The Political Discussion Thread

[mad_gater]

and what "studies" would these be...would those be the same studies that ignore the blatantly obvious fact that our greatest and most powerful gift is becoming more and more objectified with each passing day? which is what Pope Paul VI said EXACTLY would happen if contraceptive use and abortion were encouraged on the grand scale that it is today.....but that's OK....his words fell on deaf ears too, and now today he stands sadly vindicated

[s09119]

@squirrely1: As I said, the proposal the Council is considering involves education that primarily stresses that you should wait to have sex. But to solely teach abstinence and ignore the fact that, yes, kids are going to do it anyway... that's just irresponsible. Abstinence-only education doesn't work, we've seen that time and time again. Better to teach kids that they SHOULD wait, but if they choose not to, teach them how to at least do it safely. And those arguments aside (ignoring the fact that no, giving kids condoms does not significantly increase teen sex), shouldn't kids have the right to know about their own bodies and be made aware of why they feel the way they do? If they're above the age of consent, they shouldn't be taught that they're sinful and evil for doing what they are biologically and legally capable of doing.

@mad_gater: Go do some Google research if you want, I'm not going to write up a dissertation on it for a forum discussion. It's well-documented that increased condom availability to high schoolers does not cause massive increases in teen sex... but it certainly causes a drop in teen pregnancies. And like it or not, "the objectification of sex" is not a valid reason to keep safe sex materials away from kids. Sex has been pretty objectified for thousands of years by almost every civilization. And lastly, the Pope hasn't ruled the (Western) world for centuries, so his opinion on what a good civilization should look like doesn't really matter to me.

[squirrely1]

@squirrely1: As I said, the proposal the Council is considering involves education that primarily stresses that you should wait to have sex. But to solely teach abstinence and ignore the fact that, yes, kids are going to do it anyway... that's just irresponsible. Abstinence-only education doesn't work, we've seen that time and time again. Better to teach kids that they SHOULD wait, but if they choose not to, teach them how to at least do it safely. And those arguments aside (ignoring the fact that no, giving kids condoms does not significantly increase teen sex), shouldn't kids have the right to know about their own bodies and be made aware of why they feel the way they do? If they're above the age of consent, they shouldn't be taught that they're sinful and evil for doing what they are biologically and legally capable of doing.

@mad_gater: Go do some Google research if you want, I'm not going to write up a dissertation on it for a forum discussion. It's well-documented that increased condom availability to high schoolers does not cause massive increases in teen sex... but it certainly causes a drop in teen pregnancies. And like it or not, "the objectification of sex" is not a valid reason to keep safe sex materials away from kids. Sex has been pretty objectified for thousands of years by almost every civilization. And lastly, the Pope hasn't ruled the (Western) world for centuries, so his opinion on what a good civilization should look like doesn't really matter to me.

I would really like for you to post the facts here....a link or something showing me these studies that prove that abstinence education only doesnt' work. And I don't even know if there can even be a fair trial of students that could be a part of such a study ... I mean that whole thing is just preposterous when in any such study we can't be assured that the kids are getting eduction from outside of schools there are just too many variables for there to be a good pure study on that IMO. And if there is such "studies" one would seem to questions the validity of such a study Oh and I never said that we should teach kids that it's evil or sinful for engaging in sex. It just carries consequences that young people aren't equipped to deal with.

[s09119]

Go look at districts that teach abstinence-only. Are any of the kids in school having sex? Okay then, that failed. It's just how the world is today; kids have sex. You can either ignore that fact and keep telling them not to do it and hope that for some reason they suddenly decide to listen... or you can be pro-active and teach them how to protect themselves.

[squirrely1]

Go look at districts that teach abstinence-only. Are any of the kids in school having sex? Okay then, that failed. It's just how the world is today; kids have sex. You can either ignore that fact and keep telling them not to do it and hope that for some reason they suddenly decide to listen... or you can be pro-active and teach them how to protect themselves.

but you would think that those statistics would be steady since the information age...cuz lets face it kids can find anything on the internet these days But if I'm not mistaken teen pregnancy is on the rise.....yet the young people of today seem to know more about sex, have more resources and seem to be more open about it to talk about it than they used to years ago...yet the teen pregnancy rate is up....so why is that? Plus like I said before I'm not convinced that abstinence only schools statistics would be accurate cuz again you can't be assured those kids aren't getting taught else where. I think socio economic and cultural backgrounds play a big role in teen pregnancy rates if that is what they are gauging it by. If you are gauging it by just asking or interviewing the teens with"are you having sex" well they can lie as well So then that would throw out your statistics as well now wouldn't it? I'm just saying...I do not have alot of faith in those type of studies.

[mad_gater]

@squirrely1: As I said, the proposal the Council is considering involves education that primarily stresses that you should wait to have sex. But to solely teach abstinence and ignore the fact that, yes, kids are going to do it anyway... that's just irresponsible. Abstinence-only education doesn't work, we've seen that time and time again. Better to teach kids that they SHOULD wait, but if they choose not to, teach them how to at least do it safely. And those arguments aside (ignoring the fact that no, giving kids condoms does not significantly increase teen sex), shouldn't kids have the right to know about their own bodies and be made aware of why they feel the way they do? If they're above the age of consent, they shouldn't be taught that they're sinful and evil for doing what they are biologically and legally capable of doing.

@mad_gater: Go do some Google research if you want, I'm not going to write up a dissertation on it for a forum discussion. It's well-documented that increased condom availability to high schoolers does not cause massive increases in teen sex... but it certainly causes a drop in teen pregnancies. And like it or not, "the objectification of sex" is not a valid reason to keep safe sex materials away from kids. Sex has been pretty objectified for thousands of years by almost every civilization. And lastly, the Pope hasn't ruled the (Western) world for centuries, so his opinion on what a good civilization should look like doesn't really matter to me.

oh c'mon! have you never heard of the concept of being an enabler for an addict? same principle applies....giving a condom to a kid is like giving a bottle of booze to an alcoholic......teach responsibility first and foremost....giving kids tools that falsely purport to allow them to abuse our greatest and most powerful gift "safely" while at the same time doing nothing to teach them responsibility is foolhardy in the extreme

there is a right way and a wrong way to use every gift...that includes our gift that gives to society in the form of new life....just because you can do it doesn't mean you should....and yes they should have the right to know what those feelings are.....and how to use the self-control God gave them with regard to those feelings so that they can be used the way they were meant to be used....as the greatest expression of life-giving love we as humans are capable of

sex education classes that encourage kids to go out and abuse this gift are what is causing the rise in teen sex and teen pregnancy.....they need to know about the sexual organs and the feelings linked to them....they do NOT need to know how to abuse them to satisfy base and carnal desires....as I will keep saying till it sinks in...we are humans, not animals....as humans we are capable of exerting conscious control over our actions....just because we feel this thing for a member of the opposite sex doesn't mean we have to act upon it....but you advocate precisely that...giving kids things that only give a false illusion of safety which gives implied consent to act with reckless abandon in their use of their sexual gifts.....the truth will out......no matter how much you reject it

[VampyreWraith]

I don't think it matters if your child is taught abstinence only or whether your teaching safe sex, as long as the kids are being taught to respect themselves and others and feel comfortable talking to a trusted adult if they have any questions about sex or their sexuality. (The adult can be parents, teachers, counselers, religious leaders ect). I think its more important for schools to have strict policies against bullying, and spend more time teaching kids to have self confidence, tolerance and respect for others, than worry about handing out condoms and making sure everyone knows about them.

If a teen has low self esteem or lacks confidence, you can give them all the condoms you want, there's no saying they will use them. If they don't think they are worth much they are not going to care about safe sex or remaining abstinent. If a teen doesn't respect others they aren't going to care much about using protection or purity. If kids have a healthy self esteem than they will be more able to make the right choice for themselves; whether that be to abstain from sex, practice safe sex, or go to an adult if they need help making a decision.

Even if kids aren't being taught about contraceptives, or given acess to them, they will probably learn about them, either from other kids, tv, internet, ect . What is important is that they have someone or someplace safe to go to get answers if they have questions.

[Giantevilhead]

Sex education programs are pretty useless because they do not make any significant changes to the environment. It's the same reason why recidivism rates are so high for addicts and criminals.

There is a very simple behaviorist principle called the conditioned compensatory response. This basically means that once conditioned to a stimulus, the body will counteract the effects of the stimulus to maintain homeostasis. For example, if you were to go into a freezer a bunch of times, you will be conditioned. If you were to go into the freezer again, your body temperature will rise even if the freezer is at room temperature. This compensatory response works for drugs, food, and sex as well. This essentially means that drug addicts who go back to the environmental where they regularly shoot up will experience something similar to withdraw, obese people who overeats going back to an environment where they regularly gorge themselves on food will become hungry(ier), etc.

The conditioned compensatory response leads to something called the situational specificity of tolerance, meaning that the environment under which you perform a behavior increases your tolerance to that behavior and its effects. Basically this means that an alcoholic who drinks in a place where s/he regularly gets drunk then s/he will be able to drink a lot more before getting drunk than if s/he drinks in a novel environment. This means that a gang member who commits acts of violence around people s/he regularly commits violence with and in the same neighborhood then that person's tolerance for aggressive behavior will be much greater than if s/he were in a novel environment. The implication for sexual behavior in teens should be obvious here.

Therefore the most effective way to reduce risky behavior in teens is to keep them away from the environments under which those behaviors have previously manifested themselves. Either that or condition extinction of those behaviors in those environments.

[squirrely1]

I don't think it matters if your child is taught abstinence only or whether your teaching safe sex, as long as the kids are being taught to respect themselves and others and feel comfortable talking to a trusted adult if they have any questions about sex or their sexuality. (The adult can be parents, teachers, counselers, religious leaders ect). I think its more important for schools to have strict policies against bullying, and spend more time teaching kids to have self confidence, tolerance and respect for others, than worry about handing out condoms and making sure everyone knows about them.

If a teen has low self esteem or lacks confidence, you can give them all the condoms you want, there's no saying they will use them. If they don't think they are worth much they are not going to care about safe sex or remaining abstinent. If a teen doesn't respect others they aren't going to care much about using protection or purity. If kids have a healthy self esteem than they will be more able to make the right choice for themselves; whether that be to abstain from sex, practice safe sex, or go to an adult if they need help making a decision.

Even if kids aren't being taught about contraceptives, or given acess to them, they will probably learn about them, either from other kids, tv, internet, ect . What is important is that they have someone or someplace safe to go to get answers if they have questions.

I agree. And speaking from my own experiences I acted out as a teen and did the wrong thing and made bad choices not because I didnt know better or wasn't educated, but because I was pretty much the victim of divorce and had little to no supervision. And so yeah I felt I had a void in my life and turned to sex to fill it. I just thank God I didn't end up pregnant and I did eventually find some great adults and teachers to help me through it but in looking back....Parents and adults are so critical to these young people more than they know. That is why I guess now I work very hard to be there for them.

[mad_gater]

I agree. And speaking from my own experiences I acted out as a teen and did the wrong thing and made bad choices not because I didnt know better or wasn't educated, but because I was pretty much the victim of divorce and had little to no supervision. And so yeah I felt I had a void in my life and turned to sex to fill it. I just thank God I didn't end up pregnant and I did eventually find some great adults and teachers to help me through it but in looking back....Parents and adults are so critical to these young people more than they know. That is why I guess now I work very hard to be there for them.

yeah...many people do abuse this gift because they've never been taught how to love.....never been taught that highest form of life-giving love of agape....St. Thomas Aquinas once said that an error in the beginning is an error indeed....in these beginning years of a child's older life teaching them about this gift and the ways in which it can be abused without first teaching them how to love is an error most grievous indeed

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

...As Councillor Pressley pointed out, to claim that sex ed would teach kids how to have sex is nonsense...

This is one of those things that amazes me every time I see it - that somehow, if adults said nothing, that kids wouldn't know how to have sex. As though sexual adulthood is something granted by adults alone. Of course kids know how to have sex. Having sex safely is another matter, and for that, yeah, we have to talk to the kids.

ignoring the fact that kids clearly already know how to have it just fine. The curriculum should, of course, stress that it's best to wait until one's older to engage in sexual activity from the get-go. But knowing that a lot of high schoolers aren't going to heed that advice, follow-up should be given on how to have sex safely (ie. using condoms, information on how and where to be tested for STDs, etc.). And, obviously (IMHO), provide condoms from the health center either at reduced or no charge.

But that's the generic stuff we already have here. What I found most interesting was the proposal that part of the course dwell on subjects such as how to build healthy relationships, what the signs are of an unhealthy or abusive relationship, and other interpersonal advice related to sex ed. In addition, they're pushing for small but robust segments on sexual orientation/gender identity. Taken in full, I found the hearing very enlightening and promising in the ideas the people have for sex education, especially when Boston students overwhelmingly demand greater such courses to prepare them for the real world.

Here, the kids get a "Planning" class, that deals with all manner of real life scenarios, from how to fill out a job application to healthy behaviour in relationships and self-esteem. There's a very specific class in the planning class called sexual health that deals specifically with - obviously - sexual health. These classes lead to very rich conversations at home about what he's learned, and we add where we can, to fill in any possible gaps. Providing this for ALL the kids means that at least they learn it from somewhere. Thankfully.

And a local Christian lobbying group stepped up to say that this took away the rights of parents to choose their children's religious, political, and social beliefs (an argument I found confusing and a little insulting, personally).

I find that immensely insulting, not only to me, but to my kid. I don't have the right to choose my son's politics, religion or social beliefs and I'm damned sure that some religious group doesn't get to decide that for me or my kid. My kid has different religious beliefs from me (he's a Christian, I'm not), his politics have yet to solidify, the same with his social beliefs, but if I don't have the right to stamp my beliefs all over my kid, some other group doesn't get to decide that.

At the end of the day, the simple logic wins out for me; kids are going to have sex no matter what. I waited until college, but it had nothing to do with an abstinence class and everything to do with the fact that I wanted to wait for someone I loved, and I'm very glad I did. But when high schoolers are going to be having sex one way or another, it's best to give them the tools and information they need to do it safely, protecting themselves and their partner.

That, exactly

[shipper hannah]

In regards to evidence that abstinence-only education does not work..

http://www.planetwire.org/files.fcgi...Ed_Kohler_.pdf

Teaching about contraception was not associated with increased risk of adolescent sexual activity or STD. Adolescents who received comprehensive sex education had a lower risk of pregnancy than adolescents who received abstinence-only or no sex education.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...00060-0037.pdf

The vast majority of sex and AIDS education programs in the United States include the following topics: abstinence, contraception, pregnancy, STD, and HIV-AIDS. The studies that we have reviewed indicate that these programs do not increase sexual activity. Studies based on national surveys provide consistent evidence that the programs covering these topics did not hasten intercourse when they were implemented among older students; they provide less consistent evidence about their impact among younger students. The studies of specific programs that included instruction on contraception consistently indicated that none of these programs hastened the onset of intercourse. Indeed, all of them either delayed the onset of intercourse or had no effect upon the initiation of intercourse. Furthermore, of the four studies that examined program impact upon frequency of intercourse, none found significant increases in frequency of intercourse, and one found a significant decrease among the relatively small proportion of youths who initiated intercourse after program implementation.

http://resources.metapress.com/pdf-p...6&size=largest

Study results indicated that most abstinence programs did not delay initiation of sex and only 3 of 9 had any significant positive effects on any sexual behavior. In contrast, about two thirds of comprehensive programs showed strong evidence that they positively affected young people’s sexual behavior, including both delaying initiation of sex and increasing condom and contraceptive use among important groups of youth. Based on this review, abstinence programs have little evidence to warrant their widespread replication; conversely, strong evidence suggests that some comprehensive programs should be disseminated widely.

[shipper hannah]

and what "studies" would these be...would those be the same studies that ignore the blatantly obvious fact that our greatest and most powerful gift is becoming more and more objectified with each passing day? which is what Pope Paul VI said EXACTLY would happen if contraceptive use and abortion were encouraged on the grand scale that it is today.....but that's OK....his words fell on deaf ears too, and now today he stands sadly vindicated

mad_gater, I respect your right to believe whatever you want in regards to with regards to sex and marriage. However there is nothing factual about the statement that sex is "our greatest and most powerful gift", it is entirely subjective. Most people (by which I really mean Western countries) do not share your belief in abstinence.

[mad_gater]

the following has copious amounts of sarcasm...viewer discretion is advised:

yeah.....being told all this and then being like "well since you're gonna abuse it anyway...and I know you will....I am omniscient you know.....I'm gonna help you abuse it...here's a condom......go knock yourself out"....yeah....really great way to teach our children....teach them that they shouldn't abuse this gift then turn right around and give them the very tools by which they can abuse it....real smart....NOT!...can you say "hypocrite?"

way to teach children about their true dignity and worth as human beings, by implying that they can never hope to be any better than wild animals when they meet a member of the opposite sex....riiiiight

you know what my response would be to a kid who's like "well everyone else is doing it so I will too so I need a condom?"

"If everyone else thought it was a capital idea to throw themselves on a high-voltage line would you do it too?"

Abstinence only isn't being given a CHANCE to work because of this prevailing mentality that kids somehow lack the ability to be taught how to treat this gift with the respect it deserves

[mad_gater]

it is our greatest and most powerful gift because of the fact that out of that great expression of a unique life-giving love new life has the potential to be created.....there is no greater gift we have as human being than the gift of man and woman to create new life out of conjugal, life-giving love....and it's sad to see many here so blind to that awesome power....and that with that awesome power comes equally awesome responsibility