The Political Discussion Thread

[mad_gater]

believing that a millionaire wouldn't eventually become bankrupt in the face of ever-increasing tax burdens also shows an ignorance of basic arithmetic..if the government keeps taking higher and higher percentages out of people's pay.....eventually no one will have anything left......some "utopia" eh?

[SoulReaver]

cept I mentioned net income not just income

[Gatefan1976]

Every time he tells us to believe him we take a shot.

"The Next Day"

How did I get to Gatefan 's house?

My house attracts truthful and honourable people.

[Annoyed]

believing that a millionaire wouldn't eventually become bankrupt in the face of ever-increasing tax burdens also shows an ignorance of basic arithmetic..if the government keeps taking higher and higher percentages out of people's pay.....eventually no one will have anything left......some "utopia" eh?

Or if the government mandates wages above the value of what the employee provides, and numerous other ideas like that.

I think there really is a very basic difference between how liberals and smart folks evaluate information. Liberals think with their hearts and emotions, they just imagine how they think the would would be more fair and try to legislate it, whether its workable or not, while those on the right tend to use a more logical thought process, with emotion having very little influence.
I dunno, maybe it's a birth defect.

[SoulReaver]

Liberals think with their hearts and emotions, they just imagine how they think the would would be more fair and try to legislate it, whether its workable or not, while those on the right tend to use a more logical thought process, with emotion having very little influence.
I dunno, maybe it's a birth defect.

yeah man & remember, be a Patriot™! 9/11 never forget! Homeland Security Act FTW! never forget! you're with us or you're against us! death penalty to those against us! Never Forget©!
(terrorist terrorist terrorist 9/11 9/11 God bless America etc.)

[Falcon Horus]

here's an even better example: believing in the "merits" of socialism when it has proven to be nothing but an absolute failure every single time it has been tried

Please, go back and look at the top ten minimum wage countries.

[SoulReaver]

here's an even better example: believing in the "merits" of socialism when it has proven to be nothing but an absolute failure every single time it has been tried

here's the best example: ditto for capitalism (the real deal)

[Gatefan1976]

you continue to demonstrate the ignorance of basic economics necessary for collectivism to gain a foothold...so if the shoe fits....

You continue to show a disturbing lack of............ everything.

Raising the minimum wage...aside from the fact that wages SHOULD be based on the value of the job skill in question (and burger-flipping is by no means a skill worth a higher wage than what most soldiers see in their lifetime)

Do you know what minimum wage means? Raising the minimum wage in no way stops people from being paid -more- than it.

......what do you think will happen when the government sticks its nose in where it doesn't belong telling business owners what to pay out, thereby representing an increase in the owner's cost of doing business?

It does not happen without cutting taxation on businesses. The US taxation rate on business is high to say the least. In fact, IIRC, it is the highest in the western world. But no, cause and effect an manipulating the entire system to make all people better off is beyond you. TAX INCRESE TAX INCEASE THE SKY IS FALLING!!!

The business owner will simply either raise the cost of the product/service, thereby pi$$ing off the consumer and negating the buying power of the extra government-mandated wages, lay off workers (pi$$ing off a lot of workers), or both.....so essentially what winds up happening is a wage inflation/cost inflation death spiral not so different from what happened in Germany between WW1 and WW2

Nothing can be done, enjoy your 8 dollar an hour job, because nothing can be done about it. I will enjoy my $15+ dollar an hour job when I go back to work.
If nothing can be done about it, what change do you think anyone can make?

sure you could have the government enact laws that would make it illegal for a business owner to increase the cost of his products and/or lay off people whenever the government-mandated minimum wages increase.....but the problem then becomes that their costs of doing business are continually increasing.....without anyway to make up for the lost revenue....in which case the business owner would likely find himself bankrupt in short order

Do you know what you are even arguing for? Protectionism for business, the big boys that, according to people like Annoyed, and I daresay yourself -don't pay any tax-. In essence, you are a slave arguing that your master is a good guy because he feeds you his scraps.
Well Done sir, well done.

This is why collectivism in ANY form has never worked....it is fundamentally impossible to spend a country into prosperity

Who mentioned collectivism?
In addition, how do you think companies become big?

[Gatefan1976]

believing that a millionaire wouldn't eventually become bankrupt in the face of ever-increasing tax burdens also shows an ignorance of basic arithmetic..if the government keeps taking higher and higher percentages out of people's pay.....eventually no one will have anything left......some "utopia" eh?

They don't.
Shows an ignorance of how taxation works at even a basic level.

[Gatefan1976]

Please, go back and look at the top ten minimum wage countries.

Wow FH, how do two failed socialist nanny states with out of control taxation fill slots 1 and 3 in their post tax spending power!!
That just does not work!!

[Annoyed]

Nothing can be done, enjoy your 8 dollar an hour job, because nothing can be done about it. I will enjoy my $15+ dollar an hour job when I go back to work.
If nothing can be done about it, what change do you think anyone can make?

Ok, let's use that example. Person A makes 8 bucks an hour. Person B makes 15 bucks an hour.
At some point in their daily lives, person B uses the services of person A, priced at the level that pays A his 8/hr.

Now, along comes a mandatory 15.00 hour wage. Person A is delighted. And of course the cost of person A's products or services rises to cover the wage increase.

But since person B doesn't get a raise, the only effects he sees is the increased cost of the products & services of person A.
Now, remember I said earlier that it is always the lower middle class who pays for this foolishness? Who is affected more by the mandatory $15 hour wage? The lower middle class stiff who made 15 bucks before this change, or the rich guy who may not even notice the difference?

[aretood2]

I'm afraid you have me confused with somebody else.

But as to the overall thrust of what that class is trying to do, white folks do not have to feel guilty about policies that existed over 100 years ago. No white man living has legally owned another person in this country. Slavery still exists, but illegally, often for the sex trade. Not the same thing.

Do you know what White Fragility is? Do you know what people in black studies et al talk about? I saw nothing in the article or any article that demanded that white people feel guilty about anything.

WHY?
Think of anything you could apply to Hillary, her lies, her brain farts, her support of stupid idea's etc and consider that it took some 25 years to collect that baggage.
Trump has done it -in under 2 years-.


No, they don't want to give everyone what they want. They want to give longevity to America.
Welfare? Get your gubment hands off my Medicaid!! (cause that's not welfare, I paid for that stuff)
Free education? Cause breeding more Podunk dog catchers is a -good idea-??
Healthcare? Not my fault you got sick and because we can't fix the problem cheaply and easily by sending people to DOCTORS when they need them, we send them to the emergency room instead when the costs are vastly more..........

The right cannot see past it's own needs of the now, and it's strongest proponents stepped into the boots of the people who died to defend them, not because it was "good for them", but because they wanted something better for the future.
"When I was I kid, I went out and got a job, and bought a house!!"
Forget the fact that some of the dog catchers pushed the bodies of vets out of the way to fill those jobs, or the fact that you were paid a living wage, or the fact that housing was affordable, or the fact that you got all but free education, or that banks had limits on interest rates far below were they stand now.
No, The "greatest generation" did it all on their lonesome...............


No, it does not.
If a rich person can evade tax, that does not mean that you suddenly change tax brackets to make up for the shortfall. You still get the same income tax rate because your tax rate is in no way based on what other people pay. What it -can- mean however is local taxes go up because the "ebil gubment" cannot give as much support to the states as they might want, or need.
Who want's to "cut your taxes" all the time?
Republicans
WHAT taxes do they cut?
Yours? Oh hell NO.
Cut inheritance tax, cause you will be leaving 5.5 million dollars to your kids............
Cut corporate tax, cause "they will pass it on" (even though your living wage equivalent has been dropping for years)
But, they promised tax cuts, and they delivered.
Is the Left any better?
No, not really, except for one point. Raising the minimum wage is something Bernie busted his arse to get on the agenda and I don't think the left can back off that now without becoming even more of a paper tiger than Obama is. The 2018 midterms would destroy -any- power the democrats have left in the congress and the senate.
Not only that, raising the minimum wage helps -everyone-. Basic math dictates that if I make 15 dollars an hour, EVEN IF my tax was raised to 33% (which would not happen) I would have 10 bucks an hour left, in comparison to my 10% now on my 8 bucks which leaves me 7.20 an hour. Not only that, but even given that extreme example, the "gubment" get's 5 bucks an hour, rather than 80c an hour.
Imagine what they could do with 5 times the revenue.........
Why, they could pay for healthcare, and schools..........
They could even stand to loose a dollar and cut business tax on small businesses so they could thrive.

But then again, I live in some kind of socialist utopia............

Even with cutting taxes many small businesses in my area simply cannot afford to pay such a high wage. It will have a spill over effect. Such a steep increase will have steep consequences. The question is, where would these businesses get the money to pay? I mean sure, Wal-Mart and big oil and so on could probably handle it without too much of a price hike, if any at all. But not all employers are that rich.

believing that a millionaire wouldn't eventually become bankrupt in the face of ever-increasing tax burdens also shows an ignorance of basic arithmetic..if the government keeps taking higher and higher percentages out of people's pay.....eventually no one will have anything left......some "utopia" eh?

Those would have to be some pretty huge, I mean massive, tax increases. Like more taxes than any nation has ever collected in human history....except maybe the taxes that France collected from the poor before the revolution. But that was from the poor.

[Annoyed]

Do you know what White Fragility is? Do you know what people in black studies et al talk about? I saw nothing in the article or any article that demanded that white people feel guilty about anything.

A skunk by any other name....

[Gatefan1976]

Ok, let's use that example. Person A makes 8 bucks an hour. Person B makes 15 bucks an hour.
At some point in their daily lives, person B uses the services of person A, priced at the level that pays A his 8/hr.

Ok.

Now, along comes a mandatory 15.00 hour wage. Person A is delighted. And of course the cost of person A's products or services rises to cover the wage increase.

1: Person A does not exist in this sentence because what you mean is Business A
2: If I lower the tax rate on -Business- A, it can afford to pay -person- A more money with a minimal cut to it's profit margin, if any at all.
What you are missing here is that these changes to not operate -independently- of one another. I don't just "raise the minimum wage" IF you did that, then yes, it can break the system, but you don't. You Adjust one cog, you must adjust them all. Trickle Down economics, the myth that has been sold to you is no more than that because it relies on a non thinking, non feeling entitiy (businesses and corporations) to do something that is against it's very reason to exist, make more money for itself.

But since person B doesn't get a raise,

Assumption based on no facts. Raising the minimum wage would hopefully force people to engage in enterprise bargaining either on the individual level, or via collective bargaining through unions. Person B who is probably better trained or skilled has a perfect case to ask for a comparable wage increase as person A. In addition, you could force this via raising wages by a percentage basis each year for all people in the low to middle income brackets. It's a far more heavy handed approach, granted, but it can be done. By the time Person A is at 15 dollars an hour, person B is enjoying their 27 odd dollars an hour.
Again, you are fiddling with only one cog in your example.

the only effects he sees is the increased cost of the products & services of person A.

Again, assumption based in no facts. In Addition, if it "just can't work", why does it work in other countries?

Now, remember I said earlier that it is always the lower middle class who pays for this foolishness? Who is affected more by the mandatory $15 hour wage? The lower middle class stiff who made 15 bucks before this change, or the rich guy who may not even notice the difference?

1: Increasing minimum wage would not happen in a vacuum.
2: Person B would no longer be making 15 dollars an hour.
3: The Rich guy should not have to notice it as it does not affect them.
Person A becomes as well off as person B, Person B becomes better off than they were, and rich guy does not even care.
How insane is that!!

[aretood2]

A skunk by any other name....

Now you lost me.