The Political Discussion Thread

[Ukko]

Yes but there are flawed systems and then there are fllllaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwweeeeeeeeeeeeeddddddddd systems. The EU is the latter.

Exactly my point.




I do not think that he is.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

Ferage is an idiot.

Farage is politically insignificant, despite the fact that there are many in America that like to cream themselves over the idea that he's leading some almighty fight back against the EU, the fact is he's an leader of an insignificant party that sits in an insignificant parliament.

In the European Union, the majority of the power is held by the European Commission, a group of commissioners, appointed by their respective states, and the parliament actually has a lot less power, it cannot for example propose legislature, that is handled by the commission. The EU is essentially used by a tool by the member states to try an enact European policy that will benefit them, in the case of the UK, that has pretty much led every single government, Conservative or Labour, to try and expand the EU, the more countries there are in the EU, the weaker the Franco German voting bloc and the dominance hey have over policy.

We have always been Eurosceptic in the UK, it is the way the wind blows. No government likes loosing even a small amount of sovereignty, however we need the EU, economically. It is estimated over 40% of our international trading is with the EU, to lose that would be disastrous. The fact that we kept the pound, and are one of the most reticent nations when it comes to closer European integration shows that we are not desperate to be part of the EU in any political way. The UK was desperate to join the European Economic Community (the name of the EU before 93) in the 60's because it was our way out of the economic downturn that followed the Second World War for us. Without it the state of the UK would be poor indeed. However along with economic benefits we now have political baggage. Simply deciding to leave the EU suddenly however would bugger us completely and utterly. Many in the UK are not happy with the EU, it's growing political power infringes on our sovereignty as a nation, it has a massive democratic deficit, corruption problems and is over bureaucratic. Further there are concerns it will go down the plughole, the Euro ties those nations with failing economies and poor economic polices to the more prosperous nations and drags them down. Since we have the Pound our currency is at least not tied to the weaker nations, however there is still a danger that the EU could collapse especially following the recent rescission. For this reason, and for the fact that we may want to leave the EU whether it collapses or not, the UK has begun to look elsewhere for trading partners, to developing nations such as India, who could plug the gap left by the EU. Indeed David Cameron recently visited India and has launched a major trade drive with them. But even so economically this takes time, people should not expect a sudden announcement next week that we are leaving.

Further there is always the chance even with this it may not be possible to leave. While the UK seeks to expand its markets to places like India and Brazil, there is the American problem. After the EU, the U.S is our greatest trading partner, but the Obama administration has caused a fall in confidence with America in the UK, both politically and economically. Hopefully our trade will remain strong, but if it fell it could sink any chance of leaving the EU, or going into economic collapse if the EU comes apart, because even with the new markets, trade with the U.S is another important pillar of our economy.

In the end what Farage and his UKIP buddies don't grasp is that we are not in the EU because we like it, but because we need to be in it currently to be economically afloat. The EU is about as popular as a turd on a sofa in the UK, and the only reason we haven't left is because while leaving it would be very popular, the collapse of the economy following that and everyone going out of a job, wouldn't be. Politically and economically there is often a great deal of difference between want you might want to do and what you can actually do and our membership of the EU is a perfect example. Yes we should be seeking to leave the EU, but such an endeavour will take a great deal of time and cannot be achieved without serious damage to the economy by some dramatic break from the EU which Farage and his UKIP chums desire.

[Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble]

I wouldn't want to leave the EU I think we are stronger together. I am found of our European neigbours.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

I wouldn't want to leave the EU I think we are stronger together. I am found of our European neigbours.

I'm less fond of an organisation with a massive democratic deficit and severe corruption problems. We're in the EU because it is of benefit to us, and in the end the government is simply interested in what advantages, political or economic we can take away from ourselves. It's the same for everybody else in the EU, and if we could leave and still be in an advantageous position, we would.

Being part of the EU, does not make us stronger, it ties us to nations like Ireland, Greece and Italy. In the first two nations that's bad economically, when their economy goes to ****, everyone else suffers, and in the case of the latter nation we get the political practices (corruption of epic proportions) spilling over into the EU.

[Col.Foley]

Farage is politically insignificant, despite the fact that there are many in America that like to cream themselves over the idea that he's leading some almighty fight back against the EU, the fact is he's an leader of an insignificant party that sits in an insignificant parliament.

In the European Union, the majority of the power is held by the European Commission, a group of commissioners, appointed by their respective states, and the parliament actually has a lot less power, it cannot for example propose legislature, that is handled by the commission. The EU is essentially used by a tool by the member states to try an enact European policy that will benefit them, in the case of the UK, that has pretty much led every single government, Conservative or Labour, to try and expand the EU, the more countries there are in the EU, the weaker the Franco German voting bloc and the dominance hey have over policy.

We have always been Eurosceptic in the UK, it is the way the wind blows. No government likes loosing even a small amount of sovereignty, however we need the EU, economically. It is estimated over 40% of our international trading is with the EU, to lose that would be disastrous. The fact that we kept the pound, and are one of the most reticent nations when it comes to closer European integration shows that we are not desperate to be part of the EU in any political way. The UK was desperate to join the European Economic Community (the name of the EU before 93) in the 60's because it was our way out of the economic downturn that followed the Second World War for us. Without it the state of the UK would be poor indeed. However along with economic benefits we now have political baggage. Simply deciding to leave the EU suddenly however would bugger us completely and utterly. Many in the UK are not happy with the EU, it's growing political power infringes on our sovereignty as a nation, it has a massive democratic deficit, corruption problems and is over bureaucratic. Further there are concerns it will go down the plughole, the Euro ties those nations with failing economies and poor economic polices to the more prosperous nations and drags them down. Since we have the Pound our currency is at least not tied to the weaker nations, however there is still a danger that the EU could collapse especially following the recent rescission. For this reason, and for the fact that we may want to leave the EU whether it collapses or not, the UK has begun to look elsewhere for trading partners, to developing nations such as India, who could plug the gap left by the EU. Indeed David Cameron recently visited India and has launched a major trade drive with them. But even so economically this takes time, people should not expect a sudden announcement next week that we are leaving.

Further there is always the chance even with this it may not be possible to leave. While the UK seeks to expand its markets to places like India and Brazil, there is the American problem. After the EU, the U.S is our greatest trading partner, but the Obama administration has caused a fall in confidence with America in the UK, both politically and economically. Hopefully our trade will remain strong, but if it fell it could sink any chance of leaving the EU, or going into economic collapse if the EU comes apart, because even with the new markets, trade with the U.S is another important pillar of our economy.

In the end what Farage and his UKIP buddies don't grasp is that we are not in the EU because we like it, but because we need to be in it currently to be economically afloat. The EU is about as popular as a turd on a sofa in the UK, and the only reason we haven't left is because while leaving it would be very popular, the collapse of the economy following that and everyone going out of a job, wouldn't be. Politically and economically there is often a great deal of difference between want you might want to do and what you can actually do and our membership of the EU is a perfect example. Yes we should be seeking to leave the EU, but such an endeavour will take a great deal of time and cannot be achieved without serious damage to the economy by some dramatic break from the EU which Farage and his UKIP chums desire.

Interesting assumptions you made there.

So in the end what your long post boils down to is that you agree with everything that he says, but yet you need the EU. Pardon me if that does not make the least bit of sense to me. Though I do appreciate the need to make any drastic changes over time. The United Kingdom has, over time apparently...like the rest of Europe and the world and the United States...so we will need a lot of time to get fully out of the mess. The only real complain that you seem to have is that the UKIP wants to leave now and is complaining about these things now. Because I know in this country its going to be a long hall to get out of all of our Big Government messes we are in, but we should make the effort.

And I have not heard a single person, least of all Farage, advocate a complete overnight withdrawl from the EU....but even if that were the case him and his party might simply support the need for pain now. And not pain later. Because the collapse is more then likely coming, it is if you remain part of the EU and let them drag you down with the rest of Europe which will do nothing for Britain. Simply that the more you wait, the worse things will get when you A. finally do decide to bail on the EU and collapse, or when the EU collapses on its lonesome. The more pain you will have. It is the same argument that the US faced with the banks, and it is the same argument the US is facing with the debt ceiling. And I am sure there are those that would prefer an economic collapse and a reboot over slavery any day.

I wouldn't want to leave the EU I think we are stronger together. I am found of our European neigbours.

Hmmm. That is the problem. For one the facts don't bare that out at the moment. With Greece, and now Portugal, and eventually Spain and so on and so on ll collapsing and needing help the rest of Europe is dragging each successive country down in line. Same thing is happening here.

You would be stronger together if you were equal partners working together for the interests of the individual states not having...what is by all acounts a pretty much unelected beurocracy...dictate terms to you in how you are going to bail out everyone who decided to dabble in fiscal suicide.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

Interesting assumptions you made there.

So in the end what your long post boils down to is that you agree with everything that he says, but yet you need the EU. Pardon me if that does not make the least bit of sense to me. Though I do appreciate the need to make any drastic changes over time. The United Kingdom has, over time apparently...like the rest of Europe and the world and the United States...so we will need a lot of time to get fully out of the mess. The only real complain that you seem to have is that the UKIP wants to leave now and is complaining about these things now. Because I know in this country its going to be a long hall to get out of all of our Big Government messes we are in, but we should make the effort.

And I have not heard a single person, least of all Farage, advocate a complete overnight withdrawl from the EU....but even if that were the case him and his party might simply support the need for pain now. And not pain later. Because the collapse is more then likely coming, it is if you remain part of the EU and let them drag you down with the rest of Europe which will do nothing for Britain. Simply that the more you wait, the worse things will get when you A. finally do decide to bail on the EU and collapse, or when the EU collapses on its lonesome. The more pain you will have. It is the same argument that the US faced with the banks, and it is the same argument the US is facing with the debt ceiling. And I am sure there are those that would prefer an economic collapse and a reboot over slavery any day.

I don't agree with Farage, and your comprehension skills need improvement. Let's break it down. It is UKIP policy (that's Farage's party) to push for immediate withdrawal of the EU. His party argue that this will not affect our economy, that there will be no jobs lost and they have the wacky idea that we can set up a "commonwealth free trade area."

I and many other Eurosceptics (ie 2/3rds of the country) do not agree, his polices would lead to economic ruin that we would not recover from. There's a reason why his party, has not a single MP sitting in parliament, out of 650 seats available they have none. They are a fringe party with discredited policies that only gain a few more votes in the EU elections as a protest vote. When more than 40% of our trade is with the EU, harming that would utterly f**k our economy. I mean it's not a case of more pain now, less later, we would be ruined. And that would be when our economy booming, we are coming out of a recession at the moment, any damage to our economy at the moment would be fatal. We are currently stuck with the EU, I do not like it, but I'd rather have them than economic ruin. As I said in my previous post it is quite clear from an analysis of our current government's polices that they are preparing for the possibility of leaving the EU, either by choice or because of its collapse. But their polices actually make sense, the only Commonwealth country their interested in is India, because the remainder are nations that we already do business with or couldn't offer our economy anywhere near the scale we need. Apart from India our focus has also turned to developing markets in South America, and we need time for our economy to switch focus to these new markets . This is the difference between Conservative party policy and UKIP. Conservative Party policy actually looks at what will work, UKIP policies are nothing more than a manifesto to please Daily Mail readers. Their grasp on the realities of the situation is tenuous at best.

We are in the advantageous position of not being as tied to the European economy as the rest, the Pound for example gives us a degree of independence other nations in the EU don't have. It provides us with a measure of protection against other nations economic collapse that those in the Eurozone do not have. Bearing this in mind then it is an insane idea to suggest that we should immediately leave the EU. We arn't ready and we would up a creek without a paddle.

[Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble]

I personally don't see that the current government are making any moves towards possible withdrawal from the EU. For one I doubt Cameron could convince Clegg to leave the EU and the Torys dropped their referendum promise on the Lisbon treaty.

[s09119]

While I like the idea of the EU as being able to compete as a group against larger powers, I have yet to meet someone from a European country that was entirely pleased with it and I suppose that's the opinion that really matters

Which is exactly how Americans have always felt about their country; no one's ever entirely happy with how things are. But that's part of being part of any group, and you need to learn to work together and move past it. Europe's stronger together, and they can't let this crisis destroy what they've spent centuries slowly trying to build.

[shipper hannah]

I wouldn't want to leave the EU I think we are stronger together. I am found of our European neigbours.

I agree. I support the EU.

[Ben 'Teal'c would WIN!!' Noble]

Which is exactly how Americans have always felt about their country; no one's ever entirely happy with how things are. But that's part of being part of any group, and you need to learn to work together and move past it. Europe's stronger together, and they can't let this crisis destroy what they've spent centuries slowly trying to build.

I wouldn't say that but about 70 years I'd say.

[lordofseas]

Which is exactly how Americans have always felt about their country; no one's ever entirely happy with how things are. But that's part of being part of any group, and you need to learn to work together and move past it. Europe's stronger together, and they can't let this crisis destroy what they've spent centuries slowly trying to build.

A house built on a flawed foundation must be ripped apart and built anew.

[jmoz]

Too many people rely on said house. World infrastructure and whatnot.

Here you go Foley, you might like this.

I was talking to an econ major/philosophy minor. He said that the school system should become privatized. One of his principle reasons behind his idea is competition. He believed that with privatization of the school system, competition would drive things higher. Like, with the government currently in control, they set the standard of education. But with privatization of education, the standard would be driven higher and higher due to competition. I agree with him on some parts.

But I still believe there should be a balance of control of education because with a free range privatization, there would likely be a growing disparity between the highly educated and lower educated. And not just that, funding as well. Kinda like the argument that with a completely free market economy, there would be a rise of big businesses that goes against the initial aim of a free market. Too much privatization would result in a sort of big business (in this case, the more successful and better funded schools) driven education system whose real interest is to maintain their big business. I still think there should just be a right amount of balance to maximize benefits.

[Rudy Pena]

Too many people rely on said house. World infrastructure and whatnot.

Here you go Foley, you might like this.

I was talking to an econ major/philosophy minor. He said that the school system should become privatized. One of his principle reasons behind his idea is competition. He believed that with privatization of the school system, competition would drive things higher. Like, with the government currently in control, they set the standard of education. But with privatization of education, the standard would be driven higher and higher due to competition. I agree with him on some parts.

But I still believe there should be a balance of control of education because with a free range privatization, there would likely be a growing disparity between the highly educated and lower educated. And not just that, funding as well. Kinda like the argument that with a completely free market economy, there would be a rise of big businesses that goes against the initial aim of a free market. Too much privatization would result in a sort of big business (in this case, the more successful and better funded schools) driven education system whose real interest is to maintain their big business. I still think there should just be a right amount of balance to maximize benefits.

One of a few problems with that is, they will make the costs much more higher and in todays world only the rich people can afford those $70K funds to pay for private schools. When most people barely make the much or even less than that in 1 year.

[jmoz]

Yeah, that's one of the common misconceptions I think some advocates of privatization of certain aspects have. That money will magically appear out of thin air to support their ventures.

[mad_gater]

well there's 2 types of private schools....those elite ones with the $70K/yr. tuition and they tend to have "Academy" in their name somewhere....and then there's parochial schools...a type of private school run by a church....people could donate more to these churches and then maybe these parochial schools could afford to teach some needy kids for either free or low cost and take some of the pressure off the government-run schools