The Political Discussion Thread

[jmoz]

That's just a bureaucratic excuse. Only time that would become an issue is when there are cases or situations that would result in that kind of a conflict of interest, if there was an investigation into some wrongdoing by some military personnel. And during those sensitive situations the chief can just assign his own men that would do an impartial job to avoid that conflict of interest.

[mad_gater]

I really don't know...on one hand I see LOS's argument that the military should solely be used under the jurisdiction of national defense...on the other hand though I can see where how a little assistance from soldiers who've got nothing better going on at the moment could help the police better fight organized crime

I say just round up all the mafiosos....put them all in one area....and nuke them to kingdom come.......

[s09119]

Well it's rather a moot point since we don't have too many idle military personnel these days...

[mad_gater]

Well it's rather a moot point since we don't have too many idle military personnel these days...

true

[Womble]

Should idle armed forces be used to police the streets and help fight organized crime?

They can't be used that way. They have neither the training nor the equipment required. Soldiers can be given riot control training (in today's circumstances, they SHOULD have some) and used as emergency measure during mass riots. The military's logistical infrastructure can be- and often is- used for disaster relief. But fighting crime is not about overpowering the criminals, it's about enforcing the law, about investigating, about knowing how to build a case so that the guy you're arresting would get convicted in court rather than released right back home. Fighting organized crime is about tracking money transfers, uncovering connections between people and companies, etc.- it's largely intelligence work, which is why even regular police usually doesn't suffice and institutions like the FBI are necessary. "Idle" army units can't be trained for that kind of activity in a hurry.

[jmoz]

government sponsored training. They don't have to be trained in a hurry.

[Womble]

government sponsored training. They don't have to be trained in a hurry.

Uh, you're talking about army units. Even during the "idle" time they have plenty of duties, first and foremost keeping their training up. Anything else you saddle them with will be a "spare time activity" for them, lower in priority than their main duties. You can't give them all law degrees, you can't put them through an FBI Academy course that takes 20 weeks of full-time, live-in training; there isn't enough time in a day. You can't break up the unit and restructure it for police duties or do anything else that would interfere with the unit's primary purpose. It's just not possible.

[Rickington]

I say just round up all the mafiosos....put them all in one area....and nuke them to kingdom come.......

There's only one little problem with that.

It's called due process.

[Rudy Pena]

No. The military should never act as police. Former members of the military can become police officers, but if you're still part of the military, no.

I say yes. There are many service members who are reserve or national guard and are in local law enforcement where they live.

[mad_gater]

I say yes. There are many service members who are reserve or national guard and are in local law enforcement where they live.

that works......although it means that if their reserve unit is activated they'd have to drop whatever jobs they have temporarily.....and most jobs are nice to their reservists and keep their jobs open until their mission is done

[lordofseas]

I say yes. There are many service members who are reserve or national guard and are in local law enforcement where they live.

National Guards are inherently playing a part as a security force.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

Should idle armed forces be used to police the streets and help fight organized crime?

No, no, christ no. I say this as a member of the military. The military is completely different in it's training, equipment and tactics from Law enforcement, the entire mindset is different. Unless you have implemented martial law that's simply not the role the military is designed for.

The military is trained simply to eliminate threats, you identify someone as a threat, or even sometimes as a possible threat, you take them out, no warnings, no hands up, just bang and their gone. In Iraq if a vehicle doesn't stop at a checkpoint, you opened up with everything. Didn't matter if it had a pregnant women in the car and the husband was trying to get her to the hospital, or whatever, it's a tragedy but you will open up on the next car that tries it as well, because it is an environment where that car could be, and in many cases was, a suicide bomber rushing up to the checkpoint to blow it up.

There's an infamous incident during the 1992 Los Angeles Riots when the National Guard and the Marines were called in to help police things. Police and Marines were working to secure an area and the police told the Marines to cover them. They were rather surprised when the Marines then proceeded to open up on all the surrounding buildings, putting hundreds of rounds of suppressive fire on them. The Police's definition of cover was scan the area for threats, the Marines, and most militaries definition of cover, is to start putting lots of rounds down range. This illustrates the difference, in the military you are trained to kill the enemy, deadly force is not the last resort as with the police it is your main tool, and unless the enemy is hands up, weapons down screaming don't kill me you shoot them. As a finale I'll leave this video of British Army bayonet training here. It's from the 80's but it remains the same type of training today. I did training like this. Now a mindset of a soldier screaming KILL!!! is very useful on the battlefield, however this is not the people you want policing your streets.

Unless an area has essentially become a conflict zone and the police are incapable of dealing with the violence, then the military should be kept out of law enforcement, because they deal with another type of situation entirely.

[Rudy Pena]

Even with our Candances have to do killing or fighting or something.

[The Mighty 6 platoon]

Even with our Candances have to do killing or fighting or something.

Exactly. This battle footage from Ross Kemp in Afghanistan shows what a modern battle looks like. Rather different from a Law Enforcing operation. You've got thousands of rounds of 5.56, 7.62 and 50.cal going down range, plus mortar rounds, Javelin missiles, strafing runs and airstrikes.

Suppression is key to modern warfare, when you come under contact you put down as many rounds as you can to keep their heads down. It takes the U.S military 250,000 rounds to kill one enemy. This isn't an abnormal figure, it's normal, same for other militaries such as us Brits, because most of the rounds you fire are actually just to keep the enemies heads down. This is what the military trains for, constantly seeking to improve its skills. Now unless you want your neighbourhood to descend into a warzone, you do not have the military policing it, unless it already is a warzone. Normal people don't want it, and soldiers sure as hell wouldn't want the ****storm that would occur every time they reacted to incoming fire or a possible threat and put lots of rounds down range in reaction.

[xxxevilgrinxxx]

Should idle armed forces be used to police the streets and help fight organized crime?

I don't think it's a good idea because soldiers and detectives are trained to do entirely different things with entirely different outcomes. Crime requires a completely different skillset, a different mindset, than war, and mixing the two serves neither crimefighting nor warfare. In fact, in instances where police have become more militarized (the "war on drugs" for example), it's led to a situation where the opposite side also becomes more militarized. In the long run, it becomes an end-run around justice itself. Declare "war" on something, and throw out any notion of justice. It becomes armies facing each other, rather than securing evidence that has to stand up in court. Dangerous mix.