The Political Discussion Thread

[Annoyed]

Indeed, and in theory it should cose the same.



Color me surprised but why wouldn't there be a roadtax in the first place?

I've been paying road tax for as long as I can remember.

There have been taxes since forever. They're called gasoline taxes, vehicle registration fees, excise taxes on tires, batteries and other essential parts.

Point is, in addition to government subsidies on EV's, they've been getting a free ride on the biggest one, the gas tax. And now they see that they might have to pay their share again.

[Gatefan1976]

That should read "OK fossil fuel addicts, how loud did you scream to get tax put back on the fuel source for EV's?"
Just can't help projecting, can you?

[Womble]

Speaking of EVs. I've finally taken my wife to Germany to meet my family, and we did a Nuremberg-Berlin roadtrip on my brother in law's Tesla Model 3. That trip pretty much settled any possible gripes one may have with EVs.

Distance: 440km. Driving time in rainy weather - 5 hours. Charging mid-way - once, for about 30 minutes, while we were having our toilet break and lunch. People who claim that it only takes 5 minutes to refuel a gas car are not being accurate - on a long drive you don't just fill up the gas and keep on driving, you need to rest, go to toilet, eat, etc. It evens out with the EV's charging times.

Tesla charges freakishly fast, you literally watch the battery charge percentage climb before your eyes. Much faster than phone. Acceleration is insane, felt like flying in a jet. The number of safety features is astounding - the car sees every car in proximity and alerts. Auto pilot keeps the lane so long as the lane is marked, automatically slows down if there's a car in proximity etc. There are TWO trunks, front AND back because the electric motor takes up much less space and it's somewhere inside the car's bottom. And the heating is so much better than gas cars.

[Annoyed]

Speaking of EVs. I've finally taken my wife to Germany to meet my family, and we did a Nuremberg-Berlin roadtrip on my brother in law's Tesla Model 3. That trip pretty much settled any possible gripes one may have with EVs.

Distance: 440km. Driving time in rainy weather - 5 hours. Charging mid-way - once, for about 30 minutes, while we were having our toilet break and lunch. People who claim that it only takes 5 minutes to refuel a gas car are not being accurate - on a long drive you don't just fill up the gas and keep on driving, you need to rest, go to toilet, eat, etc. It evens out with the EV's charging times..

Hardly.

Back in the 80's and 90's, I would haul a boat to the Thousand Islands region on NY State. Combined weight of tow vehicle & boat/trailer was about 8500 Lbs. Trip would take 3-3/12 hours, depending upon the number of idiots on the road that day. Very rarely did we have to make bathroom stops, and fuel wasn't a problem.

So, 8500 Lbs, not an aerodynamic vehicle, moving 60 MPH+ for 3 & change hours. You got an EV that can do that? It's all about how much energy the vehicle can carry, and EV's don't cut it yet.

Most folks can't afford to buy two vehicles, they have to buy something that will do all that they will ask of it.

[SGalisa]

After reading Womble's "Speaking of EVs"...
I can't see how entire mall parking lots can have every single parking space set up with a charging station for electric cars. The energy source to provide every meter would have to be enormous. And some people just don't have 30 minutes to spare in their day to charge up a vehicle to get from point A to point B.

And the biggest question is ... IF gas and oil, nuclear / coal energy sources are going to be removed from this world's usage of it, how are these charging stations going to get the energy to provide the energy to charge the "electric" (non-fossil fueled) vehicles...? This is something many people have been hammering at asking TPTB pushing GREEN NEW DEALs and non-fossil usage energy, but so far, the answers are non-existent. Flying carpets would work as good as what TPTB are proposing with their GREEN NEW DEAL versions... meaning, this idea won't work on a large scale basis yet. Doubt if it will, even within the next ten years. Our earth/world isn't ready for this yet.

Also, at our current (January) 2020 year, the few charging stations that do exist in our mall's parking lots can be counted using both hands, once. Multiply that times thousands of parking spaces... the figures don't add up. Malls will charge people higher rates just to park to pay for the charging stations.

[SGalisa]

Most folks can't afford to buy two vehicles, they have to buy something that will do all that they will ask of it.

I have to add to this, because I live in a needed 2-vehicle family... work routes are different and car-pooling is simply not an option, even for a few days every week. Anywho, my hubby and I had to invest in replacing one of our vehicles because of its age and way beyond out of warranty, etc. So, we got a new car with just the basics. NO fancy stuff at all. And we thought we were getting a bargain with the simple stuff and low payouts... keeping retirement in mind when buying these things was also a priority factor when we bought the car, in the first place.

So, now, I am the only person in my work department who does not have any vehicle that can auto-start AND auto-defrost with a remote control key, so that I can get to work on time, etc. Everyone else has a new car with those abilities (and I'm looked down upon like some freak from ancient times). So, since this is our first year with a new vehicle without those fancy-dancy features, I end up being penalized with forced time off, depending on how long it takes to thaw out and de-ice our car after an ice storm. Not having a garage or car-port to protect the vehicle from the outside environment's elements also doesn't help either.

The only good side to that is knowing how many other people at other businesses are in the same situation I am with just the basics to get something that simple gets us from point A to point B without the fancy features and expensive payouts for all of those other fancy or "environmentally" GREEN NEW DEAL friendly abilities.

[Gatefan1976]

Hardly.

Back in the 80's and 90's, I would haul a boat to the Thousand Islands region on NY State. Combined weight of tow vehicle & boat/trailer was about 8500 Lbs. Trip would take 3-3/12 hours, depending upon the number of idiots on the road that day. Very rarely did we have to make bathroom stops, and fuel wasn't a problem.

So, 8500 Lbs, not an aerodynamic vehicle, moving 60 MPH+ for 3 & change hours. You got an EV that can do that? It's all about how much energy the vehicle can carry, and EV's don't cut it yet.

Most folks can't afford to buy two vehicles, they have to buy something that will do all that they will ask of it.

Most SINGLES can't afford to buy two cars, in which case your argument holds weight. For families, 2 is almost required.

[Womble]

Hardly.

Back in the 80's and 90's, I would haul a boat to the Thousand Islands region on NY State. Combined weight of tow vehicle & boat/trailer was about 8500 Lbs. Trip would take 3-3/12 hours, depending upon the number of idiots on the road that day. Very rarely did we have to make bathroom stops, and fuel wasn't a problem.

So, 8500 Lbs, not an aerodynamic vehicle, moving 60 MPH+ for 3 & change hours. You got an EV that can do that?

Why, yes, the Tesla Cybertruck. Towing capability of up to 14 000 Lbs depending on price bracket. 500+ miles range. And the crazy torque that only electric motors are capable of, leaving sports cars in the dust.

P.S. I love answering rhetorical questions.

[Womble]

After reading Womble's "Speaking of EVs"...
I can't see how entire mall parking lots can have every single parking space set up with a charging station for electric cars. The energy source to provide every meter would have to be enormous.

On our road trip, we parked at just such a parking lot in Salzburg. It can be done and is being done in Europe as we speak.

And some people just don't have 30 minutes to spare in their day to charge up a vehicle to get from point A to point B.

Maybe long-haul truckers don't. Nobody else drives all day never stopping for food or toilet.

And the biggest question is ... IF gas and oil, nuclear / coal energy sources are going to be removed from this world's usage of it, how are these charging stations going to get the energy to provide the energy to charge the "electric" (non-fossil fueled) vehicles...?

Solar, wind, geothermal, hydroelectric. Right now Germany's share of renewable energy in the total electricity supply is approaching 35%. Give it another decade or two, and they will go all-renewable.

Also, at our current (January) 2020 year, the few charging stations that do exist in our mall's parking lots can be counted using both hands, once. Multiply that times thousands of parking spaces... the figures don't add up. Malls will charge people higher rates just to park to pay for the charging stations.

So you need more charging stations. From what I've just seen in Germany and Austria, every gas station has 8-10 charging stations, every big public parking lot has charging stations, and cities have charging stations spread around the public parking spots in the streets in groups of 2-3. We never had a problem searching for a place to top up en route or to leave the car charging overnight.

[Annoyed]

After reading Womble's "Speaking of EVs"...
I can't see how entire mall parking lots can have every single parking space set up with a charging station for electric cars. The energy source to provide every meter would have to be enormous. And some people just don't have 30 minutes to spare in their day to charge up a vehicle to get from point A to point B.

Somehow, the advocates of EV's always forget that the energy has to come from somewhere.

And of course YOU have time to sit and wait.. But how much you want to bet the Kindergartner and her ilk don't, and exempt themselves from all of these bans, gasoline, air travel and such? Just as Al Gore showed up to environmental rallies in a large SUV.

And the biggest question is ... IF gas and oil, nuclear / coal energy sources are going to be removed from this world's usage of it, how are these charging stations going to get the energy to provide the energy to charge the "electric" (non-fossil fueled) vehicles...? This is something many people have been hammering at asking TPTB pushing GREEN NEW DEALs and non-fossil usage energy, but so far, the answers are non-existent. Flying carpets would work as good as what TPTB are proposing with their GREEN NEW DEAL versions... meaning, this idea won't work on a large scale basis yet. Doubt if it will, even within the next ten years. Our earth/world isn't ready for this yet.

You don't expect rational thought from idiots like the Kindergartner and her ilk, do you? She's like a child, threatening to stomp her feet and hold her breath till she gets what she wants. No thought whatsoever how to make it work. Or pay for it.

This kind of thing will eventually be possible. But the technology just isn't on the shelf yet. Rather than spending so much time, effort and energy trying to trash our economy, why don't they crawl into some environmentally neutral cave and stay there until they come up with the needed tech.?

[Gatefan1976]

Err, Womble already gave you 3 alternative energy sources in use today.
Me I'd add nuclear to those 3 in places where none of those options are viable.

[Annoyed]

Err, Womble already gave you 3 alternative energy sources in use today.
Me I'd add nuclear to those 3 in places where none of those options are viable.

I support Nuclear for stationary generation; it's the best we have today. But who is it that has made it prohibitively expensive to build with hundreds of lawsuits intended to block construction?

But I'm talking about portaable use, such as cars & trucks. Or has Australia come up with nuclear powered cars? That would be a good thing indeed.

[Womble]

I support Nuclear for stationary generation; it's the best we have today. But who is it that has made it prohibitively expensive to build with hundreds of lawsuits intended to block construction?

But I'm talking about portaable use, such as cars & trucks. Or has Australia come up with nuclear powered cars? That would be a good thing indeed.

Too Fallout for my taste.

But you don't need portable in the sense of gas canister in the trunk. You need infrastructure for EVs spread as wide as gas stations.. Although adding a high capacity backup battery is not unrealistic.

[mad_gater]

Too Fallout for my taste.

But you don't need portable in the sense of gas canister in the trunk. You need infrastructure for EVs spread as wide as gas stations.. Although adding a high capacity backup battery is not unrealistic.

and I daresay that such widespread numbers of charging stations would be highly tempting targets for any terrorist with an EMP weapon

[Annoyed]

Too Fallout for my taste.

But you don't need portable in the sense of gas canister in the trunk. You need infrastructure for EVs spread as wide as gas stations.. Although adding a high capacity backup battery is not unrealistic.

For portable use, such as vehicles, the bottom line is energy density. How much energy can you store in the vehicle's energy storage.

And at this point in our technological development, petroleum is the undisputed master of the universe.

Eventually, electrical storage will improve so that it can practically take the place or maybe even surpass petroleum. Or another portable generation technology will come along.

But it ain't here yet, and until there is something equal to or better than gasoline, the Kindergartner and her ilk can go pound sand.