The Political Discussion Thread

[SoulReaver]

some stats would be most welcome

about NY I especially remember reading about that POS mayor Rudolph Mussolini in the 90s & the corruption under his reign

[Annoyed]

I would start by googling the term "US cities by political party", the results bring back a number of articles on this and related topics.
The top result for me is: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...merica/265686/

This article contains a nice but difficult to use animated map.

http://www.princeton.edu/~rvdb/WebGL/Election2012f.html

You should be able to clearly see the divide; heavily populated areas such as cities tend to be blue, while suburban and rural areas tend to skew Republican.

To me, for someone living in this country, this kind of thing just goes with the lay of the land; it's just the way things are. But I can understand a foreigner not knowing this.

When commenting on a culture, it is much better if the person doing the commenting actually lives in the society he is commenting on; things like this are just common knowledge to people living here.

This is why I generally don't say much about issues primarily affecting other countries, unless it blows up into a worldwide story like Brexit, or the Greece financial debacle. I don't know the situation as the locals do.

[SoulReaver]

ok but in the end the police in those cities don't support your 2nd amendment
even in Democratic cities police are still "conservative at heart" right?

[Falcon Horus]

don't know what punishment christianity has for or if it's even punishable, but would you rather live in the Vatican or in Iran?

Clearly, the LSoS, who is against private gun ownership, is trying to pin the blame for this on the the victim having a legally registered firearm, rather than the (apparently) trigger happy cop.

And again, I ask you, where is the victim blaming?

He talks about the possibly licensed gun, not that it was Castile's fault he had a possibly licensed gun. You and me are interpreting that bit of text quite differently, it seems.

Victim blaming would have been:

He shouldn't have had that possibly licensed gun in his car. It's his own fault he had it there, shouldn't have had it there. Notwithstanding concealed carry and license-free guns are the law in Minnesota. If the gun hadn't been there, he probably wouldn't have been shot.

[Annoyed]

And again, I ask you, where is the victim blaming?

He talks about the possibly licensed gun, not that it was Castile's fault he had a possibly licensed gun. You and me are interpreting that bit of text quite differently, it seems.

Victim blaming would have been:

He shouldn't have had that possibly licensed gun in his car. It's his own fault he had it there, shouldn't have had it there. Notwithstanding concealed carry and license-free guns are the law in Minnesota. If the gun hadn't been there, he probably wouldn't have been shot.

Yes, we are. The LSoS is citing his having a legal gun as a cause. I see this as akin to a rapist trying to defend his actions by saying that the girl was wearing provocative clothing. She didn't DO anything to "ask for it", but he's trying to blame her clothes, just as the LSoS is trying to blame the legal gun which had not been put into play, let alone drawn and prepared to fire.

[SoulReaver]

And again, I ask you, where is the victim blaming?

He talks about the possibly licensed gun, not that it was Castile's fault he had a possibly licensed gun. You and me are interpreting that bit of text quite differently, it seems.

Victim blaming would have been:

He shouldn't have had that possibly licensed gun in his car. It's his own fault he had it there, shouldn't have had it there. Notwithstanding concealed carry and license-free guns are the law in Minnesota. If the gun hadn't been there, he probably wouldn't have been shot.

Yes, we are. The LSoS is citing his having a legal gun as a cause. I see this as akin to a rapist trying to defend his actions by saying that the girl was wearing provocative clothing

actually that's not comparable (the guy who was shot wasn't even provoking anyone since he never revealed he had a gun)

[garhkal]

Why do you believe people should have guns?
Is it just the NRA interpretation of the 2nd Amendment, or do you think that it is protection from an "out of control government"?

Several reasons. Some use them for protection, others for hunting, others cause they collect them. BUT depending on your reading of the 2nd amendment AND other stuff, it generally is for the citizenry for in cases of militias and such.. Remember most militias in the past DID provide their own weaponry..

From the BLM point of view, the government -is- out of control and rather than grab a gun and start shooting, they protest.

Or in some cases, they mix up protesting with rioting, burning buildings down etc..

That inconveniences some people, so they are "bad" Some even do -actually- bad stuff, so that justifies the "they are all bad.

Its not just the inconvenience though. Would or SHOULD they be held as accessories to someone's death if cause OF them protesting/blocking a freeway, emergency services were late getting to a fire or medical emergency?

How pissed off would those protestors be if it was one of THEIR family members still at home that DID die cause those fire trucks/ambulances couldn't get there in time..??

You are smarter than this, don't sink to that level.

Sorry but when the Potus seems to always be quick to condemn the cops, yet seems to have to be shamed into condemning the thugs, and even then rarely has spoken out against all the shootings in his OWN HOME state/city (Chicago), it is easy to see him as being very one sided..

Trained by the US Military.
Local paper used his military photo as frontpage image.

From some news sites, it seems he was supposed to have received an Other than Honorable discharge for sexual harassment claims, but it somehow got rated UP to 'general'..

First drone attack on US soil?

Na.. It was all skynet's fault!

When they can, will you still be complaining about women in the unit?

If they can do so without having the standards lowered, sure.. If they can do so After the standards get lowered, then one wonders WHY they were set so high in the first place, and why not lower them for ALL, not just women..

Because the cop probably thought he was going to go for the gun instead of the ID.

Hence, as per some CCW instructors i know, have the ID already out BEFORE the cop even gets to your door side.. Better yet, get one of those neck pouches that hold IDs and such, and store the CCW permits and gun license in THAT, so when you get asked for your paperwork by the cop, you can just go to your neck to draw out the pouch and hand IT with the docs in to the cop.. No need to go to your wallet, which often is on the same side/general area as the gun, that way the chance of someone mistaking your movement of going FOR your id as going for your gun is reduced way down... (note, not eliminated).

Isn't this a case of the pot calling the kettle black?

Sure is...

So sodomy should be punished, ummm, they do know that straight couples do that as well, should everyone on Earth, probably including themselves be punished ?

Exactly. By the definition even getting a BJ counts as sodomy.

Police chiefs, sheriffs divided over gun control measures

That cannot be said. There is a clear divide among law enforcement personnel regarding the 2nd amendment. Typically, larger city police chiefs are against private ownership, while county sheriffs are generally in favor of 2nd amendment rights.

A key difference is that city police chiefs are usually appointed by the city administration, which is often Democratic as most elected large city officials are, while the county sheriffs have to face the voters directly every so often.

Not surprising to me that there is that divide.

Look at the various "secession" movements in various states that have sprung up because the large, urban areas of a state dominate the state's politics to the point where the rural areas have no effective voice in state government. My own state, NY has such a movement due to the overwhelming influence of NYC and Albany, which are both overwhelmingly Democratic. Aside from the major cities, NY is mostly a red state, but its electoral votes haven't gone to a Republican since 1984, Reagan's second run. Colorado has such a movement, due to the Democratic influence of Denver.

Pity the people in all the rural spots of CA don't do the same so the 3 big cities (LA/SF/SD) don't pretty much control all the state..

[SoulReaver]

Hence, as per some CCW instructors i know, have the ID already out BEFORE the cop even gets to your door side.. Better yet, get one of those neck pouches

exactly
also speak softly
don't look them in the eyes, look down
preferably begin your sentences with "my lord"
follow all these guidelines, know your place & you'll maximise your chances of survival

[Annoyed]

Or in some cases, they mix up protesting with rioting, burning buildings down etc..

And looting. Never forget the looting. Although how stealing that electronic gear or whatever is supposed to be related to their petitioning the government for redress of grievances is quite beyond me.

I get the protesting. Really, I do. The Minn. shooting, based on what we know so far was clearly a cop gone wild. And the folks affected by that have every right to protest. But anyone using such as an excuse to steal is just low-life scum, and should be treated as such.

Hence, as per some CCW instructors i know, have the ID already out BEFORE the cop even gets to your door side.. Better yet, get one of those neck pouches that hold IDs and such, and store the CCW permits and gun license in THAT, so when you get asked for your paperwork by the cop, you can just go to your neck to draw out the pouch and hand IT with the docs in to the cop.. No need to go to your wallet, which often is on the same side/general area as the gun, that way the chance of someone mistaking your movement of going FOR your id as going for your gun is reduced way down... (note, not eliminated).

Sorry, I can't dismiss the Minn. shooting as the cop thought he was going for a weapon. He TOLD the cop he was armed. That's not something you do if you're planning on shooting him. As I've said elsewhere, unless there is information that we don't have yet, I can see no justification for the Minn. shooting. That cop was just trigger happy, scared, or maybe even on some sort of power trip. I don't know. But as far as I can tell, he just murdered that motorist.

Not surprising to me that there is that divide.

Pity the people in all the rural spots of CA don't do the same so the 3 big cities (LA/SF/SD) don't pretty much control all the state..

This goes back to the old saw about "Democracy can only survive until the people discover they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury" combined with human tendencies to want to live in too small an area for their numbers.

Cram too many into too small an area, you overload resources, housing, jobs and such, and the ones who fall behind start voting for whomever promises them the most free stuff. There goes your state as the concentrated areas of poverty now dominate your state's politics. Game over.

[aretood2]

I supported what they were trying to do, NOT the method.. Just as i support BLM's desire to get the message out of racism etc, but NOT how they are doing it.

Fair enough. I too don't like their methods of blocking traffic and trashing everything in sight. This militant mentality is just wrong and counter productive.

good thing you added the quotes

The quotations are there because those protections are meant to protect people in general, not criminals. It so happens that criminals are people. That's a distinction that many people fail to get, and it is my firm belief that police officers don't always get that message. Those protections are there to protect law abiding citizens from human error (that is from cops making mistakes in suspecting innocent people of committing crimes). Had Castile's killer understood that and respected the rule book, he wouldn't have drawn the gun and had the driver raise his hands in what was a routine traffic stop. More on the traffic stop later.

don't know your own laws? in the US when an officer's killed his killers (if they're not from a privileged circle themselves) automatically get aggravating circumstances
check out Cecil Clayton (honest hard working taxpayer - in a way capitalism killed him)
now try find 1 counter-example where someone of his class got away with a light sentence
know who gets the real protections? try what Diaz Zeferino's killers did & count the minutes it takes till you end up behind bars
still beats "the big'uns are always rite" by a long shot :/

You see class warfare, I see a simple cost/benefit analysis. It's nothing purposeful and deliberate. A rich person can make your life hell, therefore as a self preservation tactic, people are more careful. A police officer would, being a person too, would thus make that very human determination. This is why police need to be trained with civil rights in mind, allow their capable conscience to make morality part of that cost/benefit analysis. I know, Marxists don't like that little term, but it is a true aspect of the human condition, and cops are after all humans.

don't need to it's the same all over by varying degrees
the US being the 1st world power & fancying itself as a Free nation of Equal opportunities etc. obviously it gets the most coverage
(I remember reading about that & the pig who did this wasn't punished either) I didn't say race wasn't a problem I said it was no race problem
it's still a class problem (primarily)
besides sometimes the aggressors simply feel like busting someone & they figure they'll get away with it even more easily if they pick a minority. that didn't help the white chap who got shot at a traffic stop for showing his walking stick nor the other one who was shot 21 times as he woke up in bed for reaching out for his flashlight
are white american commoners worth more than non-white american commoners? barely. still same class so don't delude yourself white or not unless you're filthy rich or you're one of them, you're nothing to them cept a milkcow taxpayer & they don't give a **** about your safety (I already pointed out legally speaking it's not even their duty to protect you)

There's a reason why white people get picked on. But they are less likely. Yes, by some measures it turns out that the majority of police shooting deaths are white people...but look at the percentage. White people are around 62-66% of the population (Depends if you add Hispanics into the mix or not). But only 49% of deaths are white people. They are underrepresented. Hispanics are about proportional, 16% of population 19% of those killed (Probably one reason why you don't see so much noise on the issue from Hispanics). Blacks who are 11-13% of the population are over 30% of the deaths (Forgot the exact number but it is over 30%). That means they are underrepresented 3 times! While white people are underrepresented a few tenths under 2 times.

If it was about class, the percentages would represent the racial percentages of social class. So that's your burden. Show me that the percentages match. That there is a correlation between a race's poverty and it's representation in the deaths at the hands of the police.

Now as for the 49% of deaths that are white. Yes, cops are skittish as Madgater pointed out. That has more to do with gun violence and gun culture in the US that makes cops fear that they'll be on the wrong end of a gun barrel at any given moment. Some are more skittish. Then there is the lack of awareness of how some people can react to things like tazers and thus aren't prepared to recognize or react properly when that does happen.

So sodomy should be punished, ummm, they do know that straight couples do that as well, should everyone on Earth, probably including themselves be punished ?

Yes, and you should be punished for even asking that question!

And looting. Never forget the looting. Although how stealing that electronic gear or whatever is supposed to be related to their petitioning the government for redress of grievances is quite beyond me.

I do ask myself though, were those looters actually their to protest or to loot in the first place?

Sorry, I can't dismiss the Minn. shooting as the cop thought he was going for a weapon. He TOLD the cop he was armed. That's not something you do if you're planning on shooting him. As I've said elsewhere, unless there is information that we don't have yet, I can see no justification for the Minn. shooting. That cop was just trigger happy, scared, or maybe even on some sort of power trip. I don't know. But as far as I can tell, he just murdered that motorist.

In my opinion, even if Castile followed the most iron tight deescalating procedure...based on his Fiancee's description, he was dead the moment he left home with the firearm. I don't think there was anything he could have done differently (other than not having a firearm which is his right to do so) to save his life.

I was stopped for a taillight on my way home. I left School late, so it was dark and obvious. I noticed it was out earlier, but there was little I could do. The cop pulled me over, a white officer. He came up, and greeted me the way one would normally great a stranger and then proceeded to say his name and asked me for my license and registration and such. As I was retrieving it he asked me if I had any illegal drugs (the tone was lighthearted followed buy a chuckle). The joke was appreciated. I gave him my documents, he went back and ran them and came back to me and gave me a verbal warning and wished me a good evening.

The Fiancee's description is absolutely nothing like that. Each step is different. Had I told that officer that I had a permit (And gave it to him with the license before speaking) he would have probably asked me to place my hands on the steering wheel and exit the car and inform him where it was. I would off course happily complied. After inspecting the women (Don't know why I wrote that, I meant "weapon" but gosh darn it I am keeping it there because it is funny) he probably would have ended the stop the same way as he actually did.

Cram too many into too small an area, you overload resources, housing, jobs and such, and the ones who fall behind start voting for whomever promises them the most free stuff. There goes your state as the concentrated areas of poverty now dominate your state's politics. Game over.

That's assuming that people will tolerate getting taxed. From where I am sitting, my dad complains more than enough about his taxes and very little about things like health insurance and government handouts. Prime recruit for the GOP. Too bad Trump is too busy calling him a rapist. So far he's voting for Hillary because she isn't calling him a rapist. It's that simple.

[garhkal]

exactly
also speak softly
don't look them in the eyes, look down
preferably begin your sentences with "my lord"
follow all these guidelines, know your place & you'll maximise your chances of survival

Speak softly, agreed.

but the rest must be you trying to be facetious..

And looting. Never forget the looting. Although how stealing that electronic gear or whatever is supposed to be related to their petitioning the government for redress of grievances is quite beyond me.

Or running into electronics stores to loot DURING a natural disaster/right after, like we saw post Katrina...

Sorry, I can't dismiss the Minn. shooting as the cop thought he was going for a weapon. He TOLD the cop he was armed. That's not something you do if you're planning on shooting him. As I've said elsewhere, unless there is information that we don't have yet, I can see no justification for the Minn. shooting. That cop was just trigger happy, scared, or maybe even on some sort of power trip. I don't know. But as far as I can tell, he just murdered that motorist.

Judging by the # of cops who in the past 3 years HAVE been shot making traffic stops though, i can understand if he was scared....

Fair enough. I too don't like their methods of blocking traffic and trashing everything in sight. This militant mentality is just wrong and counter productive.

Its just like prisoners, who riot and BURN/trash the prisons they are living in.. THEN whine about how unfit the place is to live in once they are done.. Makes no damn sense..

I do ask myself though, were those looters actually their to protest or to loot in the first place?

IMO, some were most definitely there to raise hell and loot..

[Coco Pops]

Yeah what's with that?

You are protesting fine, but why break into shops and steal everything. Looting is nothing more then stealing because it's there. Why ?

[thekillman]

Speak softly, agreed.

but the rest must be you trying to be facetious..

It was fairly clearly an allusion to slavery. If black people need to behave in a special way to the police to prevent getting shot, even when they don't have a gun in their hand, something is very very very wrong with justice.

Especially since the police can murder people and walk away free.

[Coco Pops]

It was fairly clearly an allusion to slavery. If black people need to behave in a special way to the police to prevent getting shot, even when they don't have a gun in their hand, something is very very very wrong with justice.

Especially since the police can murder people and walk away free.

That doesn't sit well with me at all. You'd be scared to walk out your front door.

[Annoyed]

That's assuming that people will tolerate getting taxed. From where I am sitting, my dad complains more than enough about his taxes and very little about things like health insurance and government handouts. Prime recruit for the GOP. Too bad Trump is too busy calling him a rapist. So far he's voting for Hillary because she isn't calling him a rapist. It's that simple.

Once the FSA's (Free Shiznit Armies) get their way, the gov. has to levy the taxes to support it. The taxpayers? They don't have a choice, they're outnumbered / outvoted by the FSA's. Aside from leaving the jurisdiction, they have no choice but to pay up.
Which, is why so many choose to leave the jurisdiction. Look at NY state statistics sometime. Our businesses, jobs, and the people who need those jobs have been leaving the state for decades.