The Political Discussion Thread

[Annoyed]

you make it sound like Tojo was some sort of pre-restoration shogun or something

you mean those 3 carriers? at a time when the US was building like 1 carrier a day what would the loss of those 3 boats have changed - delayed the Normandy invasion by 3 days?


and back to the topics that hurt: now that your king's finally "fessed up" how do you feel about you having to pay for the wall?

You really need to get smacked upside the head with a history book. If Enterprise, Saratoga and Lexington had been in Pearl, we might be very well be speaking German these days.

I never expected Mexico to pay for the wall. The important point was that he wanted to build a wall.

First politician in 40+ years that wanted to do something effective.

[SoulReaver]

You really need to get smacked upside the head with a history book. If Enterprise, Saratoga and Lexington had been in Pearl, we might be very well be speaking German these days.

so 3 ships can somehow make a yuge difference in a country like the US? you really gonna have to explain how this works

unless you're talking about those three ships

I never expected Mexico to pay for the wall.

(yeah man it's just billions no biggie right?) all the same the vast majority of trumpets did so my question was addressed at them

hey where's the Annoyed who's annoyed at excessive Government spending & taxes? 'tis most passing strange how silent he is

The important point was that he wanted to build a wall.

First politician in 40+ years that wanted to do something effective.

that last word's the lol factor (if anything that wall will make your borders less secure)

[jelgate]

I call BS

[mad_gater]

See, I don't agree with that, (lasting longer) simply because we cannot know if it would or it wouldn't, nor do we know if it would have cost more US troops. Japan, whilst willing to sacrifice it's own troops or civilians in order to fight "on principle" (and yes, weather we agree on the principle or not, it's still principle), it's no different to the US going off to Vietnam to "stop the commies" as a principle.

Let's just start a new year with some of us on sometimes (oftentimes?? ) diametrically opposed views finding some common ground.
It's what we need going forward, don't you think?

yes it would've indeed lasted longer than dropping a couple of nukes

and considering the fanaticism present in a lot of the Japanese people at the time it probably would've been an uphill fight proverbially speaking

[SGalisa]

More USA government shutdown news...
Background first...

If Trump keeps using building the WALL as a claim or bragging about shutting the gov't shut down for weeks or months, and KEEPing it shut down (possibly) for "years", he might find himself sooner than later on the outside looking in. People won't tolerate this for too long. Especially, those waiting for their welfare, section 8, EBT, whatever (Federal) financial assistance program, SS, etc, benefits that might be affected by this "shutdown".

Hype is going on about people expecting money back during their IRS income TAX time, that they won't likely get it as soon as they would like it back.

Also, if the USA economy tanks.... well, there goes the USA as a historic entity. Say, hello to the next invader(s) taking over the land. Bunkers won't help in that situation, and supplies won't last for very long, either, most likely for those clinging on to their (soon-to-be) former abodes.

Time will tell how long the USA will be on track with the above scenario...

Whether or not the Dems previously agreed on funding for "border protection" that doesn't necessarily state it meant a SOLID border WALL. Perhaps they changed their mind (about building any type of walls, that is) if they did intend to do that during Obama's presidential term.


President Trump is Never going to get the Dems to agree on a border WALL or proper funding for it. If it ever does happen, it might be a miracle. The whole problem behind the WALL issue is that Trump started discussing it by instigating that "Mexico will (or would) pay for the WALL"...

Next item... Keeping the gov't (Federal) agencies "shut down" isn't going to change anything, except help me get caught up on the mountains of paperwork I have to do in my job...

Also, since Nancy Pelosi clearly spelled out that Congress will NOT fund "Homeland Security" ...so, here is a question----
Does that include NO more TSA security at the airports or train/subway stations, etc.? Because if it does, and *safety* is no longer being monitored 24/seven/365 etc, that just puts our nation back to a vulnerable PRE-September 11, 2001 situation. That means anyone and anything can possibly pass thru. Not cool nor acceptable... Even NY Democrat lefty Chucky Schumer should realize that!

No funding for Homeland Security... hmmm...
So, does that translate as no more checking thru luggage or scanning each person AND their personal items as they enter the gateway path to the air? Inquiring minds would like to know...
. . .
It will be interesting to see how this whole scenario unfolds, and WHO, if such a moment occurs, will replace Trump, and especially if those in governing positions decide they don't like VP Mike Pence, either.

Some of the less fortunate gov't workers are the ones who are *REALLY* hurting.
BBC article shows some examples. It's only January 12, 2019 at the moment. See how long this goes on, before the idiots break their political stalemate roadblocks, which is affecting *some* workers living from week to week (not much in the proverbial spare cash kitty drawer).

(NOTE: article link has videos... some come in on automatic-play!)

"US shutdown bites as federal workers miss payday"
BBC News, 01/11/2019

. . .
On Friday, those workers missed their first payday of this shutdown. Some shared their blank payslips on social media.

Oscar Murillo, an aerospace engineer at Nasa, posted his $0 cheque on Twitter and said he had actually lost money because of mandatory deductions.

Another Twitter user, Cat Heifner, shared what she said was her brother's payslip, showing he had been paid one cent for his work as an air traffic controller.
. . .
Radha Muthiah, head of Capital Area Food Bank, said that dozens of volunteers are working to pack bags of food for affected staff.

Of the 800,000 federal employees going unpaid, about 350,000 are furloughed - a kind of temporary lay-off - while the rest are continuing to work.

Thousands have reportedly applied for unemployment benefits amid the financial uncertainty.

One major airport, Miami International, will close an entire terminal this weekend because so many security staff have called in sick.
. . .

Work without pay? (H*** Nooooooooo..!) Or how many screw-ups are to be expected because the people supposedly controlling the top tiers won't budge on their political "issues"...? This is lunacy... and it seems to be getting worse the more the DEMs go against the Republicans in USA politics. More than just the top tiers are being affected. This is called DOMINO EFFECT, which trickles down to us little people at the bottom feeders.

Volunteers are filling in, where paid workers aren't, can't or won't.

Regarding air travel, some people who actually frequently fly out there, were wondering how this whole situation is going to affect the airports, especially the AIR TRAFFIC controllers. Federal pay? or state pay wages? Most USA airports are federally operated, by the FAA (agency). Thus, (NO) Federal gov't pay wages during the "Shut-down".

"...Oh, it's only a few areas of the gov't NOT working"... Really? Seems a whole LOT more than just a few this time around... and many of those "few" seem to working paycheck to paycheck, which is intolerable when NOTHING comes in to pay the bills, which the collection agencies start processing their "collection" cases..! Not everyone working in "federal" jobs is wealthy enough to "fall back" on a *reserved* savings account... from what I've heard or read "via the grapevine," many of those accounts got severely depleted during President Obama's term years...

Just another DEM/Republican blockade in the governing process. Typical..! This sort of nonsense happened every time the DEMS got back into control in the gov't when my dad worked there. My family was one of the underlings caught in the cross-hairs of USA political and $$$ bureaucracy. Been there, done that... it HURTS in more ways than just the financial end...

[SoulReaver]

This is lunacy...

correct

and it seems to be getting worse the more the DEMs go against the Republicans in USA politics.

you saying it's the Dems who shut down the government?
this is lunacy

[SGalisa]

correct
you saying it's the Dems who shut down the government?
this is lunacy

I'm saying BOTH sides ARE & HAVE shut it down. TOP tiers in control (TPTB) are controlling the entire scale of this situation.
THEY DO NOT CARE. PERIOD. THEY have their own supplies in plenty, and then some!

(Pelosi and Schumer at the top deciding the fate of us USAmericans and --since Trump won't budge either on his "choice"-- Trump being pushed into a corner to make a *reasonable* (and hopefully rational) decision and SOON... to decide the FATE of our future meals... crisis?? ..."in the eyes of the beholder"...)

I am also (trying to) looking at this as an observer... even tho stuck as a participant receiver of the food and other industries being affected.

And yes, sadly, I have foreseen this situation happening ages ago... just didn't know the circumstances to what the details might be or when it would happen, etc... and yeah, it just might be "prophetically" noted in the Bible, but NOT the way some people imagined a "famine" might occur.

IMPORTANT *agricultural* info for everyone....!
PLEASE pay attention before *this turning into a crisis situation* gets REALLY ugly....!

More: US government shutdown (Video at link below... approximately 1 min. 32 sec. long)

"US shutdown: 'I don't need a wall, I want money to plant crops'"
BBC News, 11 Jan 2019

Department of Agriculture feeds the farmers.
Apparently, this happens on an *as-needed* basis when crops are to be grown..? Who gets to be farmers... and who doesn't... who gets the money to buy fertilizer supplies, etc., AND seeds... was that one of the reasons why some crops NO longer can provide seeds? It HAS to come from the gov't dividing it out to whomever they (gov't) decides is on their good (Santa Claus *nice*) list...?!

As I noted before, the DOMINO EFFECT, down to us little people at the bottom feeders is about to hit the entire USA population(s)... FOOD wise. Anyone who didn't squirrel away before, well, might be too late. Unless the USA gov't gets its *act* together and starts doing things the decent and proper way. Fat chance, but... just saying before the SHTF on an even BIGGER scale, than the current moment.

And for those who can't squirrel away (lack of financial funds AND space!)... hoping not to say "hello Venuzeula, (et.al)... we feel your *pain*..!"

Remember, all those roadblocking at the top tiers have reserves to fall back upon and probably bunkers with plenty of comfy food & shelter supplies to hide out in. The rest of us...DO NOT. Sad true FACT of LIFE. :*(

[Womble]

You really need to get smacked upside the head with a history book. If Enterprise, Saratoga and Lexington had been in Pearl, we might be very well be speaking German these days.

No. At most, the USA and Britain would have lost their Asian colonies sooner, and the war in Europe would have lasted longer.

The reason Japan struck when it struck was the 1940 Two-Ocean Navy act which authorized adding 250 new vessels to the US Navy. The USA began building 18 aircraft carriers, 7 battleships, 30+ cruisers, 40 + submarines, over a hundred destroyers and a whopping 15 000 aircraft. Japan stood to lose naval dominance within 2-3 years, and they made a desperate move in the hope of undermining American morale through the shock of a devastating defeat, and to conquer the Philippines fast. They actually knew that the American aircraft carriers weren't in the harbor, but felt that it was their only chance for a shock-and-awe quick win. Once it became clear that the win wasn't quick and the USA was putting its economy on war footing, Japan was in the same predicament as Nazi Germany. They couldn't even dream of matching the USA industrial capacity, and they depended on imported oil and metal, whereas the Americans were sitting on enormous domestic supply of every vital war resource except rubber (and their rubber supply in South America was mostly out of reach of Japanese or German submarines), plus they had resource-rich Australia which was beyond Japan's ability to conquer.

In the Eastern front, the American entry into the war happened after Germany was defeated at Stalingrad, which pretty much showed that German superiority was over and done with. Operation Husky (invasion of Sicily) arguably contributed more than the D-Day to Germany's defeat as it forced Hitler to abandon Operation Citadel, turning the Kursk bulge battle from a Pyrrhic victory into a full-on German defeat.

(The Kursk bulge battle was the biggest tank battle in history. The Russians lost 12 men for every killed German, 5 tanks for every destroyed German tank and 2 warplanes for every German plane they shot down - but the Russians had the numbers to replace their losses, especially tanks as they were smart enough to upgrade the T-34 with which they began the war instead of slowing down production for completely new superior models the way the Germans did with the Tiger and Panther. German Tiger or Panther could kill a T-34-85 from 2km at any angle while the Russian tank could kill the Tiger only with a side hit from under 800m and a Panther only with a direct hit on the turret, but the Russians churned out 1300 T-34 per month while the Germans couldn't manufacture even a tenth of that (they've managed to produce around 8500 Tigers and Panthers combined during the entire war while the Soviets made 22500 of T-34 alone. Plus the Russians were in a habit of putting monstrous 152mm guns on obsolete KV tank chassis, producing cheap and cheerful Su-152 Beastkiller. That thing didn't even need AP shells because the massive HE blast would rip off tank turrets at any range or kill the crew inside the tank from the sheer force of impact regardless of whether or not armor was penetrated.)

[Annoyed]

so 3 ships can somehow make a yuge difference in a country like the US? you really gonna have to explain how this works

unless you're talking about those three ships

Depends which 3 ships you're talking about. And you're not so far off the mark with the Federation ships. New technology. Carriers were the hot ticket in military capability at the time. If Japan had gotten those 3 carriers, we wouldn't have been able to stop them at Midway and other places in the Pacific. They could have established bases close to the west coast, allowing them to strike our shipyards and manufacturing infrastructure. That industrial capacity was one of the key elements of the allies' victory in the war.

[Gatefan1976]

yes it would've indeed lasted longer than dropping a couple of nukes

and considering the fanaticism present in a lot of the Japanese people at the time it probably would've been an uphill fight proverbially speaking

Sounds like you are trying to justify an unjust action in a war.
Is expediency enough to justify what we (the allies) did?
Have a good, HARD look into Japanese sentiment and military power and decision making before you answer that MG, please.

[aretood2]

Puh-lease. You're comparing the northern border to the southern border?
You love statistics. Look these up. How many illegals have entered the country from each border?

The problem on the southern border is several orders of magnitude high than that on the northern border.
How many caravans from Canada have been making their way into the US?

Yet it's not Mexico that is the transit point for terrorists and suspected terrorists, it's Canada. The most Caravan will do is take your job. Illegal crossings from Canada could blow up your workplace or shot up an entire gay club. But for some reason people legally coming to the US border asking for asylum using legal means is the greater threat?

And yes, I do love evidence as opposed to your "Feels" that you base your opinions on.

Also, it would seem that some folks trying to come into the US from Mexico are using Canada as a waypoint.

They aren't all from Mexico though, but that is irrelevant to the point. Illegal crossings have been increasing dramatically from Canada to the US for years now. Same thing with illegal crossings from the US to Canada.

You really need to get smacked upside the head with a history book. If Enterprise, Saratoga and Lexington had been in Pearl, we might be very well be speaking German these days.

Russian, actually. We'd be speaking Russian. I say that hyperbolically (If that's the right word).

First politician in 40+ years that wanted to do something effective.

Okay, you have to help me understand this. How is dramatic decreases in illegal immigration across the southern border in the past two decades not the result of effective action?

Depends which 3 ships you're talking about. And you're not so far off the mark with the Federation ships. New technology. Carriers were the hot ticket in military capability at the time. If Japan had gotten those 3 carriers, we wouldn't have been able to stop them at Midway and other places in the Pacific. They could have established bases close to the west coast, allowing them to strike our shipyards and manufacturing infrastructure. That industrial capacity was one of the key elements of the allies' victory in the war.

At most, Japan could have invaded Midway and used it as a base to launch periodic attacks on Hawaii and harass shipping to and from Hawaii making it extremely hard to use it as a base of operations for waging war. It may have delayed Pacific campaigns by a few more months till a year until other Carriers came online and arrived to retake Midway, which would inevitably happen.

However the war in Europe would not have changed much. FDR would still have pushed for attacking Hitler and passed it off as allowing the UK to reroute its naval forces to the Pacific to help out there. The Germans were already retreating in the Eastern front incurring massive casualties and loosing equipment faster than they could replace it. Eventually the Germans would have to reroute units from Western Europe to the East as the USSR began invading Poland exposing themselves to an inevitable D-Day.

They had no ability to manufacture or fuel any of their "wonder weapons" in any significant rate that would change any battle and were decades away from Nuclear bombs. Most of their Units still relied on horses just to give you an idea on how bad their ability to manufacture war material was. When Communist Russia can out produce you, you know it's bad. So even a later D-Day would not help them much. Operation Torch just curb stomped them, and would do so in this "alternative timeline". The Italians were effectively useless and the Germans wouldn't (and weren't) able to replace any losses.

What might have changed is that more of Germany and Europe would have been behind the Iron Curtain and we could possibly see the Red Army in Japan and a unified communist Korea. But that, and a larger European Communist bloc, is the worst case scenario.

The Nazis and their allies lost because they bit off more than they could ever hope to chew and made poor decisions because their nationalist ideologies clouded their judgement. Their unwillingness to think more than a few moves ahead doomed them to short sighted paths fueled by their confidence in their "racial superiority" and blinded them to their industrial inferiority. The Germans especially were "stupid" enough to kill off or chase away their smartest scientists, and artificially shrank their workforce and military aged demographic in the name of racial purity. Their "Germany/Japan/Italy" first economy was reliant on Government spending and favoritism and protectionism which prevented them from having a stable self sustaining economy. The fact was that the only thing preventing economic collapse was the war itself and even that was starting to burn out by the time the Russians showed Germany who truly was the "superior" force at Stalingrad.

[Gatefan1976]

No. At most, the USA and Britain would have lost their Asian colonies sooner, and the war in Europe would have lasted longer.

Agreed.

The reason Japan struck when it struck was the 1940 Two-Ocean Navy act which authorized adding 250 new vessels to the US Navy. The USA began building 18 aircraft carriers, 7 battleships, 30+ cruisers, 40 + submarines, over a hundred destroyers and a whopping 15 000 aircraft. Japan stood to lose naval dominance within 2-3 years, and they made a desperate move in the hope of undermining American morale through the shock of a devastating defeat, and to conquer the Philippines fast. They actually knew that the American aircraft carriers weren't in the harbor, but felt that it was their only chance for a shock-and-awe quick win. Once it became clear that the win wasn't quick and the USA was putting its economy on war footing, Japan was in the same predicament as Nazi Germany. They couldn't even dream of matching the USA industrial capacity, and they depended on imported oil and metal, whereas the Americans were sitting on enormous domestic supply of every vital war resource except rubber (and their rubber supply in South America was mostly out of reach of Japanese or German submarines), plus they had resource-rich Australia which was beyond Japan's ability to conquer.

I wonder if instead of Pearl Harbour they directly invaded us, weather the US would have lost enough strategic positioning to have a serious effect. Japan -could- have subjugated vast swathes of the northern territories of Australia with lower losses, and they would not have brought the US directly into the war, and had access to those resources.

In the Eastern front, the American entry into the war happened after Germany was defeated at Stalingrad, which pretty much showed that German superiority was over and done with. Operation Husky (invasion of Sicily) arguably contributed more than the D-Day to Germany's defeat as it forced Hitler to abandon Operation Citadel, turning the Kursk bulge battle from a Pyrrhic victory into a full-on German defeat.

Come on man, you know you are not supposed to talk about places where enemies or allies outshone the Yanks, they never happened

[SoulReaver]

If Japan had gotten those 3 carriers, we wouldn't have been able to stop them at Midway and other places in the Pacific.

That industrial capacity was one of the key elements of the allies' victory in the war.

the same industrial capacity that would've allowed the US to replace those 3 carriers (and then some) in a snap?

BOTH sides

lol

[Chaka-Z0]

the same industrial capacity that would've allowed the US to replace those 3 carriers (and then some) in a snap?

lol

Just to be clear, the US was producing one battleship a day, not one aircraft carrier a day. Had the Japs kept harassing the US factories for ship and oil targets, It would've crippled the US Armada significantly potentially exposing the US-UK shipping route to Japs control.

But you're fooling yourself if you think pearl was a surprise. The ULTRA network was already a well oiled machine in NYC and Enigma was broken in July. FDR needed this to turn public opinion to his favor. Until then the US only waged secret warfare.

Now. I don't think that even if Japan made every best call would've changed anything. Even under siege the US would prevail eventually. As many said, operation Barbarossa was really the trigger of Hitler's defeat. A vanity war, just like the Wall.

[Womble]

[COLOR="#000080"]The Germans especially were "stupid" enough to kill off or chase away their smartest scientists, and artificially shrank their workforce and military aged demographic in the name of racial purity.

Oh yes. A whopping 15% of all of Germany's physicists - among them the best Germany had. Einstein, Schrödinger, Franck, Szilard, Felix Bloch. Instant 65% decline in scientific output in the field of physics. And gave the Americans the key researchers for the Manhattan project.

They also chased other European scientists into the arms of the Allies. Niels Bohr, John von Neumann, Joseph Rotblat, even Enrico Fermi (his wife was Jewish). The most hilarious irony was the exile of George Kistiakowsky, the explosives expert who invented HMX, perfected the manufacture of shaped charges in the USA and ultimately created nuclear bomb detonators. That guy definitely got back at Hitler.

As the Talmud says, the work of the righteous is done by others.