The Political Discussion Thread

[Gatefan1976]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...=.1b90b4c6d6ce

[Gatefan1976]

https://www.vox.com/world/2017/7/6/1...rump-hotel-g20
Good thing the Germans are willing to put up people without a place to stay.........

[jelgate]

I'm concerned of the understaffed state department. I know Annoyed and garhkal will blame liberals but we didn't have this problems with the Bushes or Regan

[Gatefan1976]

I'm concerned of the understaffed state department. I know Annoyed and garhkal will blame liberals but we didn't have this problems with the Bushes or Regan

You don't need a state Department when you have ceded "diplomatic control" to the Armed Services..........

[jelgate]

I believe that's call martial law

[Coco Pops]

They are probably renting them out at the moment anyway. They're not being used -- vacancies haven't been filled yet.

They have turned them into Air Bnb's

[Gatefan1976]

Well, it's only foreign policy............ so far.

[garhkal]

Which are conspicuously absent in the Americas.

Well, techncally that's true, our politicians seem to be OUR royalty..

I remember a study FH posted that showed as much. Transition does not alleviate the stressers the lead someone to suicide in high enough rates to make that conclusion. It does decrease the suicide rates though, but I'd like to see why the decrease isn't as big as it ought to be, if the cause is the inability to transition.

That's something i had a heated argument with a LGBTQ activist about, several years back just after that study was complete.. IF their main argument for WHY so many suicided was that they were 'prevented from transitioning, and now they are, Why then are so many still killing themselves?

That activist couldn't come up with an answer..

Why weren't they allowed in? Why shouldn't they?

Mostly medical issues.. Transitioning they need all sorts of hormone treatments, and such, which if in , we in the mil would have to pony up for...

So if that coach was Muslim and he prayed, you'd be okay with it?

If like that coach, it was done as HIMSELF and the kids decide to join in, no..

I'm concerned of the understaffed state department. I know Annoyed and garhkal will blame liberals but we didn't have this problems with the Bushes or Regan

Is that understaffing cause congress has not made all the appointments yet?

[Gatefan1976]

Is that understaffing cause congress has not made all the appointments yet?

If you mean approved by congress, no. Over 350 positions have had no one nominated at all.

[The Flyattractor]

https://www.vox.com/world/2017/7/6/1...rump-hotel-g20
Good thing the Germans are willing to put up people without a place to stay.........

Yeah know I heard a funny thing about Germans the other day. It was about how Germans (esecially the Leftist Germans) are always going on about how they should give into the GUILT they share for the Horrible Things that happened under the Nazi Regime,mainly the Jewish Holocaust, and that is why they are letting so many Muslim Immigrants into their country...but the Muslims have a far longer and just as nasty history of Hating the Jewish People then the Nazis. Ohh the IRONY!!!!!!!!

[Falcon Horus]

You've clearly made up your mind that somehow the US is just like Saudi Arabia and that this is the worst place to be gay in.

The worst, not by a long shot. I mean, Chechnya is killing its homosexual men and in Nigeria you get the death penalty for homosexual activities.

But as far as modern, western, industrialized countries go, the US does an awful lot of things to make it as difficult as possible for minorities to be counted as an equal. Any chance they get, a new bill is written or voted on to create a hostile environment for minorities.

Never mind how badly you've slanted some of your points and the fact that without any actual details I just don't believe you when it comes to some of the healthcare things, or the transgender murders and that you are ignoring that the US is hardly unique in the western world in some of these areas.[/COLOR]

I was bound for time -- here you go with the details:

Republicans leave transgender policy in place for now

Lawmaker Vicky Hartzler takes aim at military coverage of transgender surgeries

Suicide is the 2nd leading cause of death among young people ages 10 to 24.

Effects of Victimization and Violence on Suicidal Ideation and Behaviors Among Sexual Minority and Heterosexual Adolescents.

Sexual Identity, Sex of Sexual Contacts, and Health-Related Behaviors Among Students in Grades 9–12 — United States and Selected Sites, 2015

Bullying and LGBT youth (pdf)

"Bathroom bill" legislative tracking

"In the 2017 legislative session:
16 states - Alabama, Arkansas, Illinois, Kansas, Kentucky, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, New York, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Virginia, Washington and Wyoming - have considered legislation that would restrict access to multiuser restrooms, locker rooms, and other sex-segregated facilities on the basis of a definition of sex or gender consistent with sex assigned at birth or “biological sex.”

6 states - Missouri, Montana, North Carolina, South Carolina, Texas, and Virginia - have considered legislation that would preempt municipal and county-level anti-discrimination laws. North Carolina is the only state to pass this type of legislation (House bill 2 and then House Bill 142). Legislation is still pending in Missouri, South Carolina and Texas.

14 states - Arkansas, Illinois, Kansas, Kentucky, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, New Jersey, New York, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, and Virginia - have considered legislation that would limit transgender students' rights at school. The bills in New Jersey and Oklahoma are in response to withdrawn Federal Guidance issued in May 2016 regarding schools obligations to transgender students."

And in those who medically fully 'transition' those rates are still high.. So it seems allowing them to transition does not help as much as people think.

Suicide Attempts among Transgender and Gender Non-Conforming Adults

"Overall, the most striking finding of our analysis was the exceptionally high prevalence of lifetime suicide
attempts reported by NTDS respondents across all demographics and experiences. Based on prior research and the findings of this report, we find that mental health factors and experiences of harassment, discrimination, violence and rejection may interact to produce a marked vulnerability to suicidal behavior in transgender and gender non-conforming individuals. More research on suicidal behavior among transgender
and gender non-conforming people is needed."

Suicide and Suicidal Behavior among Transgender Persons

"The suicide attempt rate among transgender persons ranges from 32% to 50% across the countries. Gender-based victimization, discrimination, bullying, violence, being rejected by the family, friends, and community; harassment by intimate partner, family members, police and public; discrimination and ill treatment at health-care system are the major risk factors that influence the suicidal behavior among transgender persons."

See, Garhkal, it's people like you who contribute to the suicide of those who transitioned and are still being harassed by stupîd laws and rejection from society, making their lives miserable.

On the transwomen killed, the reports vary as where the investigations are -- so, it could still go either and every way. Therefore, this remains to be seen whether they were victims of hate crimes or homicide victims (of which there are plenty):

HRC list of the women killed

Murders of 3 transgender women [in Lousiana - New Orleans] highlight alarming trend

Supreme Court: Bosses Can Deny Birth Control Coverage to Employees (dated July 2nd, 2014)

"...the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that some employers who personally believe birth control is wrong have the power to deny legally mandated health care coverage of it for their employees. The 5–4 ruling in Burwell v. Hobby Lobby (previously Hobby Lobby v. Sebelius) and Conestoga Woods v. Sebelius grants bosses at two companies a religious exemption to the part of the Affordable Care Act (ACA) that covers birth control without copay"

South Dakota passes “religious liberty” law allowing adoption agencies to discriminate against same-sex couples

State Bills Would Give Adoption Agencies the Right to Discriminate Against LGBT Adoptive Parents. Kids Will Suffer.
Texas and Alabama are or have passed similar bills. I had an article about the Texas one but the website wouldn't let me read it cause I'm using an adblocker so instead I refer to the ACLU article which has them listed.

[Falcon Horus]

Just like the Monarchy in the UK and most the rest of Europe.

Nope, I'm fairly certain the Queen holds more power still than our King does.
Heck, we're a federal kingdom, and if the Flemish nationalists get their way, we won't be a kingdom for much longer. They seek an independant Flanders.

But what about the protection of the straight men and women (and girls)? Or do they 'have to suck it up'?

What about them?
Was there every a problem before it was made problem?

No, there are a few cases, and not a single one involving a transman or -woman.

Being they weren't allowed in the first place, till that law was wrote, and as someone who served for 20 years, i would rather keep it the way it was, no TG's serving.

Afraid they might be better at it than you?

Why shouldn't they be allowed to serve their country?

And IMO that should be THEIR choice, just lke they can charge workers more for company provided health insurance if they are fat, smoke, or don't join the company's fitness plans.

No, it should not be their choice.
And comparing birth control coverage to obesity, smoking and/or drinking is ridiculous at best.

BUT the whole bupkis that turms me OFF the whole SoC&S malarky, is that MANY of the things which the atheists and aclue SUE for breech of that, to ME don't count.

You do realize the ACLU has defended republican issues, right? KKK-members even, defending their right to free speech.

Also, the ACLU isn't religion affiliated. They represent all the people.

Or telling schools "sorry you can't have prayer groups after class", "remove bibles" and the like... YET those same orgs say not one damn thing when its anything to do with Islam being pushed in the schools..

We've been over this, and you keep ignoring it: THEY REPRESENT EVERYONE EQUALLY!!

Here be an example:
2017
The ACLU and the ACLU of Alabama (2017) favorably settled the case of a Christian woman who was forced by the DMV to remove her headscarf, which she wears for religious reasons.

2015
The ACLU of Hawai’i (2015) secured the rights of a pastor and his wife to hand out religious literature on a public sidewalk.

The ACLU of Indiana (2015) challenged a state law preventing sex offenders from attending religious worship services.

The ACLU of Virginia (2015) defended students’ right to wear rosary beads in a public high school.

They have turned them into Air Bnb's

That would actually be supercool.

That activist couldn't come up with an answer.

I did, see my previous post.

Mostly medical issues.. Transitioning they need all sorts of hormone treatments, and such, which if in , we in the mil would have to pony up for.

Service members wounded in the line of fire also need treatment -- I guess, you don't want to pony it up for them either then.

Transgender transition care will cost the military this much

"Aaron Belkin, a professor of political science at San Francisco State University, told Reuters that transition care for transgender members of the United States military would cost around $5.6 million—an amount he called "little more than a rounding error," considering the military's total expenditure. The $5.6 million sum breaks down to $0.22 per service member per month."

Because I mentioned it...

Each Injured US Soldier Will End Up Costing $2 Million On Average (dated 2013)

"For every one of the 866,181 soldiers officially counted injured casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan, the government is expected to spend some $2 million in long-term medical cost.

The total of $1.7 trillion is based on a widely cited March 2013 paper by Linda Bilmes at Harvard’s Kennedy School. It includes $800 billion already spent on injured veterans along with the cost of long-term care for an additional 50,000 current casualties counted by the Pentagon."

Is that understaffing cause congress has not made all the appointments yet?

Can't confirm what isn't nominated.

[aretood2]

The worst, not by a long shot. I mean, Chechnya is killing its homosexual men and in Nigeria you get the death penalty for homosexual activities.

Yet still somehow exactly like Saudi Arabia?

Republicans leave transgender policy in place for now

So nothing has changed?

Lawmaker Vicky Hartzler takes aim at military coverage of transgender surgeries

Why on Earth should the military pay for that? Why should anyone? Everything you've posted points away from lack of transitioning being a key cause of suicide.

Suicide is the 2nd leading cause of death among young people ages 10 to 24.

The interesting thing about suicide rates in general is that they tend to be way higher in western nations, especially developed nations. There is a lot more involved in this than a simple issue regarding a nation's laws.

Effects of Victimization and Violence on Suicidal Ideation and Behaviors Among Sexual Minority and Heterosexual Adolescents.

I do have to ask though, why are transgenders more suicidal than "cisgendered" homosexuals? Anyway, what does this have to do with the laws of the land?

Sexual Identity, Sex of Sexual Contacts, and Health-Related Behaviors Among Students in Grades 9–12 — United States and Selected Sites, 2015

Here's what gets me. When it comes to transgender people spend an awful a lot of time separating sex and gender but then turn around and use those two terms interchangeably. And again, this is related to the legal system............

Bullying and LGBT youth (pdf)

This is triggered by the legal system by...........????

"Bathroom bill" legislative tracking

"In the 2017 legislative session:
16 states - Alabama, Arkansas, Illinois, Kansas, Kentucky, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, New York, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Virginia, Washington and Wyoming - have considered legislation that would restrict access to multiuser restrooms, locker rooms, and other sex-segregated facilities on the basis of a definition of sex or gender consistent with sex assigned at birth or “biological sex.”

6 states - Missouri, Montana, North Carolina, South Carolina, Texas, and Virginia - have considered legislation that would preempt municipal and county-level anti-discrimination laws. North Carolina is the only state to pass this type of legislation (House bill 2 and then House Bill 142). Legislation is still pending in Missouri, South Carolina and Texas.

14 states - Arkansas, Illinois, Kansas, Kentucky, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, New Jersey, New York, Oklahoma, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, and Virginia - have considered legislation that would limit transgender students' rights at school. The bills in New Jersey and Oklahoma are in response to withdrawn Federal Guidance issued in May 2016 regarding schools obligations to transgender students."

I have a better idea, why not just let people poop as they please? This is what happens when you want the government to legislate everything. Stores could easily end the practice of bathroom use if they feel strongly about regulating people's pooping habits.

Suicide Attempts among Transgender and Gender Non-Conforming Adults

"Overall, the most striking finding of our analysis was the exceptionally high prevalence of lifetime suicide
attempts reported by NTDS respondents across all demographics and experiences. Based on prior research and the findings of this report, we find that mental health factors and experiences of harassment, discrimination, violence and rejection may interact to produce a marked vulnerability to suicidal behavior in transgender and gender non-conforming individuals. More research on suicidal behavior among transgender
and gender non-conforming people is needed."

You already shared this one before, and just as I said last time, this actually doesn't prove any link between transitioning and suicide rates. Not to mention these are rates of unsuccessful suicide attempts that are reported by those surveyed, not actual suicides which are very hard to track in this detail.

Suicide and Suicidal Behavior among Transgender Persons

"The suicide attempt rate among transgender persons ranges from 32% to 50% across the countries. Gender-based victimization, discrimination, bullying, violence, being rejected by the family, friends, and community; harassment by intimate partner, family members, police and public; discrimination and ill treatment at health-care system are the major risk factors that influence the suicidal behavior among transgender persons."

The US doesn't have the highest rates...

See, Garhkal, it's people like you who contribute to the suicide of those who transitioned and are still being harassed by stupîd laws and rejection from society, making their lives miserable.

As for rejection, I do wonder how high were suicide rates among African Americans in the south in the height of Jim Crow laws? Or any oppressed peoples for that matter.

On the transwomen killed, the reports vary as where the investigations are -- so, it could still go either and every way. Therefore, this remains to be seen whether they were victims of hate crimes or homicide victims (of which there are plenty):

HRC list of the women killed

Murders of 3 transgender women [in Lousiana - New Orleans] highlight alarming trend

I thought you said they were killed because they were transgendered? So how should I take your word then? Should I assume that you are always being accurate? Or should I always question every statement you make? I can assure you, the list of Hispanics killed in the US is much much much much much (by a factor a lot more) higher than transgender women (What of men?) yet I highly doubt that is a result of racism just because "evil whitey".

Supreme Court: Bosses Can Deny Birth Control Coverage to Employees (dated July 2nd, 2014)

"...the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that some employers who personally believe birth control is wrong have the power to deny legally mandated health care coverage of it for their employees. The 5–4 ruling in Burwell v. Hobby Lobby (previously Hobby Lobby v. Sebelius) and Conestoga Woods v. Sebelius grants bosses at two companies a religious exemption to the part of the Affordable Care Act (ACA) that covers birth control without copay"

Personally, if birth control is needed for any medical issue, sure that should be covered. But if it is just simply to prevent pregnancy, they have a job. They can save up money for when they feel like they need to get into someone's pants. You can take out condoms and Viagra from coverage while your at it too. Otherwise, people do need to take some responsibility for when and how they want to take off their pants.

South Dakota passes “religious liberty” law allowing adoption agencies to discriminate against same-sex couples

State Bills Would Give Adoption Agencies the Right to Discriminate Against LGBT Adoptive Parents. Kids Will Suffer.
Texas and Alabama are or have passed similar bills. I had an article about the Texas one but the website wouldn't let me read it cause I'm using an adblocker so instead I refer to the ACLU article which has them listed.

I'd want to consider if there ought to be any differention between a church based adoption agency versus a secular one, mainly denoted by funding sources. If a church based agency that doesn't receive money from the government and funded through the church wants to decide what couples to work with, I say let them. If they get outside funding, then that's a problem.

Afraid they might be better at it than you?

Why shouldn't they be allowed to serve their country?

That'd be hard to accomplish for men transitioning into women. They'd effectively would be actively weakening their body by reducing their testosterone levels. As for women to men, in the battle field, I question the logistics of going through the trouble of making sure hormone levels don't wreak habit with their ability to fight to their most optimal level. That means they'd have to prove themselves pre-hormone treatment on physical tests. That's be hard if they are in the middle of transitioning.

For the military you do have to look at one thing and one thing alone. The efficiency and maximum capability of a military and its soldiers to fight and win. Everything else is a luxury.

[garhkal]

Was there every a problem before it was made problem?

The only cases i remember were out at concerts/large public auditoriums where the gals were queued up like bikers at a titty joint to go in and 'go', but the guys restroom was rather smooth.. so gals jumped into the guys room, sometimes even blocking it off, so guys couldn't go in.. But did i ever stand next to a queer while taking a leak. Don't know, never had a guy standing near me while going, make mention of his sexuality.. Heck other than a little polite chit-chat (dude this concert's awesome/so what games you running at this convention), MOST guys observe the rule of "don't chat whien whizzing"..

No, there are a few cases, and not a single one involving a transman or -woman.

BUT do you think those perverts who have done those incidents in changing rooms/public toilets, WOULD have done them still, had it not been for Target and other stores SHIFTING their policy to be LGBTQ inclusive, to where no one can stop a man walking into the woman's restroom/changing rooms??

Why shouldn't they be allowed to serve their country?

As i pointed out above... Cost..

No, it should not be their choice.
And comparing birth control coverage to obesity, smoking and/or drinking is ridiculous at best.

So a company should be FORCED to provide birth control, but can't tell workers, pay up more cause your smoking/obesity is costing US more to cover you??

"Aaron Belkin, a professor of political science at San Francisco State University, told Reuters that transition care for transgender members of the United States military would cost around $5.6 million—an amount he called "little more than a rounding error," considering the military's total expenditure. The $5.6 million sum breaks down to $0.22 per service member per month."

Like i am going to take the word of a Political science professor at a liberal university, on how much it would cost the military... Now if he was an economist, AND was a former mil member themselves, i might take their word..

Why on Earth should the military pay for that? Why should anyone? Everything you've posted points away from lack of transitioning being a key cause of suicide.

I don't think the mil should either. BUT then i also feel the PUBLIC shouldn't be forced to pay for it for prisoners either..

The interesting thing about suicide rates in general is that they tend to be way higher in western nations, especially developed nations. There is a lot more involved in this than a simple issue regarding a nation's laws.

Could that be, because we in the west, tend to TRACK It more (in general) than third world or mid east/far east nations do??

For the military you do have to look at one thing and one thing alone. The efficiency and maximum capability of a military and its soldiers to fight and win. Everything else is a luxury.

Exactly Tood..

[mad_gater]

Yet still somehow exactly like Saudi Arabia?



So nothing has changed?



Why on Earth should the military pay for that? Why should anyone? Everything you've posted points away from lack of transitioning being a key cause of suicide.


The interesting thing about suicide rates in general is that they tend to be way higher in western nations, especially developed nations. There is a lot more involved in this than a simple issue regarding a nation's laws.



I do have to ask though, why are transgenders more suicidal than "cisgendered" homosexuals? Anyway, what does this have to do with the laws of the land?

Sexual Identity, Sex of Sexual Contacts, and Health-Related Behaviors Among Students in Grades 9–12 — United States and Selected Sites, 2015

Here's what gets me. When it comes to transgender people spend an awful a lot of time separating sex and gender but then turn around and use those two terms interchangeably. And again, this is related to the legal system............



This is triggered by the legal system by...........????



I have a better idea, why not just let people poop as they please? This is what happens when you want the government to legislate everything. Stores could easily end the practice of bathroom use if they feel strongly about regulating people's pooping habits.



You already shared this one before, and just as I said last time, this actually doesn't prove any link between transitioning and suicide rates. Not to mention these are rates of unsuccessful suicide attempts that are reported by those surveyed, not actual suicides which are very hard to track in this detail.



The US doesn't have the highest rates...



As for rejection, I do wonder how high were suicide rates among African Americans in the south in the height of Jim Crow laws? Or any oppressed peoples for that matter.



I thought you said they were killed because they were transgendered? So how should I take your word then? Should I assume that you are always being accurate? Or should I always question every statement you make? I can assure you, the list of Hispanics killed in the US is much much much much much (by a factor a lot more) higher than transgender women (What of men?) yet I highly doubt that is a result of racism just because "evil whitey".



Personally, if birth control is needed for any medical issue, sure that should be covered. But if it is just simply to prevent pregnancy, they have a job. They can save up money for when they feel like they need to get into someone's pants. You can take out condoms and Viagra from coverage while your at it too. Otherwise, people do need to take some responsibility for when and how they want to take off their pants.



I'd want to consider if there ought to be any differention between a church based adoption agency versus a secular one, mainly denoted by funding sources. If a church based agency that doesn't receive money from the government and funded through the church wants to decide what couples to work with, I say let them. If they get outside funding, then that's a problem.



That'd be hard to accomplish for men transitioning into women. They'd effectively would be actively weakening their body by reducing their testosterone levels. As for women to men, in the battle field, I question the logistics of going through the trouble of making sure hormone levels don't wreak habit with their ability to fight to their most optimal level. That means they'd have to prove themselves pre-hormone treatment on physical tests. That's be hard if they are in the middle of transitioning.

For the military you do have to look at one thing and one thing alone. The efficiency and maximum capability of a military and its soldiers to fight and win. Everything else is a luxury.

right I agree....the military is NOT the place to conduct a social engineering experiment