The Political Discussion Thread

[magi877]

Do you have no ability to detect stupid?


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You have an issue.
Criticisms levelled against the USA, or the UK, OR AUS, don't actually criticise the residents of said country.
They criticise policy.
If you VOTED for such policy, then you had a hand in it.
If you voted for it, you can get blamed for it (or exulted for it if it works)

Are you being "nationalistic" about it now?
How about you turn that lens onto what AMERICA has done for nationalism?

Oh, and didn't you say the past does not matter?
That "people like me" are pulling scabs of old wounds?
The French might like a word with your selective memory.
majority of americans, left and right, firmly believe that Vietnam as a nation totally at peace before any american set foot there

and, both political sides have done this at different times in different situations. like when some, in the GOP tried to blame Roosevelt of instigating the Japanese attack on Hi.

[/QUOTE]

the 'scabs' was in reference to ethnic relations and prejudices

none of your response has anything to do with Hong Kong

your failure to lay blame right where it belongs, on Britain and it's past and the false hope their presence in HK had given to multiple generations of HK residents of Chinese descent, kind of makes you look like a G.B. apologist

the FRENCH were wholly responsible for the Vietnam war-theirs and ours. They were supported in their efforts by British occupation forces south of the 16th parallel after ww2 and took british advice to not accept the govt that Ho Chi Mihn had established with the help of the US OSS--->>>

At the Potsdam Conference in July 1945, the Combined Chiefs of Staff decided that Indochina south of latitude 16° north was to be included in the Southeast Asia Command under British Admiral Mountbatten. Japanese forces located south of that line surrendered to him and those to the north surrendered to Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek. In September 1945, Chinese forces entered Tonkin, and a small British task force landed at Saigon. The Chinese accepted the Vietnamese government under H? Chí Minh, then in power in Hanoi. The British refused to do likewise in Saigon, and deferred to the French there from the outset, against the ostensible support of the Vi?t Minh authorities by American OSS representatives.


from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Indochina_War

[magi877]

Lol!!!

Are you really going to ignore today's big news? Trump personally ordering Israel to bar the 2 Dems candidated exactly because their political views are different?.

Are you that much of an hypocrite Annoyed?

it si not just political views. they are both avowed anti jewish muslim fanatics

and this was not trump personally ordering anything

people of this type are barred from entry by israeli law that has been in effect for quite awhile. this is the law that bans any one entry who is in support of the boycott of israel. both of these muslima's are in support of that boycott.

and, as if they really thought they would get in with this stupidity-- their official congressional itinerary stated they would be going to palestine, not israel. so they really never expected to get in to begin with

https://www.wsj.com/articles/israel-...it-11565859308

if israel -as much as i dont like that govt-had allowed them into the occupied territories the fanatics there would have used it has a propaganda tool and a sign of american support for them

[magi877]

No, it's just the first place you wanted under colonial style rule.

what evidence of this? please post a link

[Gatefan1976]

as i have said several times, i do not want to see Trump win again, or did I want to see him win the first time

But he did, based on what you believe,

his presidency is good for one thing only- breaking a system so long corrupted and paid for by donations and lobbyists that it takes this kind of extreme to hopefully, draw attn to the needed reforms to our electoral system

This is the most stupid, self defensive crap I have read.
Trump has made NO MOVES, ZERO, NADA, ZILCH, **** ALL, to drain a DAMN THING, in fact, he has made EVERY EFFORT to insure his buds get the sauce, and, well, you get flint water.
You were warned about it, you did not care.

Oh, you WANTED him to be the pipe bomb, you wanted him to "shake it up", on that I have no doubt at all.
But he is a moron, a 7 times bankrupped moron who has paid off, or legally ground people out to not oppose him.
He IS the swamp.
What on EARTH made you think he would "fix your issues"?

but this video is also about how so many people are leaving the democrats behind as they feel more and more ignored by the democratic party

The Dems ARE loosing people, they are tired of the partisanship.
How Tired do you think the repups are?

they lost in 2016 by taking for granted the middle america states that long voted democrat (michigan, wisconsin, etc) and just plain belittled other voters in states where they could have one (PA, NC, etc)

They lost via the EC, not votes.
Don't be as stupid as Annoyed.
The EC is not a mandate driven body.

most people of either party, do not care about transgender issues or are they even that worried about man made climate change- they worry more about what the face day to day- job security, fair pay, their tax burden, good schools for their kids, etc.

Wow, that's ignorant.
Transgender and other sex rights -ARE- more philosophical, I'll grant that, but Climate change?. Climate change IS about job security, fair pay is about who you want to give power to, the corps or the people, Tax burden is about government control. As for kids and schools, the republicans abandoned them long, long ago.
You have no right to talk about them, when your only answer is "do it yourself".
Your entire generation was BUILT on the back of the BEST "socialism" had to offer. Fair pay, fair work, hope in the future and investing in that future.
Investing in you.
What do you invest in these kids?
"Ma tax dollars"??

the dems have also lost so much of the african american vote in urban areas. they have taken for granted for far too long that afr-americans will not question the agenda and just vote for them "because they always have"

No they have not.
Blacks used to be solidly Republican.
So what happened?

and so far, the dems for the 2020 race have done nothing to change any of these attitudes they have towards voters. some of the minor candidates have like Gabbard and Ryan, but they are being stifled and shut out by the media as much as possible

Not really.

if they lose again in 2020, it will be interesting who or what they will blame the loss on then

And if trump wins, what will you "blame" that on?

[Gatefan1976]

the 'scabs' was in reference to ethnic relations and prejudices

I know what they were for, you are wrong.

none of your response has anything to do with Hong Kong

your failure to lay blame right where it belongs, on Britain and it's past and the false hope their presence in HK had given to multiple generations of HK residents of Chinese descent, kind of makes you look like a G.B. apologist

the FRENCH were wholly responsible for the Vietnam war-theirs and ours. They were supported in their efforts by British occupation forces south of the 16th parallel after ww2 and took british advice to not accept the govt that Ho Chi Mihn had established with the help of the US OSS--->>>

At the Potsdam Conference in July 1945, the Combined Chiefs of Staff decided that Indochina south of latitude 16° north was to be included in the Southeast Asia Command under British Admiral Mountbatten. Japanese forces located south of that line surrendered to him and those to the north surrendered to Generalissimo Chiang Kai-shek. In September 1945, Chinese forces entered Tonkin, and a small British task force landed at Saigon. The Chinese accepted the Vietnamese government under H? Chí Minh, then in power in Hanoi. The British refused to do likewise in Saigon, and deferred to the French there from the outset, against the ostensible support of the Vi?t Minh authorities by American OSS representatives.


from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Indochina_War

I blamed colonialism, The US did not flex that muscle until after WW2.
Previous to that, you were pretty insular.
Oh, and I STARTED with blaming the UK.

[magi877]

I know what they were for, you are wrong.


I blamed colonialism, The US did not flex that muscle until after WW2.
Previous to that, you were pretty insular.
Oh, and I STARTED with blaming the UK.

well great then! see, you do get some things correct now and again!

gold star for you!

[magi877]

But he did, based on what you believe,

This is the most stupid, self defensive crap I have read.
Trump has made NO MOVES, ZERO, NADA, ZILCH, **** ALL, to drain a DAMN THING, in fact, he has made EVERY EFFORT to insure his buds get the sauce, and, well, you get flint water.
You were warned about it, you did not care.

Oh, you WANTED him to be the pipe bomb, you wanted him to "shake it up", on that I have no doubt at all.
But he is a moron, a 7 times bankrupped moron who has paid off, or legally ground people out to not oppose him.
He IS the swamp.
What on EARTH made you think he would "fix your issues"?

The Dems ARE loosing people, they are tired of the partisanship.
How Tired do you think the repups are?

They lost via the EC, not votes.
Don't be as stupid as Annoyed.
The EC is not a mandate driven body.

Wow, that's ignorant.
Transgender and other sex rights -ARE- more philosophical, I'll grant that, but Climate change?. Climate change IS about job security, fair pay is about who you want to give power to, the corps or the people, Tax burden is about government control. As for kids and schools, the republicans abandoned them long, long ago.
You have no right to talk about them, when your only answer is "do it yourself".
Your entire generation was BUILT on the back of the BEST "socialism" had to offer. Fair pay, fair work, hope in the future and investing in that future.
Investing in you.
What do you invest in these kids?
"Ma tax dollars"??


No they have not.
Blacks used to be solidly Republican.
So what happened?

Not really.

And if trump wins, what will you "blame" that on?

I did not vote for Trump or Hillary, both parties are screwed, I vote for the right person as I deem them

i am not saying i do not think that issues like protected people rights or Man made climate change are not important, i am saying that a huge number of americans do not think them important. they are motivated by what is in front of them now

working, feeding the family, paying the bills. the day to day stuff is what concerns them

the electoral college is a inefficient and unrepresentative way of selecting the president, but it would take a constitutional amendment to change it

our elected officials are now too engrossed in the business of their own self interests, not of the people. left and right are both buried in temporary and fleeting issues (fleeting because Trump will not be president forever) rather then long term important ones. ones like getting rid of the electoral college and campaign finance reform among others

I did not say that Trump has done anything to 'drain the swamp'. my statement of 'break the system' is that we need the extremes of both sides to be president. expose the nation to the craziness of our system so that then,hopefully, when this exposure occurs, the majority of americans we see that the system does effect their day to day concerns and then demand a fix to it

or system, as it currently exists, will never ever be able to take on the issues of climate change or anything that large in scope or importance while the elected are in a system that basically requires them to begin running a re-election campaign from the day they are sworn in (house of reps, 2 yr term, that puts them at a year from beginning a reelection campaign). this leaves them no real time for the business of governance so they engage in fluff issues like they are now.

and, for f^ck sakes, take a breather and relax!

[Annoyed]

i agree with this, although i do not want to see Trump re-elected. dude is a total freaking, pompous assed jerk

Sure, Trump has his "issues".

But would you rather see him re-elected, or would you rather see the US go down the socialist path the Democrats are pushing? 'Cause that will be your choice.

[Annoyed]

Lol!!!

Are you really going to ignore today's big news? Trump personally ordering Israel to bar the 2 Dems candidated exactly because their political views are different?.

Are you that much of an hypocrite Annoyed?

Actually, I was unaware of this. I've spent most of the the past 3 days under the kitchen counter, replacing a 40 year old dishwasher that finally gave up the ghost. That is not a fun project.

Oh, and as a side note.. the new models are supposedly so much more energy efficiant, but the old one's specs plate stated it drew 8 amps, and and cycle time was about an hour. This one's plate requires a 12 amp ckt, and it runs for 2 hours and change.

Must be the new math they're filling the kids' skulls with today.

[Gatefan1976]

I did not vote for Trump or Hillary, both parties are screwed, I vote for the right person as I deem them

Gold star for you then, because that's how I vote as well.

i am not saying i do not think that issues like protected people rights or Man made climate change are not important, i am saying that a huge number of americans do not think them important. they are motivated by what is in front of them now

Can't you see the inherent dichotomy of that statement Vs saying people are concerned with the fleeting?
I know YOU PERSONALLY might take the long view, but there are too few people of any party who do.

working, feeding the family, paying the bills. the day to day stuff is what concerns them

Yes, sure, but they ignore the impact of the larger issues that make the "coffee table" issues harder.
Politics is not a micro-view thing, and we both know that.

the electoral college is a inefficient and unrepresentative way of selecting the president, but it would take a constitutional amendment to change it

Yes it would.
BUT:

our elected officials are now too engrossed in the business of their own self interests, not of the people.

Sorta makes that a non option as ditching the EC would affect one party more than the other.

left and right are both buried in temporary and fleeting issues (fleeting because Trump will not be president forever) rather then long term important ones. ones like getting rid of the electoral college and campaign finance reform among others

No argument here.

I did not say that Trump has done anything to 'drain the swamp'. my statement of 'break the system' is that we need the extremes of both sides to be president. expose the nation to the craziness of our system so that then,hopefully, when this exposure occurs, the majority of americans we see that the system does effect their day to day concerns and then demand a fix to it

But that does not work, and that's not just an American issue. All it leads to is division and massive ideological swings. We had it with Julia Gillard, You guys had it with Obama.
People stop listening Magi.

or system, as it currently exists, will never ever be able to take on the issues of climate change or anything that large in scope or importance while the elected are in a system that basically requires them to begin running a re-election campaign from the day they are sworn in (house of reps, 2 yr term, that puts them at a year from beginning a reelection campaign). this leaves them no real time for the business of governance so they engage in fluff issues like they are now.

Agree, but there are other systems with longer terms than you folks have.

and, for f^ck sakes, take a breather and relax!

You are learning

[Gatefan1976]

Sure, Trump has his "issues".

But would you rather see him re-elected, or would you rather see the US go down the socialist path the Democrats are pushing? 'Cause that will be your choice.

You want to go back to socialism Annoyed.
How do you not get that?
The New deal was as about as socialist as you could get in a capitalist society, and it created the greatest boom of wealth in your nation, and it was your generation that reaped those rewards.
Everything you want back, was based on socialist idea's with a sprinkle of capitalism.
Protection for workers? SOCIALIST
Fair pay? SOCIALIST
Single income families working? SOCIALIST
Retirement? SOCIALIST
Add some capitalism sprinkles on top, and you get a wonderful, thriving idea.
The reverse however is not true because the main focus is not "we, the people", it's "us the corporations", and they only need to sprinkle fairness onto their "concerns", leaving the rest of you behind.
Get a job with us and we will give you all the socialist stuff you want, don't work for us, not our problem.

How you, as a mechanic cannot understand this is beyond me.
You work with machines that need harmony between it's systems to function as it was designed. Machines are,...…. socialist. You need good tyres to stay on the road, but they are useless without a drive train, which is useless without an engine, which is useless without fuel, and the whole thing is useless without a direction.
What happens to a car you spend a grand on for tyres, but ignore putting petrol, or having maintenance work done?
You get a P.O.S. on good rubber.
Looks good, doesn't work though.

[mad_gater]

You want to go back to socialism Annoyed.
How do you not get that?
The New deal was as about as socialist as you could get in a capitalist society, and it created the greatest boom of wealth in your nation, and it was your generation that reaped those rewards.
Everything you want back, was based on socialist idea's with a sprinkle of capitalism.
Protection for workers? SOCIALIST
Fair pay? SOCIALIST
Single income families working? SOCIALIST
Retirement? SOCIALIST
Add some capitalism sprinkles on top, and you get a wonderful, thriving idea.
The reverse however is not true because the main focus is not "we, the people", it's "us the corporations", and they only need to sprinkle fairness onto their "concerns", leaving the rest of you behind.
Get a job with us and we will give you all the socialist stuff you want, don't work for us, not our problem.

How you, as a mechanic cannot understand this is beyond me.
You work with machines that need harmony between it's systems to function as it was designed. Machines are,...…. socialist. You need good tyres to stay on the road, but they are useless without a drive train, which is useless without an engine, which is useless without fuel, and the whole thing is useless without a direction.
What happens to a car you spend a grand on for tyres, but ignore putting petrol, or having maintenance work done?
You get a P.O.S. on good rubber.
Looks good, doesn't work though.

actually what brought about that generation of economic growth was the productivity and innovation that came about as a result of having to fight in WW2....and after that the productivity and innovation that came about as a result of the cold war with the USSR that darn near became hot more than once

in fact in one of my grade school history classes it is said that the economy was starting to slump again prior to the outbreak of WW2 despite all of FDR's "pump-priming"...i.e., his socialistic bubble was starting to burst...but productivity and innovation, neither of which can come from government as it is a strictly regulatory entity, are the natural drivers of economic growth and are what ultimately turned the economy around

[Gatefan1976]

actually what brought about that generation of economic growth was the productivity and innovation that came about as a result of having to fight in WW2.....

So, you would rather the cause being war?
(oh, and no one forced you into WW2, except Japan who actually attacked you)

and after that the productivity and innovation that came about as a result of the cold war with the USSR that darn near became hot more than once

Thru the government, not the corporations.

in fact in one of my grade school history classes it is said that the economy was starting to slump again prior to the outbreak of WW2 despite all of FDR's "pump-priming"...i.e., his socialistic bubble was starting to burst...but productivity and innovation, neither of which can come from government as it is a strictly regulatory entity, are the natural drivers of economic growth and are what ultimately turned the economy around

This is mind blowing ignorance.
It's the government, AND corporations, AND the workforce working together that works.
It's exactly why your founding fathers separated your government into 3 parts.
Socialism isn't the "right way", nor is Capitalism.
It's them working togeather.

[magi877]

Sure, Trump has his "issues".

But would you rather see him re-elected, or would you rather see the US go down the socialist path the Democrats are pushing? 'Cause that will be your choice.

sure, why not?

i think it might finally wake up more americans from their apathy and have them demanding some changes to our election system and federal governance in general

[Chaka-Z0]

it si not just political views. they are both avowed anti jewish muslim fanatics

That's not true, they are anti-Israël and denounced their policies for what they are, which is racist policies. But again, if you dare oppose a religious regime you will be labelled as anti-muslim or whatever else. They are untouchable.

and this was not trump personally ordering anything

You are misinformed friend, he did.

people of this type are barred from entry by israeli law that has been in effect for quite awhile. this is the law that bans any one entry who is in support of the boycott of israel. both of these muslima's are in support of that boycott.

Which brings us back to... if your political views are different you aren't allowed in.

and, as if they really thought they would get in with this stupidity-- their official congressional itinerary stated they would be going to palestine, not israel. so they really never expected to get in to begin with

Tlaib sent a letter to Israeli authorities requesting access to visit her grandmother in occupied West Bank, which they granted for humanitarian reason.