The Political Discussion Thread

[SoulReaver]

I heard the Rocket Man brought his own toilet for the trip.

so he's a north-korean defecator ??

[Chaka-Z0]

so he's a north-korean defecator ??

You should know that according to Gov. Official Statements in NK, Ding-Dong Un does NOT sh*t.

[Coco Pops]

To put this summit into context "it was a nothingburger" I did some research

So let's see to put this new deal Tribblehead did into context

1985: North Korea signs Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty

1992: North Korea signs historic agreement to halt nuclear program! (#1)

1994: North Korea signs historic agreement to halt nuclear program! (#2)

1999: North Korea signs historic agreement to end missile tests

2000: North Korea signs historic agreement to reunify Korea

2005: North Korea declares support for "denuclearization" of Korean peninsula

2005: North Korea signs historic agreement to halt nuclear program and "denuclearize" (#3)

2006: North Korea declares support for "denuclearization" of Korean peninsula

2006: North Korea again support for "denuclearization" of Korean peninsula

2007: North Korea signs historic agreement to halt nuclear program! (#4)

2007: North and South Korea sign agreement on reunification

2010: North Korea commits to ending Korean War

2010: North Korea announces commitment to "denuclearize"

2010: North Korea again announces commitment to "denuclearize"

2011: North Korea announces plan to halt nuclear and missile tests

2012: North Korea announces halt to nuclear program

2015: North Korea offers to halt nuclear tests

2016: North Korea again announces support for "denuclearization"

2018: North Korea halts nuclear tests after collapse of test site, announces support for "denuclearization"

[Womble]

It's ENTIRELY relevant, even to your "question"

Your point is that it made Iran a "regional power" again, well, given that only ONE US ally seemed to be happy about the end of US involvement in the Iran deal, the one that happens to be in the region, what does that say about the particular ally, or the rest of the allies involved in the deal?

Actually, pretty much all USA allies who are in the region had a problem with Iran deal and are pretty satisfied that it's over. Most of them speak Arabic. The USA allies who want the Iran deal to remain are the ones who won't have to live with its consequences but might profit from trade with Iran.

Gulf Arab allies hail triumph after U.S. quits Iran deal

Saudi Arabia says backs U.S. decision to withdraw from Iran nuclear deal

Nice try though. You're getting the hang of that slander thing.

[thekillman]

A journey of 100 miles starts with the first step.
I think the important thing at this point is that it concluded with neither side walking away angry.

That bar is so low, i saw an ant trip over it.

Previous presidents and negotiators got more out of NK with less fanfare.

[Gatefan1976]

Actually, pretty much all USA allies who are in the region had a problem with Iran deal and are pretty satisfied that it's over. Most of them speak Arabic. The USA allies who want the Iran deal to remain are the ones who won't have to live with its consequences but might profit from trade with Iran.

Gulf Arab allies hail triumph after U.S. quits Iran deal

Saudi Arabia says backs U.S. decision to withdraw from Iran nuclear deal

Nice try though. You're getting the hang of that slander thing.

you are a good teacher...……………...

[aretood2]

Maybe in PA. In NY, the education unions are the most powerful.

Not Pennsylvania's problem? I subscribe to a policy of Pennsylvania first

Then why is so much of the manufacturing that is still required moved outside the US? If Canada and Mexico didn't stand to lose so much, why are they complaining so loudly? If they weren't riding the gravy train as much as they are, they wouldn't be objecting so strongly.

Take a look at: http://kogodbusiness.com/auto-index/

Even some of the US brands have less than 50% of their content made domestically.

I don't really think you are dumb. So think about it. If automation is cheaper than US labor, then why still go to other countries? Maybe because it's still even cheaper than automation? The net result is the same, manufacturing jobs decrease in the US outsourcing or none....except in prices, prices still stay low.

This problem has been rampant long before Trump got into politics.

Remember Ross Perot, in 1992? I think it was, and his "giant sucking sound" as NAFTA siphoned jobs off to other nations?

For the billionth time. US manufacturing has increased since. Automation is what cost manufacturing jobs which only counts for a small minority of the job market. There was no "giant sucking sound". Parrot was an economic idiot and it is a sad thing when grown adults reference his inane ramblings.

And as far as it "not being a perfect world", then why should we be obligated to have lower tarrifs anbd barriers than other nations do for our products?

Because it benefits us? That's like saying why should I pay Wal-mart for my new sweater when Wal-mart doesn't buy anything from me.

If the EU or Germany wants to impose a 10% tariff on US cars, why shouldn't we impose the same tariff on theirs? It's " not fair" ?

And what tariffs does the US have for EU goods? How do American cars sell there? What are the price differentials between US and EU cars? How does the total trade, not just completed goods but capital and inputs factor into the trade balance?

Should EU lower tariffs? Well, sure. But raising 25% tariffs on the EU because somehow they constitute a national security risk to the US is...idiotic at best.

Because it's not relevant. I'm not saying that Obama made Iran America's enemy, I'm saying that Obama wentout of his way to engineer American enemy's reemergence as a regional power, to the detriment of many of America's allies. It does not require a pointless historical review of when and how Iran became a belligerent theocratic autocracy.

While Trump is dissing our allies, enacting ridiculous tariffs, complaining about their leaders while brown nosing Russia and giving the paragon of east Asian democracy, peace, and freedom nothing but compliments and snubbing our asian democratic allies in the process.

Like I said before. Trump may be good for you, but I am afraid that in this Israel has massive tunnel vision. He is a hot mess for us, his actual people. He is our president. Not your prime minister.

[SoulReaver]

You should know that according to Gov. Official Statements in NK, Ding-Dong Un does NOT sh*t.

neither does King Don

that's why they're both full of crap

[Annoyed]

Not Pennsylvania's problem? I subscribe to a policy of Pennsylvania first

A wise policy. Apparently, many people in the industrial midwest in typical Democrat strongholds do as well. Which is why Trump won those states.

I don't really think you are dumb. So think about it. If automation is cheaper than US labor, then why still go to other countries? Maybe because it's still even cheaper than automation? The net result is the same, manufacturing jobs decrease in the US outsourcing or none....except in prices, prices still stay low.

Which benefits those on the upper end of the scale who can afford to buy cars these days. Not so good for the hourly wage earner who is making $10 bucks an hour in some retail or crap job after his living-wage job was sent overseas or automated. We probably can't stop automation, but we damned well can stop shipping jobs out of the country.
Have you priced out a decent car or truck these days? 30K+ in most cases.

Haven't you noticed who supports the status quo and who supports protectionism? In most cases, the well-off are happy with the way it is now, and the lower classes support protectionism. That's not an accident, it's the effect of who does well under which system.

And what tariffs does the US have for EU goods? How do American cars sell there? What are the price differentials between US and EU cars? How does the total trade, not just completed goods but capital and inputs factor into the trade balance?

As far as the tariffs go, didn't the article I mentioned say the US charges 2.5% vs the EU's 10%?

Should EU lower tariffs? Well, sure. But raising 25% tariffs on the EU because somehow they constitute a national security risk to the US is...idiotic at best.

Well, then we'll wait until AFTER the EU (or any other nation) removes their tariffs on US products. Myself, I think we have a long wait.

And there is a legitimate "national security" interest here. Suppose we do nothing on Steel, and our domestic producers go out of business because they can't compete on the far from level playing field and in particular, nations outright dumping steel into our markets. And then a conventional war breaks out. We're kinda screwed if we no longer have the manufacturing infrastructure to build ships, tanks and other implements of war, aren't we?

[jelgate]

Still living in ignorance about the European Union I see. Start reading that book. You might want to read the economy section

[aretood2]

Which benefits those on the upper end of the scale who can afford to buy cars these days. Not so good for the hourly wage earner who is making $10 bucks an hour in some retail or crap job after his living-wage job was sent overseas or automated. We probably can't stop automation, but we damned well can stop shipping jobs out of the country.
Have you priced out a decent car or truck these days? 30K+ in most cases.

Retail isn't the only blue collar alternative...In any event, I recently purchased a 2017 Cruz for 20K. My dad, with farm work mind you, purchased a brand new truck over a year ago (I think it was around 25K) and is just about finished with his payments. Hard work, living within one's means, avoiding vices, and saving up money opens a lot of doors. I really have no need for a 30K car when there are plenty of affordable nice cars out there.

Don't forget, my family came here in rags and got no government assistance. Don't lecture me about "working stiffs".

Haven't you noticed who supports the status quo and who supports protectionism? In most cases, the well-off are happy with the way it is now, and the lower classes support protectionism. That's not an accident, it's the effect of who does well under which system.

This is...you can understand that this is something Soul could have easily posted...

As far as the tariffs go, didn't the article I mentioned say the US charges 2.5% vs the EU's 10%?

First, the 10% has to do with a chicken tariff war the US started with the EU a while back. That said, guess what Tariff Mexico gets for its cars in the EU? 0%. That's because they signed a free trade agreement with the EU. This is why car companies want to open factories in Mexico. Not to send cars to the US. But to send cars to the EU, South America, Australia and so on. So even if Trump tariffs Mexico, their factories will still continue to export. Just not to the US...and a lower supply means a higher price...weren't you complaining about car prices? You realise that protectionism would only increase that, right?

The US doesn't have anywhere near the level of free trade agreements that Mexico has. That means Mexican exports pay less tariffs than our own exports. So why is it that Mexico can negotiate a 0% car tariff with the EU but the US can't? That's my counter question.

Well, then we'll wait until AFTER the EU (or any other nation) removes their tariffs on US products. Myself, I think we have a long wait.

Well...they did that with Mexico...It's not a far fetched thing. The US just has to be willing to drop protectionism. It's a case of "I'll show you mine if you show me yours".

And there is a legitimate "national security" interest here. Suppose we do nothing on Steel, and our domestic producers go out of business because they can't compete on the far from level playing field and in particular, nations outright dumping steel into our markets. And then a conventional war breaks out. We're kinda screwed if we no longer have the manufacturing infrastructure to build ships, tanks and other implements of war, aren't we?

Because we will got to war against NATO? Your scenario is very unrealistic, almost fantastical in nature. The only way that will ever play out is if the US pulls a Nazi German/Imperial Japanese/Fascist Italian move and goes to war with everyone else.

To put it simply, that's not how it works. Steel imports or domestic production don't affect manufacturing in that way. It would if the imports stop. But why would they stop? Our sources of steel are Mexico, Canada, and the EU. China can be cut out if we focus on our allies...and you know...keep our allies. The US can't do it alone, not if you want prices to stay low and supply to stay high.

Also, in an advanced economy like ours...where would the workers for the steel industry come from? You don't like legal immigration because we don't have the fantastical "0%" unemployment rate.

[Annoyed]

Retail isn't the only blue collar alternative...In any event, I recently purchased a 2017 Cruz for 20K. My dad, with farm work mind you, purchased a brand new truck over a year ago (I think it was around 25K) and is just about finished with his payments. Hard work, living within one's means, avoiding vices, and saving up money opens a lot of doors. I really have no need for a 30K car when there are plenty of affordable nice cars out there.

Don't forget, my family came here in rags and got no government assistance. Don't lecture me about "working stiffs".



This is...you can understand that this is something Soul could have easily posted...



First, the 10% has to do with a chicken tariff war the US started with the EU a while back. That said, guess what Tariff Mexico gets for its cars in the EU? 0%. That's because they signed a free trade agreement with the EU. This is why car companies want to open factories in Mexico. Not to send cars to the US. But to send cars to the EU, South America, Australia and so on. So even if Trump tariffs Mexico, their factories will still continue to export. Just not to the US...and a lower supply means a higher price...weren't you complaining about car prices? You realise that protectionism would only increase that, right?

The US doesn't have anywhere near the level of free trade agreements that Mexico has. That means Mexican exports pay less tariffs than our own exports. So why is it that Mexico can negotiate a 0% car tariff with the EU but the US can't? That's my counter question.



Well...they did that with Mexico...It's not a far fetched thing. The US just has to be willing to drop protectionism. It's a case of "I'll show you mine if you show me yours".



Because we will got to war against NATO? Your scenario is very unrealistic, almost fantastical in nature. The only way that will ever play out is if the US pulls a Nazi German/Imperial Japanese/Fascist Italian move and goes to war with everyone else.

To put it simply, that's not how it works. Steel imports or domestic production don't affect manufacturing in that way. It would if the imports stop. But why would they stop? Our sources of steel are Mexico, Canada, and the EU. China can be cut out if we focus on our allies...and you know...keep our allies. The US can't do it alone, not if you want prices to stay low and supply to stay high.

Also, in an advanced economy like ours...where would the workers for the steel industry come from? You don't like legal immigration because we don't have the fantastical "0%" unemployment rate.

Maybe I'll take the rest of that apart another day, but I'm going to bed so I'll just make a quick comment now..
In wartime, you have no friends. You can't possibly predict what might happen in the future that might result in the US being attacked, by currently known enemies or by current "friends".

Its really stupid to set your self up so that you have to depend on others for your needs when it comes to national defense.

Need I remind you that it was the US's manufacturing might that saved the worlds bacon in WWII just as much as it was our weapons and soldiers? If the U.S. hadn't provided munitions, military hardware, food and ships to carry it all, Great Britain would have been speaking German before Japan ever drew us into it militarily at the end of 1941.

[Womble]

Maybe I'll take the rest of that apart another day, but I'm going to bed so I'll just make a quick comment now..
In wartime, you have no friends. You can't possibly predict what might happen in the future that might result in the US being attacked, by currently known enemies or by current "friends".

The 4 top exporters of steel to the USA are Canada, Brazil, Mexico and South Korea. Which of them do you expect in the foreseeable future to become America's warring enemies?

Need I remind you that it was the US's manufacturing might that saved the worlds bacon in WWII just as much as it was our weapons and soldiers? If the U.S. hadn't provided munitions, military hardware, food and ships to carry it all, Great Britain would have been speaking German before Japan ever drew us into it militarily at the end of 1941.

At which point you are contradicting yourself. No friends in wartime? You have just given a prime example of the importance of having friends during wartime. Even the odious USSR had Britain and USA supply it, at great risk to their own seamen and pilots, with everything from corned beef to tanks and warplanes to the tune of $700 billion in modern-day dollars. Having friends in wartime is smart policy, and alienating your friends isn't.

[Annoyed]

The 4 top exporters of steel to the USA are Canada, Brazil, Mexico and South Korea. Which of them do you expect in the foreseeable future to become America's warring enemies?


At which point you are contradicting yourself. No friends in wartime? You have just given a prime example of the importance of having friends during wartime. Even the odious USSR had Britain and USA supply it, at great risk to their own seamen and pilots, with everything from corned beef to tanks and warplanes to the tune of $700 billion in modern-day dollars. Having friends in wartime is smart policy, and alienating your friends isn't.

Well, consider Canada & Mexico. If we cease to allow them to take advantage of the unfair trade advantages they currently enjoy under NAFTA (which we should do), I can see them not wishing to supply us with steel if the shiznit hits the fan somewhere in the world. Or do you maintain that they should remain "friends" with us only if we continue to allow them to take advantage of us?

Regarding WWII; yes the Allies stood fast with each other. But do many people doubt that Germany would have turned on Italy and Japan if the war had gone well for them?.

War is unpredictable at best, and it is foolish to engage in trade policies which undercut your ability to wage war.

[Cleve]

F'get th' whyles, myte... Sayve th' SHAIRKS!