The Political Discussion Thread

[Annoyed]

Its why so many sites are now banning white supremacist supporters.

No one wants to give them a platform to spread their message.

Not even in the name of debate.. that effectively normalises their extreme views.

It's why the extreme right are always pointing at the left and saying 'but they're violent too! They're protesting!!' They want people to say 'there's blame on both sides', it blurs the lines, creates confusion and makes their extremism easier to get away with.

Anti-Fascist isn't a movement. It should be the default setting.

First, private websites such as Facebook, Twitter and whatever other social networking networks might exist are private businesses, and they have the absolute right to restrict any content they don't want to be shown on their services. I have no argument with that whatsoever. If the viewer doesn't like those policies, they don't have to use that web site. End of discussion.

I've never supported violence as a form of protest, you don't have the right to attack someone because they disagree with you, I don't care which side you're on. I think I was the first poster here to condemn that nut job who ran his car into the crowd.

But you illustrate what I say about the left and their being tolerant of views they disagree with.

I don't support nazi, racist bigotry at all, I do not condone it, it's a despicable attitude that has no place in today's world.

But I support Free Speech even more strongly. If some idiot, nutcase or whatever wants to spout hateful garbage like that, he or they have every right to do so, or there is no such thing as freedom of speech. It applies to all, or it doesn't exist. It's up to the audience to decide the value of what is said, and act accordingly. Ignore it, counterprotest it, ridicule it or whatever. Anything besides physical attack.

But your attitude is clearly that people who hold views you oppose should not be allowed to express their views. That's an even bigger threat. Who decides who is to be heard?

[Pharaoh Hamenthotep]

That's the paradox of tolerance.

In order to have a free and tolerant, accepting society, you absolutely cannot tolerate intolerance.

Neo Nazis with Tiki torches have no place in society. Their hate speech should not be heard. They should not be tolerated in any way, shape or form.

[Annoyed]

That's the paradox of tolerance.

In order to have a free and tolerant, accepting society, you absolutely cannot tolerate intolerance.

Neo Nazis with Tiki torches have no place in society. Their hate speech should not be heard. They should not be tolerated in any way, shape or form.

And who decides what should or should not be tolerated? What about what should be tolerated 10 years from now?

If you want free speech, you have to allow it for everyone, or it is worthless.

It is the responsibility of the audience to decide the value of what someone or some group says. Myself, in most cases, I just ignore the the ramblings of the KKK, white supremacists, black supremacists and the like. They aren't worth my time.

[Gatecat]

And who decides what should or should not be tolerated? What about what should be tolerated 10 years from now?

If you want free speech, you have to allow it for everyone, or it is worthless.

It is the responsibility of the audience to decide the value of what someone or some group says. Myself, in most cases, I just ignore the the ramblings of the KKK, white supremacists, black supremacists and the like. They aren't worth my time.

The problem is, a lot of people lack a sense of responisibility or common sense. They believe every crap they are told. And that was one reason why Hitler was so successful. I get that banning hate speech goes against your very believe in free speech, but it also prevents that something like the holocaust or any other genocide can ever happen again. So, IMHO, free speech ends when it's hate speech (see definition above). Everyone who is ignoring or not man enough to stand up against hate speech is just a coward.

[Annoyed]

The problem is, a lot of people lack a sense of responisibility or common sense. They believe every crap they are told. And that was one reason why Hitler was so successful.

Well, maybe we ought to have an educational system that teaches people to think for themselves, rather than just parroting back whatever some authority figure (in their case, the educational system itself) tells them to think.

[garhkal]

ANd then victim blaming when those speaking distasteful words take violent action towards those disagreeing with them and explain it away as 'well, if you don't want us to attack you, don't protest'

No. In this case, the pro-nazi demonstrators showed up armed and in military gear, possibly to intimidate anyone else. They showed up spoiling for a fight. If their intentions were really peaceful, why take full advantage of open carry and bring their weapons at all?

Because there is a history of the left physically attacking any rally/event promoting views they disagree with?

Exactly. IF i know group A loves crashing other protests and have been violent in 80% of them towards anyone they disagree with, and our group's going out to do a demonstration and we get told "HEY group A is expected to show up to counter protest", you BET your ass i am going to go, EXPECTING To defend myself..

Why did the "peaceful protesters" bring guns?
Let me guess, that was their right............

See my response above Gatefan..

You know how you like to bang on about people standing around filming people getting the crap kicked out of them, but not interfere?

ANd what exactly does that have to do with this current discussion?

Jeff Sessions - Head of the DOJ
Paul Ryan- Speaker of the Senate
Mitch McConnel- Speaker of the House
-Every- republican senator and Congressman who will not call trump on his insanity.
They ALL tacitly support him, because they will not oppose him.

JUST cause those people are in those spots, DOES NOT MEAN they are his supporters.. Especially mcconnel...

You mean the one where he called nazis good people and blamed the victims?

Teabag, EXACTLY when did he say Nazis are good people" HE said there weer good people there NOT WITH THE nazis, but just protesting to not demolish the statue..

Can you explain to me how or why should the bad stuff be honored with statues in order to be taught? Why must something taught also be honored? Can't we just honor the good stuff worthy of honor and teach everything else? I mean....you haven't answered that whole "Where's Hitler's Statue" question.

Cause if we only honor what's good, then we need to define WHO GETS TO say what is good..

Never heard of anything like that for the illegal immigrant thing. However you do have a point for the LGBT thing.

Strange, EVERY PERSON On the left in the media has decried trump supporters for being racist, cause they are against ILLEGAL immigration when MANY SAY WE are FULLY OK with legal immigrants, just not those coming in ILLEGALLY.. YET the left still berates us for it..

Fascinating huh? Neither group had any business there.

And i agree. if you are doing a rally, do it in your OWN city/town.. Don't travel half way across the country just to protest somthig you disagree with, to try and foist YOUR desires on those who live there.

[garhkal]

Anyone who takes a weapon (whatever kind) to a protest, is not taking it to defend themselves for what might occur.

WHAT?? So if i know someone might show up that is gonna be violent towards me, i shouldn't be allowed to take a weapon to defend myself with?

By not calling them by name perhaps.
Like he always blamed Obama for not calling it radical Islam.

Maybe we watched different videos, i do remember him calling out the KKK and Nazis.. THEN CALLED out the other groups too..

Err... The Great Wall of China wasn't build by slaves, nor were the pyramids.

Check your facts..

Answers.com® is making the world better one answer at a time. yes they were slaves the emperor ordered people to come and build the GREAT WALL OF CHINA many people died while building the great wall and all those who died was built into the wall.

And by bulldozing that land you're vandalizing sacred ground.

Did we not purchase the right to do that though?

That's not hate speech.

By the legal definition., i agree those 2 examples are not. BUT TO MANY of those on the left they do seem to be..

[Falcon Horus]

But I support Free Speech even more strongly. If some idiot, nutcase or whatever wants to spout hateful garbage like that, he or they have every right to do so, or there is no such thing as freedom of speech. It applies to all, or it doesn't exist. It's up to the audience to decide the value of what is said, and act accordingly. Ignore it, counterprotest it, ridicule it or whatever. Anything besides physical attack.

So, when this idiot calls for the death of all homosexuals, and the massas then turn on the LGBT-community -- are you still defending the idiot's right to spout his hate speech?

Or this idiot calls for the rounding up of all the Jews/Muslims/Christians/..., first in ghettos, then camps because they are evil incarnate and his/her followers decide that is a call to the proverbial arms -- will you stand idely by and defend his free speech or are you going "hey wait a minute..."?

There are a lot of people who wouldn't think twice about making good on someone's words, and plenty of people have already proven this many times over. The more influence this person has, the more likely the outcome is not a pleasant one for the group targeted.

I'm all for free speech but even free speech has its limits. Nothing is ever truly free, not in the world outside of your head.

EXACTLY when did he say Nazis are good people" HE said there weer good people there NOT WITH THE nazis, but just protesting to not demolish the statue.

He literally said there were some "fine people on both sides".

How many sides were there exactly -- 2 sides: the marchers who were all white suppremacists and the counterprotesters who were a mixture of BLM, Antifa, clergy and a variety of other people.

Antifa and the Unite The Right caused trouble.

There was a witness statement from one of the clergy people who attended the counterprotest, who asked the Antifa people who were creating a barrier between the alt-right and the counterprotestors not to use violence to protect them. And they did. They didn't agree with the method, but they listened to this person not to defend with violence.

Cause if we only honor what's good, then we need to define WHO GETS TO say what is good.

I have to say, you really are starting to look more and more like a real white nationalist who would march down to Hitler's house in Austria and celebrate his birthday to honor him.

Honor and respect is reserved for heroes, not oppressors.

Strange, EVERY PERSON On the left in the media has decried trump supporters for being racist, cause they are against ILLEGAL immigration when MANY SAY WE are FULLY OK with legal immigrants, just not those coming in ILLEGALLY.. YET the left still berates us for it.

Perhaps, if you didn't refer to them as rapists and murderers.

WHAT?? So if i know someone might show up that is gonna be violent towards me, i shouldn't be allowed to take a weapon to defend myself with?

You be the better man and stand tall.

Maybe we watched different videos, i do remember him calling out the KKK and Nazis.. THEN CALLED out the other groups too.

When it was too late.

Check your facts.

I did.

Watched a documentary on the Great Wall and how it was build a while back.
And I'm friends with no less than 3 Egyptologists.

The pyramids were build by workers who were paid for the job. During farming season they worked on their farms, and during the dry season they worked on the royal tombs.

And the Great Wall of China was build by the army, the people (paid for it) and criminals who were punished to work their time away.

Did we not purchase the right to do that though?

SACRED NATIVE GROUND / BURIAL GROUNDS

How would you feel if we decided to bulldoze across Arlington Cemetary?
Or tore down a church to errect a new office building?

Your lack of respect for other people is astounding.

[Annoyed]

So, when this idiot calls for the death of all homosexuals, and the massas then turn on the LGBT-community -- are you still defending the idiot's right to spout his hate speech?

Or this idiot calls for the rounding up of all the Jews/Muslims/Christians/..., first in ghettos, then camps because they are evil incarnate and his/her followers decide that is a call to the proverbial arms -- will you stand idely by and defend his free speech or are you going "hey wait a minute..."?

There are a lot of people who wouldn't think twice about making good on someone's words, and plenty of people have already proven this many times over. The more people the person who said is, the more followers he/she has, the more likely the outcome is not a pleasant one for the group targeted.

I'm all for free speech but even free speech has its limits. Nothing is ever truly free, not in the world outside of your head.

Or, the idiot could say we should kill all people of German* ancestry to prevent another Hitler. He has the right to speak too.
If someone starts taking action on that, the blame is on the person or group who starts to actually kill people. Those people should have had a proper reaction to the idiot. Oppose him, ignore him, laugh at him, whatever. As long as they don't cross the line into criminal behavior on his behalf or against him.

As I said, free speech must be universal, or it's an illusion. If we cede the right to censor speech on this or any other topic, what's next?

* And of what ancestry do you think I am?

[Gatefan1976]

Didn't take long............
http://thehill.com/homenews/media/34...will-be-out-by

[Gatefan1976]

Or, the idiot could say we should kill all people of German* ancestry to prevent another Hitler. He has the right to speak too.
If someone starts taking action on that, the blame is on the person or group who starts to actually kill people. Those people should have had a proper reaction to the idiot. Oppose him, ignore him, laugh at him, whatever. As long as they don't cross the line into criminal behavior on his behalf or against him.

As I said, free speech must be universal, or it's an illusion. If we cede the right to censor speech on this or any other topic, what's next?

* And of what ancestry do you think I am?

Let's play a hypothetical.
If I actively encouraged someone to harm you, gave reasons why they should harm you, and said you would be a hero for harming you, would I be blameless if they did?

[Annoyed]

Isn't that about what I just said?
You are responsible for your actions, and your audience would be responsible for theirs.
The only way you would be responsible is if you acted in collusion with the guy or in some way aided his actions.

[Gatefan1976]

Isn't that about what I just said?
You are responsible for your actions, and your audience would be responsible for theirs.
The only way you would be responsible is if you acted in collusion with the guy or in some way aided his actions.

No, that's not what you said, you have now added reasons why you would consider me "aiding and abetting"
Define what you mean by collusion.

[mad_gater]

So, when this idiot calls for the death of all homosexuals, and the massas then turn on the LGBT-community -- are you still defending the idiot's right to spout his hate speech?

Or this idiot calls for the rounding up of all the Jews/Muslims/Christians/..., first in ghettos, then camps because they are evil incarnate and his/her followers decide that is a call to the proverbial arms -- will you stand idely by and defend his free speech or are you going "hey wait a minute..."?

There are a lot of people who wouldn't think twice about making good on someone's words, and plenty of people have already proven this many times over. The more influence this person has, the more likely the outcome is not a pleasant one for the group targeted.

I'm all for free speech but even free speech has its limits. Nothing is ever truly free, not in the world outside of your head.



He literally said there were some "fine people on both sides".

How many sides were there exactly -- 2 sides: the marchers who were all white suppremacists and the counterprotesters who were a mixture of BLM, Antifa, clergy and a variety of other people.

Antifa and the Unite The Right caused trouble.

There was a witness statement from one of the clergy people who attended the counterprotest, who asked the Antifa people who were creating a barrier between the alt-right and the counterprotestors not to use violence to protect them. And they did. They didn't agree with the method, but they listened to this person not to defend with violence.



I have to say, you really are starting to look more and more like a real white nationalist who would march down to Hitler's house in Austria and celebrate his birthday to honor him.

Honor and respect is reserved for heroes, not oppressors.



Perhaps, if you didn't refer to them as rapists and murderers.



You be the better man and stand tall.



When it was too late.



I did.

Watched a documentary on the Great Wall and how it was build a while back.
And I'm friends with no less than 3 Egyptologists.

The pyramids were build by workers who were paid for the job. During farming season they worked on their farms, and during the dry season they worked on the royal tombs.

And the Great Wall of China was build by the army, the people (paid for it) and criminals who were punished to work their time away.



SACRED NATIVE GROUND / BURIAL GROUNDS

How would you feel if we decided to bulldoze across Arlington Cemetary?
Or tore down a church to errect a new office building?

Your lack of respect for other people is astounding.

"be the better man" in the case of a physical attack on my person? nice to know you'd happily prosecute a person who uses force against a bully since, in your opinion...our only moral duty in the face of physical violence caried out against us is to roll over and play dead

[Gatefan1976]

"be the better man" in the case of a physical attack on my person? nice to know you'd happily prosecute a person who uses force against a bully since, in your opinion...our only moral duty in the face of physical violence caried out against us is to roll over and play dead

I'm not touching you, I'm not touching you!!