The Political Discussion Thread

[Ian-S]

Internet access is a human right under the Human Rights Act, but many people mistake this for meaning "free access to the internet" when it simply means what it says, unrestricted access to the internet (for example the only way you can be stopped from accessing the internet is as punishment for crimes committed, i.e. a Government can't say "we don't like your political views so your banned from the net" etc.).

[Falcon Horus]

There is indeed a difference.

Annoyed is referring to the second, not the first.

[Gatefan1976]

First, if you don't pay your water and electricity bill, the water and electricity companies will cut your supply, will they not? Well, the Palestinians don't pay their bills. The Palestinian Authority owes half a billion dollars for electricity, another $4.5 million for water, $700 00 for sewage and 4.5 million dollars in medical bills for treatments that Palestinians routinely receive in Israeli hospitals. From time to time Israel cuts off some of these services as a warning that bills must be paid, and then the world wide whine about the poor Palestinians deprived of life's comforts begins.

Question.
Does Israel......... "bulk bill" Palestine for these services, or are they individual bills that are not being paid?

[Annoyed]

Internet access is a human right under the Human Rights Act, but many people mistake this for meaning "free access to the internet" when it simply means what it says, unrestricted access to the internet (for example the only way you can be stopped from accessing the internet is as punishment for crimes committed, i.e. a Government can't say "we don't like your political views so your banned from the net" etc.).

And if you really believe that the world plays by those rules, I have this bridge that goes across some swampland I've been wanting to sell. And I mean besides China.

[Annoyed]

I sincerely hope, you never are in the position in which you require any of those basic human rights.

I wonder whether you realize what the lack of clean drinking water does.

From the website of the World Health Organization:

How does safe water impact global health?



Having internet and a cellphone isn't a basic human right -- it's just a means for you to complain about other people having the same stuff as you do. Or hell, the same rights.

I can understand clean potable water; griping about that is over the top. But I am sick and damned tired of every 7th liberal that comes down the pike wanting to declare something else is a basic human right, and the government (meaning other taxpayers & I) have to pay for it.
No, a government provided cell phone is NOT a basic human right.
No, a government provided internet connection is NOT a basic human right.
And some other equally ridiculous luxuries that are basic human rights that I can't think of at the moment.
But I think you get the idea.

[aretood2]

Are you talking about natural rights?

[Gatefan1976]

Are you talking about natural rights?

That would imply understanding.

[Gatefan1976]

I am just gonna link this, it deals with water issues in Israel/Palestine.
https://books.google.com.au/books?id...0bills&f=false

I make no judgement on the source, other than it seems to be well researched.

[Coco Pops]

So Israel, what's your excuse this time?

A faulty watering system?

Ramadan 2016: Israel 'cuts off water supply to West Bank' during Muslim holy month
Source: independent.co.uk
Redirected from: "Israël zet tienduizenden Palestijnen zonder water tijdens ramadan"
Source: demorgen.be



We'll see on the 23rd of June how bonkers.

Haha I just noticed the new Idependence Day movie debuts here on June 23

[Coco Pops]

Hey Gatefan are you an Aussie?

What do you think of our current very long 2 month election cycle?

So much spin, so many TV ads and Turnbull feels like all the LNP did was put a shiny coat on a turd while still trying to push the same bad policies.

[Womble]

A reasonable answer from Womble shall be replied with a reasonable thank you.

I wonder though, how does Palestine ever manage to repay those debts.

They can if they spend less of your tax money on bombs and salaries for Palestinian terrorists jailed in Israel.

A Palestinian doing a jail sentence of 5 years in Israel (usually someone who tried to kill a civilian and failed) is paid $250 by the Palestinian authority; a Palestinian jailed in Israel for life (meaning someone who has successfully murdered civilians) was paid $1000 per month; in 2011, their salary was boosted 300% so they make $4000 now; this is twice the average salary for Israel. If they die, the salary continues to be paid to their family. The Palestinian Authority spends $5 million monthly on prisoner salaries, and $6.5 million on similar salaries to the families of suicide bombers. These payments are prioritized over the pay of civil servants and utility bills.

Speaking of civil servants, the Palestinian Authority pays the salaries of tens of thousands of people who are listed as PA civil servants but have not actually shown up for the job since 2007 or longer. There are 60 000 such people in Gaza alone.

Add to that tons of money that is simply not accounted for. A 2013 EU audit found that out of the total of $3.1 billion given to the PA by the EU alone between 2008 and 2012, some $1.7 billion has simply vanished into thin air. It's almost as if you can't trust a bunch of kleptocratic murderers to responsibly manage a huge pile of cash...

And also, clean water is a human basic right -- since 2010.

Does it say who should pay to provide it, and whether or not Israel has the right or obligation to, say, use military force in order to upgrade the water system for a Palestinian city where the Palestinian government fails to provide that right?

Israel currently provides 30% more water to the Palestinians than it is obligated to provide under the existing agreements. Per capita water use is 150 mcm for Israelis and 140mcm for Palestiinans. 96% of Palestinians have access to running water, which is about the same as neighboring Jordan (97%).

If you had enough knowledge of local geography, I would also go into the reasons why the Palestinian water supply comes exclusively from the Western aquifer that is shared with Israel and not from the Eastern aquifer which they have never bothered to tap into. And the effect of unauthorized wells the Palestinians dig. And the way untreated Palestinian sewage flows into their own water supply while they celebrate having successfully sabotaged an Israeli project to treat their sewage water by pressuring the French company Veolia to abandon it for the same of boycotting Israel.

[Womble]

Question.
Does Israel......... "bulk bill" Palestine for these services, or are they individual bills that are not being paid?

There is no way to bill individually where one does not control the municipalities and has no way to collect or enforce compliance. The billing is mainly through the PA, to my knowledge, and through local authorities in cases where Palestinian municipalities are connected to the Mekorot network not via agreements with the PA.

There's a staggering amount of nonsense built up around the whole water issue. Take the Western aquifer (a.k.a. Mountain aquifer). It straddles the Green Line; geographically speaking most of it is located under the West Bank so the Palestinians claim all of it as theirs. The problem with it is that before 1967, Israel was the exclusive user of the Western Aquifer despite not having control or even being present in the West Bank. The West Bank part of the aquifer, you see, sits underneath rocky mountain areas which are difficult and expensive to tap into, while the Israeli part is in the lowlands under soft, easily drilled soil. In addition, two of the three of the aquifer's basins flow naturally into Israel (from high to low ground as the laws of physics would have it). The vast majority of claims that Israel is "stealing Palestinian water" boils down to the fact that Israel is tapping into the water source that it's been using before any "occupation". When they say on the news (as they often do) that Israel uses 75-80% of the water in the West Bank, it basically means that out of the water of the Western aquifer, 80% is pumped on the Israeli side and 20% is either tapped into by the Palestinians directly or pumped into the West Bank from the Israeli side via the Mekorot company pipeline.

[Gatefan1976]

Hey Gatefan are you an Aussie?

Ahh.......... Yeah

What do you think of our current very long 2 month election cycle?

A little long for us, but certainly better than the constant seeming US one

So much spin, so many TV ads and Turnbull feels like all the LNP did was put a shiny coat on a turd while still trying to push the same bad policies.

It's a turd we are gonna have to swallow I'm afraid Coco. Labour simply spent too much money during it's reign without adequate plans to pay for it, and frankly, I'd rather swallow the turd now than try and stop the river of crap we will have to deal with if we don't.
I have no love for the LNP, especially their social stances, but their must be some financial discipline in play for a few years, and some political stability. Popping off PM's at the rate of once per year on average is certainly not helping us either.

[Falcon Horus]

And if you really believe that the world plays by those rules, I have this bridge that goes across some swampland I've been wanting to sell. And I mean besides China.

For the record, free wifi is readily available in Flanders. They are called hotspots and can be accessed free (slow internet) or for a small fee (faster internet) or free and fast for customers by whomever the hotspot provides.

And then there are places like starbucks who offer free wifi, or trains offering free wifi. It's slow and usually without firewall but it's free.

Haha I just noticed the new Idependence Day movie debuts here on June 23

LOL!!!

They can if they spend less of your tax money on bombs and salaries for Palestinian terrorists jailed in Israel.

Notice how you can never speak good of Palestinians.
You always refer to them as terrorists, without exception. No wonder, you guys don't get along.

Also, I'm fairly certain that at the moment at least my tax money goes entirely into the black hole my government has created over the years. And the more they can tax me, the more they will.

Speaking of civil servants, the Palestinian Authority pays the salaries of tens of thousands of people who are listed as PA civil servants but have not actually shown up for the job since 2007 or longer. There are 60 000 such people in Gaza alone.

Perhaps there simply is no point for them to go into work.

It's almost as if you can't trust a bunch of kleptocratic murderers to responsibly manage a huge pile of cash...

Who in the world can you trust with a pile of money?

Does it say who should pay to provide it, and whether or not Israel has the right or obligation to, say, use military force in order to upgrade the water system for a Palestinian city where the Palestinian government fails to provide that right?

Each country should be able to provide utilities to their population...

Israel currently provides 30% more water to the Palestinians than it is obligated to provide under the existing agreements.

How generous of you... ...more than it's obligated.

[Coco Pops]

As far as the Palestinian issue I think both sides are equally to blame.

Both they and Israel seem intractable.