The Political Discussion Thread

[Annoyed]

http://www.kentucky.com/news/local/n...210676214.html

Eddie Devine voted for President Donald Trump because he thought he would be good for American business. Now, he says, the Trump administration’s restrictions on seasonal foreign labor may put him out of business.

“I feel like I’ve been tricked by the devil,” said Devine, owner of Harrodsburg-based Devine Creations Landscaping. “I feel so stupid.”

Devine says it has been years since he could find enough dependable, drug-free American workers for his $12-an-hour jobs mowing and tending landscapes for cemeteries, shopping centers and apartment complexes across Central Kentucky.

So for years he has hired 20 seasonal workers, mostly from Guatemala, through the U.S. Labor Department’s H2-B “guest worker” program. Importing these workers for a few months cost him an additional $18,000 in fees and expenses beyond their wages, which must be the same as he pays American workers. But that’s the only way he could serve his customers.

Well, then he'll have to offer higher wages, won't he? Or, if he does that and no one will pay the higher rates that the higher wages require, perhaps his service isn't valuable enough that people will pay for it? Perhaps the cemeteries, shopping centers and apartment complexes will have to hire someone directly to do those jobs?

[aretood2]

Well, then he'll have to offer higher wages, won't he? Or, if he does that and no one will pay the higher rates that the higher wages require, perhaps his service isn't valuable enough that people will pay for it? Perhaps the cemeteries, shopping centers and apartment complexes will have to hire someone directly to do those jobs?

Are you serious? So you don't think landscaping is a demanded service? Let me be clear, I am speaking to the idea you are expressing. That is an incredibly stupid thing to think. By that logic, cars aren't a demanded product since car companies can't offer an affordable wage and thus have to resort to outsourcing. Same thing with restaurant waiters. I guess full service eateries aren't a demanded service either since no normal restaurant would be able to afford those wages.

This is why I say you are not anti-illegal immigration. You are anti-immigration period. For the type of work he is offering, $17 and hour with benefits is actually quite a generous salary. And you miss the point. He is offering high wages, if I had the choice to work in McDonald's and for that guy, I'd pick that guy 6 ways to Sunday.

[Annoyed]

Are you serious? So you don't think landscaping is a demanded service? Let me be clear, I am speaking to the idea you are expressing. That is an incredibly stupid thing to think. By that logic, cars aren't a demanded product since car companies can't offer an affordable wage and thus have to resort to outsourcing. Same thing with restaurant waiters. I guess full service eateries aren't a demanded service either since no normal restaurant would be able to afford those wages.

This is why I say you are not anti-illegal immigration. You are anti-immigration period. For the type of work he is offering, $17 and hour with benefits is actually quite a generous salary. And you miss the point. He is offering high wages, if I had the choice to work in McDonald's and for that guy, I'd pick that guy 6 ways to Sunday.

If the guy who owns the business has to double his wage costs to get people to work for him, he will have to double his prices (or make cuts elsewhere).
Suppose he's charging his customer $1000/season for basic lawn cutting/maint. Now he has to charge $2000. His customer might decide that at that price, it's better to buy a lawnmower and a weedeater and add lawn care to his janitorial staff's duties, or hire someone directly, in either case, doing the job himself 'cause while it's worth it at $1000, it's not worth it at 2K.
Same thing with the fast food joint. Guy driving home from work might think it's worth $20 buck for a bag of burgers to feed the kids and not have to cook, he might not think its worth it at $40 bucks for the bag.

Full service restaurants are a different animal completely because of the lower wages and tipping, which introduce other problems just as bad, but that's a different discussion.

The point is that demand exists for a service or product at one price point. Double that, and the demand may vanish.

[aretood2]

If the guy who owns the business has to double his wage costs to get people to work for him, he will have to double his prices (or make cuts elsewhere).
Suppose he's charging his customer $1000/season for basic lawn cutting/maint. Now he has to charge $2000. His customer might decide that at that price, it's better to buy a lawnmower and a weedeater and add lawn care to his janitorial staff's duties, or hire someone directly, in either case, doing the job himself 'cause while it's worth it at $1000, it's not worth it at 2K.
Same thing with the fast food joint. Guy driving home from work might think it's worth $20 buck for a bag of burgers to feed the kids and not have to cook, he might not think its worth it at $40 bucks for the bag.

Full service restaurants are a different animal completely because of the lower wages and tipping, which introduce other problems just as bad, but that's a different discussion.

The point is that demand exists for a service or product at one price point. Double that, and the demand may vanish.

Don't you see that it is an anti-immigrant argument? And a stupid one at that. It makes no economic sense in doing that. Why not just hire immigrant workers? Why should anyone go out of business because they have to hire cheaper labor? Who is the government to even dictate that? Not to mention that the guy in the article will go out of business putting 3 people out of employment just because you don't want scary immigrants working in the US.

And by the way, groundskeeping and landscaping are two very different things. You described groundskeeping, not landscaping. In any event, the whole point of a free market is that products and services desired become available. That can't work with government constraints.

And also, you basically described the economic system best labeled as "National Socialism".

[Gatefan1976]

https://www.thedailybeast.com/infuri...r-hillary-dirt

[Annoyed]

Don't you see that it is an anti-immigrant argument? And a stupid one at that. It makes no economic sense in doing that. Why not just hire immigrant workers? Why should anyone go out of business because they have to hire cheaper labor? Who is the government to even dictate that? Not to mention that the guy in the article will go out of business putting 3 people out of employment just because you don't want scary immigrants working in the US.

And by the way, groundskeeping and landscaping are two very different things. You described groundskeeping, not landscaping. In any event, the whole point of a free market is that products and services desired become available. That can't work with government constraints.

And also, you basically described the economic system best labeled as "National Socialism".

Lots of people seem to think it can work with the govt. dictating artificially high minimum wages.
That's one way to force higher wages. I prefer to rig the job market to use market forces to accomplish the same thing.

[Annoyed]

https://www.thedailybeast.com/infuri...r-hillary-dirt

What the hell did they need Russian help getting dirt on Hillary for anyway? She had a cloud of it following her around for years. All they had to do is get a shovel.

[Gatefan1976]

What the hell did they need Russian help getting dirt on Hillary for anyway? She had a cloud of it following her around for years. All they had to do is get a shovel.

20 years, multiple investigations under dems and repubs and still nothing.
Meanwhile, Manaforts Son in law flipped either today or yesterday, and they are 1 year in.
If Hillary is the genius you credit her for, you backed the wrong horse.
(And yes, 20 years of public scrutiny while still finding nothing tangible is genius levels of misdirection and political acumen, weather you like it or not)

[Womble]

20 years, multiple investigations under dems and repubs and still nothing.

Welcome to the deep state. Doesn't take a genius, just the right people in the right places.

[Gatefan1976]

Welcome to the deep state. Doesn't take a genius, just the right people in the right places.

Deep state?
Is that like a subversive internal organization?
One that promotes one side over the other?

[Womble]

Deep state?
Is that like a subversive internal organization?
One that promotes one side over the other?

Yes and no. It doesn't need to be an organized conspiracy per se. Deep state is a network of unelected officials/civil servants from the non-elected branches of power, the ones who are not generally replaced with a change of government or head of state (judiciary, military, police, various administrative agencies), who, if a critical mass of political uniformity among them is reached, may form a kind of self-sustaining ideological bottleneck to promote their interests and politics. Such a network neutralizes the will of the people and effectively disables the government's ability to effect change in some areas by sabotaging it on lower-than-government administrative level. That phenomenon is actually quite common, although more visible in some states than others, and can occasionally be beneficial against the rise of an authoritarian tyrant, as was the case of Turkey before Erdogan.

(The closest non-government parallel is the ideological bottleneck often formed in universities by the teaching staff).

[Gatefan1976]

I know what a deep state is Womble.

What should you do with this deep state?

[SoulReaver]

if the deep state becomes a hindrance what's to stop the elected government from firing those responsible (elected officials can fire any non-elected ones right? in any decent democracy anyway)

[Gatefan1976]

if the deep state becomes a hindrance what's to stop the elected government from firing those responsible (elected officials can fire any non-elected ones right? in any decent democracy anyway)

Nothing stops them, except brain drain and perceived partisanship.
But sure, you can use trumps plan, you just endorsed it.

[Annoyed]

Welcome to the deep state. Doesn't take a genius, just the right people in the right places.

Also, knowing where the bodies are buried helps.