The Political Discussion Thread

[aretood2]

If he truly supported the first amendment, he would go so that a comedian could roast him. But that's one thing he does not want. He doesn't want anyone to criticize him because he is so great, he's greater than Jesus. Next to him, Jesus is a nobody. (Note the sarcasm). So he supports the first amendment, but wont go and plans do do "something" about the press...yeah....The only modern president to miss it (as the article stated) was Reagan, and he only missed it cause he got shot.

[mad_gater]

I find it interesting that the most vocal of Trump's opponents on this board, GF, FH, SR & PH to list 4 off the top of my head are not USA residents/citizens, but the more vocal defenders of Trump's administration such as myself, garhkal & MG are US citizens/residents.
Wonder if our local perspective give us a view that the outsiders lack?

I wouldn't be so quick to label me an ardent defender of his administration. Trump's tendency to flip flop and his tendency put his foot in it....then jam said foot that he just put in it so far into his mouth you'd need the jaws of life to extricate it means I'm not too inclined to trust him as far as I can throw him. However I hope he surprises me and turns out to be better at the job than I'm giving him credit for.

[Gatefan1976]

I wouldn't be so quick to label me an ardent defender of his administration. Trump's tendency to flip flop and his tendency put his foot in it....then jam said foot that he just put in it so far into his mouth you'd need the jaws of life to extricate it means I'm not too inclined to trust him as far as I can throw him. However I hope he surprises me and turns out to be better at the job than I'm giving him credit for.

MG, you just happened to be American, if you were not, you would be on the "other" list.

[Annoyed]

Ran across this while reading the news this morning.

You folks on the left might want to bookmark it.... Be a nice place to hide for the next 8 years

http://www.hillarybeattrump.org/

[Annoyed]

THATS entirely the problem, WHAT does he intend?
Does his personal intent even matter anymore? You folks asked us folks to "see what happens, it could be good", and if you go back to the day he won, you will see a post from me saying "I will watch and see what happens", I was -willing- to see what would happen, and I -have- watched what is happening, and all I see is the country sliding inexorably into totalitarianism, ....

You've watched for slightly over a month since he took office. It's far too early to make judgements.

And don't forget, despite you not believing that his agenda will be good for the country, he is moving rapidly to carry out his campaign promises, and this is good for the country in my and many other people's opinion.

Yes, there are problems and possible improper activity but we really don't know what is going on yet. The biased news media is grabbing onto every scrap of rumor and misinformation it can in hopes of being able to use it as a weapon against the administration. It's going to take quite a while before the truth comes out.

What is "on the right" that you think is good for the USA?

A smaller, cheaper government which will result in lower taxes and less borrowing.
Less government interference in business and personal matters.
Increased protection for the unborn
The reduction of the "nanny state", and an increase in personal responsibility as people realize that the government won't be picking up the tab for stupid choices.
Establishing control of our borders
I could go on, but there are many reasons. Additionally, we can't simply use the textbook definitions of conservative principles, such as free trade because of real world concerns.

But overall, I think the right is better for us than the path the left offers.

Are you willing to risk the power of your party over the prominence, or even existence of your nation?

As I've said, I don't really think the existence of the US as a superpower or even a nation are at risk.

But for the lower middle classes, who have been getting the shaft from BOTH parties for a long time now, which is where most of Trump's support comes from, a change or outright replacement of one or both of them is worth some risk, as opposed to just going down the same old path that has not been working for them.

This has nothing to do with left of right, this is what AMERICA stands for.
What is America now?
Are you the home of the brave and the land of the free?
Are you the shining city on the hill?
Are you the beacon of light to the rest of the world to aspire to?
Are you the land of the American dream?

What ARE you now America?

Those are nice ideals to aspire to, but the rest of the world has taken advantage of them.
How many people have taken advantage of lax immigration enforcement to sneak into or stay in the country illegally, many of them simply tapping the social service systems?

How many US citizens have seen the "American dream" become unreachable for them due to other nations taking advantage of "free trade" deals that we have been stupid enough to sign?

When it comes to international issues, the UN has become pretty much a US haters club, except when they have their hand out to us. They keep trying to come up with ways to establish the right to levy taxes on US citizens or otherwise intervene in our sovereignty with scams such as carbon taxes for energy use or the TPP deal, which Trump wisely removed the US from.

That list of ideals in a good idea, but maybe we ought to take some time and restore those principles for our own citizens for a while.

And this is not exclusive to the US, either. Nationalism is on the rise in many countries all over the world.

[aretood2]

I wouldn't be so quick to label me an ardent defender of his administration. Trump's tendency to flip flop and his tendency put his foot in it....then jam said foot that he just put in it so far into his mouth you'd need the jaws of life to extricate it means I'm not too inclined to trust him as far as I can throw him. However I hope he surprises me and turns out to be better at the job than I'm giving him credit for.

Stop it. You're challenging his notion of black and white world with no grey in it.

The thing I mention to people is that a lot of Republicans don't have any choice but to support Trump. Of course he is more amicable to some of the traditional conservative views and this is a great chance to accomplish those. But that's why so many have fallen behind Trump, hope that he won't be that bad. But that doesn't mean that they'd rather Trump hop on a plane and fly to a secluded island and stay there and let Pence take over.

You've watched for slightly over a month since he took office. It's far too early to make judgements.

How long did you wait before making judgements on Obama?

And don't forget, despite you not believing that his agenda will be good for the country, he is moving rapidly to carry out his campaign promises, and this is good for the country in my and many other people's opinion.

Here's the problem, his views are soundbites. He complains about Mexico, but we have the same exact deficit with Germany, Canada, and Japan as we do with Mexico yet no complaints about them. Does that not strike you as odd?


He wants to bring back jobs, but the jobs he wants to bring back are either obsolete, or cost ineffective. Your solution is to implement some communist style central planning on private companies where you force them to hire X amount of workers and pay them at Y wages. Which you'll have to introduce price controls as soon as you notice that to afford this, companies will have to increase their prices accordingly. This isn't some sort of wild theorizing. It's math and history. It's not crazy liberal thinking either, just visit CATO's website and read up on the literature. You can stand to learn a thing or two about economics.

Yes, there are problems and possible improper activity but we really don't know what is going on yet. The biased news media is grabbing onto every scrap of rumor and misinformation it can in hopes of being able to use it as a weapon against the administration. It's going to take quite a while before the truth comes out.

The problem is that "bias" here means "Anything negative, like anything at all". Bias actually means only telling one side of the story and leaving out certain details OR presenting the story in a certain light. The facts are still there, just emphasized differently.

A smaller, cheaper government which will result in lower taxes and less borrowing.
Less government interference in business and personal matters.

But he plans to increase military spending, increase defense spending in general, and build a multi-billion dollar wall, with no way of actually getting revenue for it (due to tax cuts). This equals debt. Especially considering that his cuts will leave the Government with a lot less than he can actually cut.

Increased protection for the unborn

Unless they're parents are here illegally.

The reduction of the "nanny state", and an increase in personal responsibility as people realize that the government won't be picking up the tab for stupid choices.

I haven't heard any such promises from him. Furthermore, what we need is increased transition to workfare and job (re)training programs. We were heading in the right direction in the 90's with that. We should continue it instead on focusing on going after non-existent SNAP abuses (Note, I said that with some hyperbole*).

Establishing control of our borders

He wants to build a wall to keep terrorists out, but they've all came either through airports or through Canada or were homegrown. Does that not strike you as odd? Sure, the travel ban was a good way to solve that issue (except the whole coming through Canada bit) however it didn't target the right countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia. You might as well have banned Muslims from the Island of Malta (There aren't that many Muslims there if you didn't know).

I could go on, but there are many reasons. Additionally, we can't simply use the textbook definitions of conservative principles, such as free trade because of real world concerns.

The problem with this statement is that the assumptions behind it are in direct defiance to real world concerns. Free trade is a true and established concept for any free market economy. The idea of comparative advantage is as old as Capitalism itself, in fact both were "invented" by the same dude, John Smith. It was a bulwark of Classical Liberalism.

The reason why you don't like it is because cost ineffective industries have moved to areas where they are cost effective. But that's just the thing, anything short of socialistic policies will not fix the underlying issues of simple free market economics.

But overall, I think the right is better for us than the path the left offers.

I would agree, but your idea of "right" is far different than Ronald Reagan's idea of "right".

Those are nice ideals to aspire to, but the rest of the world has taken advantage of them.
How many people have taken advantage of lax immigration enforcement to sneak into or stay in the country illegally, many of them simply tapping the social service systems?

Lax immigration enforcement? Spoken like someone whose family has never had to deal with the modern immigration bureaucracy. I mean, how many people did Obama and Bush have to deport for you to say that the law was being enforced? They deported some 8 million and blocked entry to countless others.

How many US citizens have seen the "American dream" become unreachable for them due to other nations taking advantage of "free trade" deals that we have been stupid enough to sign?

What is the American Dream to you? Because from where I am sitting, it's still very much viable.

When it comes to international issues, the UN has become pretty much a US haters club, except when they have their hand out to us. They keep trying to come up with ways to establish the right to levy taxes on US citizens or otherwise intervene in our sovereignty with scams such as carbon taxes for energy use or the TPP deal, which Trump wisely removed the US from.

The UN had nothing to do with TPP. But now that the US is out of the way, China is extremely grateful. That really made Trump a popular figure for the People's communist party.

That list of ideals in a good idea, but maybe we ought to take some time and restore those principles for our own citizens for a while.

Land of the brave? That means people should stop acting like a bunch of cowards throwing their freedoms away just because the government says there's a boogeyman out to get them. Take a look in the mirror, a good look.

And this is not exclusive to the US, either. Nationalism is on the rise in many countries all over the world.

Last time that happened, we got the rise of Fascism.

[Womble]

Last time that happened, we got the rise of Fascism.

And the fall of absolute monarchy along with the abolition of serfdom.

[aretood2]

And the fall of absolute monarchy along with the abolition of serfdom.

I originally wrote a lengthy post going through the fate of serfdoms in different areas of the world but then realized I needed clarification. Do you mean nationalism as the pure definition of the word or nationalism as the phenomena discussed by historians that had its roots in the late 18th century but manifested itself in the 19th century? Because that's the one we are talking about.

Considering that much of what ended serfdom in Western Europe happened in the 18th century as a result of everything but nationalism. East Asia has a much different story (one of serfdom and a Japanese idea of a god leading the country and being #1 and having to spread the superior Japanese way to the lesser Asians, but that's neither here nor there.)

[garhkal]

You have no protection under the constitution or law to own whatever you want.
None, zip, zilch, nada, stuff all.
If trump pushes through the federal laws on pot, that will become illegal in states where it is currently legal and they can not just collect your pot, but put you in jail as well for breaking the law

First off, pot is already illegal along with crack, heroin etc BY federal law. IT just has not been enforced as such in those states who legalized it..

Excuse me, anyone behaving like bigots can be sued into obscurity, the law does not target "Christians", it targets bigotry.

Then why have we NEVER seen these LGBTQ lawsuits, go after Islamic stores/muslim owned facilities?? IT only ever seems to be Christian ones. ERGO to me that IS targeting christians.

Are you the home of the brave and the land of the free?

WE were, but these days we seem to be the home of the perpetually offended and land of the "I will sue" generation.

[Gatefan1976]

You've watched for slightly over a month since he took office. It's far too early to make judgements.

Is it?
Why?

And don't forget, despite you not believing that his agenda will be good for the country, he is moving rapidly to carry out his campaign promises, and this is good for the country in my and many other people's opinion.

His moving rapidly does not somehow justify his agenda, and what is his agenda?
And what has he rapidly moved on?
Obama rapidly moved on closing Gitmo, we know how well that worked.
The wall is not built, nor has funding been approved.
Banning people from coming? That went down well.
Bringing back jobs? Sorry, speak to the companies involved and his threats and bluster were not what motivated their decisions.
What else did he promise?
Winning? Making America Great?
I see no evidence of either.

Yes, there are problems and possible improper activity but we really don't know what is going on yet.

If someone said that to you about Obama or Hillary, or ANY lefty, your head would explode. In fact, go back a few hundred pages and re-read how many times you have assigned blame and asking people to be locked up (oh hey, there is another promise)
WikiLeaks proved it, but leaks proving trumps actions, from your own government, that's all just lies.........

The biased news media is grabbing onto every scrap of rumor and misinformation it can in hopes of being able to use it as a weapon against the administration. It's going to take quite a while before the truth comes out.

Go on, take that extra step, call them the enemy of the people, you know you want to........
How will the "truth" come out, when you have already decided on what the truth is, absent of fact mind you.

A smaller, cheaper government which will result in lower taxes and less borrowing.

Building a wall
Expanding the police and INS/ICE
Expanding the military
Building up nuclear stockpiles (that's a good one, it broke the USSR before)
How are you paying for this? Smaller taxes?

Less government interference in business and personal matters.
Increased protection for the unborn

Interesting that you put those two next to each other because the latter is a direct result of the former.

The reduction of the "nanny state", and an increase in personal responsibility as people realize that the government won't be picking up the tab for stupid choices.

You do realise that things like PP is exercising personal responsibility, right?

Establishing control of our borders.

We'll make a 30ft tall wall, nothing will defeat it, except a 31ft piece of rope.

I could go on, but there are many reasons. Additionally, we can't simply use the textbook definitions of conservative principles, such as free trade because of real world concerns.

Real world concerns?
You would have to understand them first.

But overall, I think the right is better for us than the path the left offers.

What do you think the left offers?

As I've said, I don't really think the existence of the US as a superpower or even a nation are at risk.

Then you are short sighted. Oh, you will remain a superpower, in terms of military might, but in no other way.

But for the lower middle classes, who have been getting the shaft from BOTH parties for a long time now, which is where most of Trump's support comes from, a change or outright replacement of one or both of them is worth some risk, as opposed to just going down the same old path that has not been working for them.

Do you think that the lower middle class -knows- what would be good for it?
I'm not saying that as some kind of "liberal elite", but an honest question. Do you think that they know what is best for your country?
Consider this. In 2008, your economy crashed, in 2009 a president brought you back from that, in 2010, republicans took over 2 parts of the government and made it clear that they would do whatever it would take to stop him from doing anything -even if it helped them-.
This is what middle America has done with it's control.

Those are nice ideals to aspire to, but the rest of the world has taken advantage of them.

Nice ideals?
They are the founding principles of American exceptionalism, the basis of patriotism, and now that they are "inconvenient", they are disposable?
I don't know exactly what to say to that.

How many people have taken advantage of lax immigration enforcement to sneak into or stay in the country illegally, many of them simply tapping the social service systems?

No one has a solid answer for that. For every article you can cite, I can find one de-bunking it. Some cite 113 billion which is what trump was waving around, however that particular study has been torn to pieces. Some say that there is a net gain (around 11 billion) due to state and local taxes which even illegals pay.
Again, no one really knows.

How many US citizens have seen the "American dream" become unreachable for them due to other nations taking advantage of "free trade" deals that we have been stupid enough to sign?

What do you think "free trade" deals are?

When it comes to international issues, the UN has become pretty much a US haters club, except when they have their hand out to us. They keep trying to come up with ways to establish the right to levy taxes on US citizens or otherwise intervene in our sovereignty with scams such as carbon taxes for energy use or the TPP deal, which Trump wisely removed the US from.

Such terrible things like the Paris climate agreement, something -everyone- would have to go with, not just the US you mean?
As for the TTP, it -was- essentially written by businesses, so of course they looked after their own interests first, but believe me, of all the countries willing to sign on, the US got the best deal of the lot. It won't matter that it died, another country will pick it up, modify it and just take your place, probably China.

That list of ideals in a good idea, but maybe we ought to take some time and restore those principles for our own citizens for a while.

You won't, you don't care about them, and have said as much.

And this is not exclusive to the US, either. Nationalism is on the rise in many countries all over the world.

It is the doom of men that they forget. I always thought it would take at least one generation of people removed from world war to want to start another one, it seems not to be so.

[Gatefan1976]

First off, pot is already illegal along with crack, heroin etc BY federal law. IT just has not been enforced as such in those states who legalized it..

You miss the point.

Then why have we NEVER seen these LGBTQ lawsuits, go after Islamic stores/muslim owned facilities?? IT only ever seems to be Christian ones. ERGO to me that IS targeting christians.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...n-gay-rights-/
Just because you do not know, does not mean it does not happen.

WE were, but these days we seem to be the home of the perpetually offended and land of the "I will sue" generation.

Really?
Remind me again -which- generation is pushing this crap?
Remind me again -how- many lawsuits trump has filed.

[Falcon Horus]

Does everything boil down to "what group are we oppressing this week" to you?

If you paid attention you would have realized as I was actually referring to representation in this thread.

Why else would I have said we're missing some muslims -- considering they are already banned from coming into your country.

She was referring to the various groups that are represented by the few here.

He got it.

No country has a monopoly on stupid.

#45 will want that title now too -- just like he wants the biggest arsenal of nuclear weapons.

I was wondering about how that Iodine-131 got into our atmosphere.

Someone's been playing around with something nuclear up north.

What is Russian for "oops"??
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world...s-in-1.2988161

According to google translate --> oy.

Man i bet this plqce has been insane the past few months!!!

The wild west...

Another factor is that unlike Democrats, Republican voters will hold their candidates accountable.

You mean, the angry constituents at the the town halls, which have been branded "paid protesters".

Mmm... yeah... working out great so far.

fair enough besides the real naive innocent one here is FH

What for?
Cause I though he wouldn't get elected? I didn't factor in the stupidity of the american stupid sphere. Not going to make that mistake twice.

IF your assumption that he is intending a takeover of this country or something similar, it might not. But really don't think that is what he intends. He is not likely to make the list of best presidents ever.

Bannon has already openly admitted the heads in place of all the departments are there to destroy them.
I'd say, it's a good bet, he really doesn't care about the country one bit.

What is America now?

The laughing stock of the world.

Are you the home of the brave and the land of the free?

Brave --> the resistance
Free --> nope, not so much.

Are you the shining city on the hill?

Only if the sun shines.

Are you the beacon of light to the rest of the world to aspire to?

Not anymore.

Are you the land of the American dream?

What is the American dream?

What ARE you now America?

Ridiculed at every corner.

It was a nice evenly spread out mix of Brexit and #45 yesterday at a friend's b'day party. The people from the UK (all voted remain) also discussed his impending visit -- wether it will be state or not is yet up in the air.

Does the snowflake need a safe space?
http://thehill.com/homenews/news/321...ondents-dinner

It would require him to have an intelligent conversation, with big words. No can do.

If he truly supported the first amendment, he would go so that a comedian could roast him. But that's one thing he does not want. He doesn't want anyone to criticize him because he is so great, he's greater than Jesus. Next to him, Jesus is a nobody. (Note the sarcasm). So he supports the first amendment, but wont go and plans do do "something" about the press...yeah....

He's the greatest.

The only modern president to miss it (as the article stated) was Reagan, and he only missed it cause he got shot.

I say that's a very good excuse.

You've watched for slightly over a month since he took office. It's far too early to make judgements.

First impressions and all.... I'd say judgement has passed -- FAIL!

And don't forget, despite you not believing that his agenda will be good for the country, he is moving rapidly to carry out his campaign promises, and this is good for the country in my and many other people's opinion.

You still believe he's going to make you a happy middle class person, don't you...

I just can't... it's so sad.

The biased news media is grabbing onto every scrap of rumor and misinformation it can in hopes of being able to use it as a weapon against the administration. It's going to take quite a while before the truth comes out.

Ha, the favored line "it must be fake news"... What truth might that be? Spread by Fox News? Breitbart? His mouth only?

You're fallen down the rabbit hole.

A smaller, cheaper government which will result in lower taxes and less borrowing.

ROTFL

Increased protection for the unborn

Yes, the mothers are hosts. Why should we care about them.

Establishing control of our borders

Canada too? Or only Mexico?
What about all those beaches?

As I've said, I don't really think the existence of the US as a superpower or even a nation are at risk.

But for the lower middle classes, who have been getting the shaft from BOTH parties for a long time now, which is where most of Trump's support comes from, a change or outright replacement of one or both of them is worth some risk, as opposed to just going down the same old path that has not been working for them.

Oh man, he really doesn't care about the middle class... not one bit.

...the TPP deal, which Trump wisely removed the US from.

Oh yeah, wisely... China loves you for it.

First off, pot is already illegal along with crack, heroin etc BY federal law. IT just has not been enforced as such in those states who legalized it.

Let's outlaw pot -- cause pharma doesn't like that there is something out there that has actual health benefits to people with epilepsy, cancer, Parkinson's... I mean... no can do.

Then why have we NEVER seen these LGBTQ lawsuits, go after Islamic stores/muslim owned facilities?? IT only ever seems to be Christian ones. ERGO to me that IS targeting christians.

Maybe because there have, as of yet, not been any complaints about it.

[Annoyed]

If you paid attention you would have realized as I was actually referring to representation in this thread.

Why else would I have said we're missing some muslims -- considering they are already banned from coming into your country.

Did you miss the part about I wasn't talking about racial/ethnic/whatever group? I was saying that the general intelligence level of this bunch of people is somewhat higher than the average in the U.S?

Bannon has already openly admitted the heads in place of all the departments are there to destroy them.
I'd say, it's a good bet, he really doesn't care about the country one bit.

Or perhaps these departments, particularly the EPA, have grossly overstepped their authority over the years?
One of the things Trump said he was going to do was reshape the government of this country, reigning in its excesses that it has developed over the years.
He's just carrying out campaign promises. Why are you surprised?

[aretood2]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...n-gay-rights-/
Just because you do not know, does not mean it does not happen.

Not sure you linked the right article because it seems to do more to make garkhal's point than it does to disprove it.

"But Ms. Loesch isn’t counting on it. “Waiting for the militant progressive supporters of gay wedding cake to start threatening and protesting these Muslim ran bakeries,” she said in a Facebook post. “I think we will be waiting a long time.”"

That pretty much sums it up.

Maybe because there have, as of yet, not been any complaints about it.

Maybe you should read Gatefan's article...especially the last two paragraphs. It's pretty clear that people are going after Christians only and leaving Muslims alone.

Did you miss the part about I wasn't talking about racial/ethnic/whatever group? I was saying that the general intelligence level of this bunch of people is somewhat higher than the average in the U.S?


Or perhaps these departments, particularly the EPA, have grossly overstepped their authority over the years?
One of the things Trump said he was going to do was reshape the government of this country, reigning in its excesses that it has developed over the years.
He's just carrying out campaign promises. Why are you surprised?

About that. How exactly is he taking power from DC back to the people? By forcing states regarding pot? Or by forcing states to use state funds and resources to do the Federal government's job? Or by forcing states to abandon their own environmental policies? Or by forcing states to do XYZ to their education system? If anything, this looks like same old same old to me.

[Gatefan1976]

Not sure you linked the right article because it seems to do more to make garkhal's point than it does to disprove it.

"But Ms. Loesch isn’t counting on it. “Waiting for the militant progressive supporters of gay wedding cake to start threatening and protesting these Muslim ran bakeries,” she said in a Facebook post. “I think we will be waiting a long time.”"

That pretty much sums it up.

Sounds like confirmation bias.
The article told both sides of the story, no more. The fact is, someone running a "sting" would have no legal basis to sue as they were going in under false pretences. If a LGBT person did choose to sue, they could, so I utterly reject the notion that the law itself is biased. That no one may have -yet- is utterly irrelevant, and it's not like you to miss that distinction Tood.

Maybe you should read Gatefan's article...especially the last two paragraphs. It's pretty clear that people are going after Christians only and leaving Muslims alone.

Uh huh.

About that. How exactly is he taking power from DC back to the people? By forcing states regarding pot? Or by forcing states to use state funds and resources to do the Federal government's job? Or by forcing states to abandon their own environmental policies? Or by forcing states to do XYZ to their education system? If anything, this looks like same old same old to me.

If it's what you want, it's small government, see the example of staying out of peoples rights by telling woman weather they can have an abortion.
Government so small it can fit...............................