety Council…despite cars having been registered and licensed for more than 100 years.



FACT: 90% of all violent crime in the U.S. does not involve any gun of any type.

* 1998 Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms



FACT: Less than 1% of all guns will ever be used in the commission of any type of crime (much less violent crime).

*FBI Uniform Crime Statistics, 1994



FACT: Two-thirds of the people that die each year from gunfire are criminals shooting other criminals.

* FBI Uniform Crime Statistics, 1994



FACT: The national five day waiting period under the Brady Bill had no impact on murder or robbery, but slightly increased rape and aggravated assault rates by a few percent. For these two crime categories, the major effect was to delay law-abiding citizens from getting a gun for protection. The risks were greatest for crimes against women.

* Dr. John Lott Jr., Univ. of Chicago School of Law



FACT: Guns prevent an estimated 2.5 million crimes a year, or 6,849 per day.

* Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State Univ.

Often the gun is never fired and no blood (including the criminals) is shed.

FACT: Every day, 550 rapes, 1,100 murders, and 5,200 other violent crimes per day are prevented just by showing a handgun. In less than 0.9% of the time is the gun ever actually ever fired.

* Gary Kleck, Criminologist, Florida State Univ.



FACT: Every year, people in the United States use a gun to defend themselves against criminals an estimated 2,500,000 times- more than 6,500 people a day, or once every 13 seconds.

* Fall 1995, Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology

This means that, each year, firearms are used 65 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.



FACT: Of the 250,000,000 annual self-defense cases using guns, more than 7.7% are by women defending themselves against sexual abuse.

* U.S. Dept. of Justice, Law Enforcement Assistance Administration,

Rape Victimization in 26 American Cities, 1979



MYTH: Concealed Carry Laws Increase Crime

FACT: When citizens are allowed to carry concealed weapons:

* Murder rates drop 8%

* Rape rates fall 5%

* Aggravated assaults drop 7%

More to the point, crime is significantly higher in states without right -to -carry laws.



TYPE OF CRIME HOW MUCH HIGHER IN RESTRICTIVE STATES (states without Concealed carry laws)

Violent Crime ……………………81% higher

Murder ………………………….. 86% higher

Rape …………………………… 25% higher

Assault…………………………… 82% higher

Robbery………………………….. 105% higher

Auto Theft……………………….. 60% higher

* John Lott, David Mustard: This study involved county level crime statistics from all 3,054 counties in the U.S. from 1977 through 1992. During this time, ten states adopted right-to-carry laws. It is estimated that if all states had adopted right-to-carry laws, in 1992 the U.S. would have avoided 1,400 murders, 4,200 rapes, 12,000 robberies, 60,000 aggravated assaults- and would have saved over $5,000,000,000 in victim expenses.

FACT: 92.7% of law enforcement officials believe that citizens should be able to purchase firearms for self-defense and sporting purposes.

* 1999 Police Survey, National Assoc. of Chiefs of Police



MYTH: Police are our protection, and people don't need guns.

FACT: The courts have consistently ruled that the police do not have an obligation to protect individuals. In Warren v. District of Columbia Metropolitan Police Dept.,

444 A.2d 1 (D.C. App. 1981), the court stated: 'Courts have without exception concluded that when a municipality or other governmental entity undertakes to furnish police services, it assumes a duty only to the public at large and not to individual members of the community.'



FACT: After Canada's 1977 gun controls prohibited handgun possession for self defense, the "breaking and entering" crime rate rose 25%, surpassing the U.S. rate.

* Pat Mayhew, Residential Burglary: A Comparison of the United States,

Canada and England and Wales (Nat'l Inst. Of Just., Wash., D.C., 1987)

MYTH: Japan has strict gun control and a less violent society.

FACT: In Japan, the murder rate is about 1 per 100,000. In the U.S., there are about 3.2 murders per 100,000 each year by weapons other than firearms.

* United Nations data


Therefore, if all of the firearms in the U.S. could magically be eliminated, we would still have three times the murder rate of Japan.

[Womble]

So the correlation between gun availability and gun violence in developed countries worldwide is a cosmic coincidence?

It's a tautology. More guns = guns easier available as instruments of violence = more gun violence. But why single gun violence into a separate category? More guns may mean more gun violence, but it does not mean more violence, or more homicides.

[Goose]

FACT: Of the 250,000,000 annual self-defense cases using guns, more than 7.7% are by women defending themselves against sexual abuse.

* U.S. Dept. of Justice, Law Enforcement Assistance Administration,

Rape Victimization in 26 American Cities, 1979

That data is well over thirty years old!!

[lordofseas]

It's a tautology. More guns = guns easier available as instruments of violence = more gun violence. But why single gun violence into a separate category? More guns may mean more gun violence, but it does not mean more violence, or more homicides.

Guns can kill at faster rates, and depending on the bullet, injure more severely than a knife could.

That data is well over thirty years old!!

The most recent data was from 2000.

[Goose]

The most recent data was from 2000.

Seriously, Seastallion, if you want us to pay any serious attention to your data, you're going to have to find something remotely resembling recent data. If it's five, ten years old, sure, I'll buy it, but data from the middle of the 90s? No way.