The Political Discussion Thread

[SoulReaver]

Another fine example of the tyranny of the minority.

the electoral college is still the best example of that

[Annoyed]

the electoral college is still the best example of that

Why? Because it kept Al Gore and Hillary out of the White House?

What would your thoughts be if those elections had gone the other way?

[SoulReaver]

Why? Because it kept Al Gore and Hillary out of the White House?

there u go tyranny of the minority
I thought you disapproved of tyranny of the minority?

What would your thoughts be if those elections had gone the other way?

as in, if they'd won both the popular & the official vote? then it would've been fair obviously

[Annoyed]

there u go tyranny of the minority
I thought you disapproved of tyranny of the minority?

as in, if they'd won both the popular & the official vote? then it would've been fair obviously

No, as in "suppose the EC went to Hillary & Gore while the popular vote went for Trump & Bush". Reverse the situation.

[Gatefan1976]

Why? Because it kept Al Gore and Hillary out of the White House?

What would your thoughts be if those elections had gone the other way?

No, because the EC scales the value of votes depending on location. The larger the population, the less value each individual vote has. "One person, One vote" does not happen in the US system.

[Gatefan1976]

Maybe that explains why i am still single.

Perhaps, perhaps not, I can't speak to that, I don't know the people you hang out with.

Are not the DNC also beholden to big businesses and super pacs? THat is what i was getting at..

Sure, but its a wash, both are. There is no point arguing about which turd is worse, is there? All you can do is see what the turd is used for, fertiliser, or just flushed.

How's about Disney and other companies holding their 'pride parades' and if you don't participate (meaning you are now being forced to celebrate), you can be fired (know 2 people who HAVE been fired from Home depot cause of it).

Why are you upset about that? Have you not argued that employers have the right to deny service? It's the same coin, One projects outside the company, one projects within.

Both.

In a day to day role, DNA is largely irrelevant.

Yes i have seen some, and most DO make me go "UG, scary!.." Have not seen one that would make me go "i'd tap that" based on how they look.. YET.

They are out there, but that does not really address the question, Would you put them in the situation of a men's bathroom if they did? Then, step outside the "pretty rules" and just apply it evenly.

Based on the news reports i've seen which have comments on it, showing people's displeasure, vs the few that agree with it, i'd say so..

News reports, or comment sections?
Like I said to annoyed, public sentiment for stuff like the Confederate flag is around 19% (feel free to check) across the US, so hardly the majority. Majority by location, perhaps.

[Ian-S]

Because these days, if some head shrinker can tag it with a medical-sounding label, they get get govt. funding to "treat" the supposed illness.

My son is on the spectrum (Aspergers/ADHD), when he was diagnosed the first option was medication, we said no, I didn't have medication when I was like it as a kid and I turned out fine, so they said if you don't take the medication there's nothing more we can do, I said fine we'll cope.

When he needs it he gets discipline in a way he understands, and he's getting better with patience, it's slow painstaking work, but we're getting there, he's polite, says please and thank you etc. many people tell us that unless they knew, they wouldn't be able to tell he has issues.

His cousin on the other hand, had medication immediately which made little difference (for same diagnosis), a he has turned into a complete nightmare, if he forgets his meds he get's the double whammy of suffering withdrawal along with no moral compass, the kid gets himself into loads of grief, plus he has no discipline, his parents shout, which is about as effective as a swing door in a tornado.

Discipline works when it's done right, it doesn't when it isn't, he still wears his heart on his sleeve and can get upset easily, but I'm not sure that's a bad thing in this modern world.

[SoulReaver]

No, as in "suppose the EC went to Hillary & Gore while the popular vote went for Trump & Bush". Reverse the situation.

then it'd be unfair obviously
(double standards are a typically neocon thing remember)

[Gatefan1976]

The reason I get paid 25 bucks an hour (plus penalty rates) to stack shelves for some extra cash, and our US friends get shafted:

[garhkal]

Because these days, if some head shrinker can tag it with a medical-sounding label, they get get govt. funding to "treat" the supposed illness.

And by medicating it to keep it under wraps rahter than CURING IT they make more money!!

Sure, but its a wash, both are. There is no point arguing about which turd is worse, is there? All you can do is see what the turd is used for, fertiliser, or just flushed.

Personally i say wash them all out, and start afresh!

Why you upset about that? Have you not argued that employers have the right to deny service? It's the same coin, One projects outside the company, one projects within.

An employer denying a CUSTOMER a service is not the same as the employer FIRING a worker who's otherwise good, just cause the worker doesn't believe in celebrating something the bigwigs do..
If you were a tea totaler and the bigwigs felt celebrating octoberfest was good, and told you to go out drinking with the other workers as a 'team building exercise, should they have the right to fire you cause you said "Sorry, but i don't consume alcohol"? NO. Just like they shouldn't if you say smoke while off work time. or drink off work time. Or don't wish to go on a gay pride parade.

Like I said to annoyed, public sentiment for stuff like the Confederate flag is around 19% (feel free to check) the US, so hardly the majority. Majority by location, perhaps.

And are these polls showing that the same ones who said hillary would win in a landslide??



Now onto something else.. We all read/heard about the craigslist adult section being shut down years back. Well now apparently so to has backpage's been shutdown.
Additionally i've tried going to the pages of backpage UK, Ireland, and damn near every other country outside the US, but they just keep redirecting me to the US one... So i tried to look up why that might be, but all i saw was news related to backpage's fight with the DoJ..

Now in reading some of those news sites, i was stunned that liberal groups like google, facebook and microsoft are actually SUPPORTING backpage and it's fight against censorship of the adult(s) section (though everyone knows its used for prostitution)..

So what's everyone here's though on prostitution? SHOULD we just legalize it and in doing so COMBAT sex trafficing?

[Gatefan1976]

Personally i say wash them all out, and start afresh!

Not gonna happen, you work with the tools you have, throwing them all out gets you........ trump.

An employer denying a CUSTOMER a service is not the same as the employer FIRING a worker who's otherwise good, just cause the worker doesn't believe in celebrating something the bigwigs do..

1: you are assuming that the bigwigs have a personal stake in it, I doubt they do, it's just PR
2: Yes, it is the same thing "I cannot in good conscience have X contact with you". Like the Gay can go to another store for a cake, you can go to another company for a job. It is -exactly- the same.

If you were a tea totaler and the bigwigs felt celebrating octoberfest was good, and told you to go out drinking with the other workers as a 'team building exercise, should they have the right to fire you cause you said "Sorry, but i don't consume alcohol"? NO.

Drink soda's or water, or coke, or any other thing you can get at a pub.

Just like they shouldn't if you say smoke while off work time. or drink off work time. Or don't wish to go on a gay pride parade.

False equivalence, Team building exercises are work functions, your own time is your own.

And are these polls showing that the same ones who said hillary would win in a landslide??

So, in your mind, all data collection is now fake news?
You do realise that trumps win came down to some 200000 votes across 4 states, and Hillary -did- smash him in the popular vote. By all metrics, bar the EC, she DID win in a landslide.
I gave you that in the deep south states that -local- sentiment probably is the majority, but across the US is a different thing entirely.

Now onto something else.. We all read/heard about the craigslist adult section being shut down years back. Well now apparently so to has backpage's been shutdown.
Additionally i've tried going to the pages of backpage UK, Ireland, and damn near every other country outside the US, but they just keep redirecting me to the US one... So i tried to look up why that might be, but all i saw was news related to backpage's fight with the DoJ..

Now in reading some of those news sites, i was stunned that liberal groups like google, facebook and microsoft are actually SUPPORTING backpage and it's fight against censorship of the adult(s) section (though everyone knows its used for prostitution)..

Gee, liberals defending freedom, why am I not surprised that surprises you........

So what's everyone here's though on prostitution? SHOULD we just legalize it and in doing so COMBAT sex trafficing?

Legalize it, tax it, and monitor it for abuses of the system, it's the only effective way to deal with behaviour that you know will engaged in no matter what law you make.

[Falcon Horus]

Darn it, I wrote an entire reply yesterday and it looks like my stupid notebook swallowed it whole.
Let me try this again, and hopefully remember the stuff I wrote yesterday today. Stupid old notebook, you suck!

Gonna cut my reply up in a couple of posts -- don't want to risk loosing it again.

You are wrong FH. I have a degree in Biology

It appears I am. Darn, I don't know why I thought you graduated in a different direction.
Must have you confused with someone else. My apologies.

Having an opinion is not predicated upon having a direct interest in the subject being opined on. Nor is the ability or freedom to voice said opinions dependent on having a direct interest in the subject in question.

No, but having an opinion does -- generally -- mean one is invested in the subject somehow. Why else bother with an opinion on the subject?

If the subject was of no interest, there would not be an opinion to be had. You'd just be meh -- not interested to whatever floats your boat. No?

Here's a question I've always had. If gender is a social construct...then how can you be born with the wrong social construct? That's like saying that I was born with the wrong language...

I think what you are looking for here is "nature vs nurture" -- or something similar.

You are born as male or female -- which goes on your birthcertificate, your ID-card (if you have that), into the social security database, and any other database which requires you to indicate m or f.
Every letter I design at the company has at least 1 reference to the sex of the child and thus letters send to parents talk about daughters or sons, even though it's very likely possible that they have a child which identifies as trans and then the gender-specification could very well be wrong.

However, since gender is the social construct, that is nurtured into the child. Born female, you're raised female. Born male, you're raised male. And there differences -- just look at the way toys are marketed, or sports. Jobs and education.

I remember a story about a Norwegian family (I think) who had a child and they made it a point not to divulge its sex to anyone. They wanted to raise this kid gender neutral and allow it to develop into the person it wanted to be. Nobody besides the parents knew whether this kid was a boy or a girl so family and friends couldn't buy gender-specific clothes or toys (unless they'd seen the kid naken of course).

This is a very interesting social experiment, to say the least.

Except ADD isn't a social construct, it's a biological process, or rather a dysfunctional process?

I merely used that as an example to show that brains are wired differently in different people.

[Falcon Horus]

I can understand this argument for sexual attraction, but for gender it just doesn't make sense to me.

I'm afraid I can't help you there. I think you'd have to be in a similar situation to understand it.

I can only speak for myself here (obviously) but as I was growing up the girl-part of me never made sense. It never felt right. It was like something was wrong with it. I wasn't a girl so why did everyone want me to be a girl. Because it said so on my birth certificate? Because I have a name befitting a girl? Even my godfather's name was femininized to be my middle name (I have two middle names, godfather's and godmother's first names).

It was wrong. It felt wrong and when my feminine features became more outspoken I hated it. i didn't want them. Good thing, I was lucky not to develop much in the breast-area and can easily pass for a guy when I'm not wearing tight shirts (which I rarely do). I also don't have my periods because I take contraceptives all year round (I would be down with migraines every month if I didn't -- so it's again, lucky me).

Over the years, I have come to accept the person that I am -- slowly, I might add. I don't fit inside the gender-box, and I also don't fit inside the hetero-box. I am me, unique, gay and genderfluid. Society-wise, not fitting into those boxes is currently still very much problematic.

As for the use of pronouns? What if I simply don't believe that hormones and surgeries make someone a he or a she? You would be asking me to abrogate my reality in favor of yours. Is that not then, in its purist form, the same as me saying he or she despite the transition?

Don't get me wrong, it's offensive to the person for the same reason referring to Jelgate as "she" and sgalisa as "he" would be to them. But we do have a competing set of realities that are not compatible. Which one do you favor? Why? What would be the implications of that?

Actually, the only thing important is the kind of respect you are willing to show towards another person. After all, do you respect this other person (stranger or otherwise) enough to want to refer to them with their preferred pronouns, or their new name? Or not?

Also, referring to them by name -- never wrong (if you have forgotten their pronouns -- works for me).

For the record, I don't really have a preference -- use whatever you feel comfortable with.
You know, as long as it's not meant to be hurtful in any way. Derogatory terms, and the like.

****

Going for a walk along the beach -- will be back later to finish my post. Yes, I'm on holiday -- hence the late replies.

[Pharaoh Hamenthotep]

For the record, I don't really have a preference -- use whatever you feel comfortable with.
You know, as long as it's not meant to be hurtful in any way. Derogatory terms, and the like.

They started this debate with claims that trans people don't deserve any kind of respect. That hormones and surgery don't matter. That they will not use preferred pronouns or names.

Their only aim here is to prove that trans people shouldn't exist. That they don't exist. They are trying to be hurtful. They have been using derogatory terms.

No one should have to debate whether they have the right to exist or not.

[Annoyed]

And by medicating it to keep it under wraps rahter than CURING IT they make more money!!

Now you're catching on.

Quote Originally Posted by Gatefan1976
Why you upset about that? Have you not argued that employers have the right to deny service? It's the same coin, One projects outside the company, one projects within.

An employer denying a CUSTOMER a service is not the same as the employer FIRING a worker who's otherwise good, just cause the worker doesn't believe in celebrating something the bigwigs do..
If you were a tea totaler and the bigwigs felt celebrating octoberfest was good, and told you to go out drinking with the other workers as a 'team building exercise, should they have the right to fire you cause you said "Sorry, but i don't consume alcohol"? NO. Just like they shouldn't if you say smoke while off work time. or drink off work time. Or don't wish to go on a gay pride parade.

I don't think you can have it both ways. If the business owner has the right to refuse to participate in activities that violate their beliefs by not hosting or baking cakes for gay weddings or whatever (and I agree with that) under the argument that its his business, he can do with it as he sees fit, the same argument has to apply when it comes to employee activity while on the clock. Off the clock, on the other hand is another story. If the event occurs outside of the employee's normal working hours, the employer has no right to compel him to attend.

Now onto something else.. We all read/heard about the craigslist adult section being shut down years back. Well now apparently so to has backpage's been shutdown.
Additionally i've tried going to the pages of backpage UK, Ireland, and damn near every other country outside the US, but they just keep redirecting me to the US one... So i tried to look up why that might be, but all i saw was news related to backpage's fight with the DoJ..

Now in reading some of those news sites, i was stunned that liberal groups like google, facebook and microsoft are actually SUPPORTING backpage and it's fight against censorship of the adult(s) section (though everyone knows its used for prostitution)..

So what's everyone here's though on prostitution? SHOULD we just legalize it and in doing so COMBAT sex trafficing?

It's the oldest business in the world, and no one will ever stop it. The fact that its illegal causes most of the problems that arise from it. Speaking practically, we ought to legalize it, have it operate out of strictly regulated locations where the spread of disease and such can be controlled. It could also be a source of tax revenue for the localities where it is. And taking it out of the criminal world would cut down on a lot of crimes related to it, too.

But as a real life thing? Forget about it. It will never be accepted by a very large percent of the population, for a large variety of reasons, from the religious to the emotional to the petty.

Here is one such example:
If it is legalized, how long before some rabble rouser type makes the argument that the "poor" have the same right to sex shop services as everyone, and that welfare should cover the cost? If they can sell the idea that everyone "deserves" a cell phone, they can sell this too. We need that?